New C-Dory Enthusiast with lots of questions

Welcome to C-Brats. This is the best boat family on the waternet :wink: and the be all, end all for C-Dory information. One could easily spend several weeks and not get through all the information here.

All good information so far. Les talked about the FJ and short wheel base in towing with relative relation to the trailer length ( the trailer having more control on the tow vehicle in side wind and semi wake etc.) Last season, I swapped trailers, (after 5 years on a single axle) to a tandem. (Both galvanized). I did that in consideration of upcoming plans for long distance towing and the advantages, I feel, of having 4 down instead of only 2 wheels under the load. One of the advantages I did notice (and I tow with a Tundra) is that the tandem does not wander like the single axle did. The single was certainly doable, but the tandem is noticeably less of a tendencey to work back and forth in hi-way grooves or semi wakes.

My Tundra is the older version, so closer to your FJ in size, but I have also pulled with a 3/4T Dodge Cummins, manual 6, and it did not even know the boat was on the hitch. Still got near 20mpg, towing at ~60mph. Real nice tow rig.

As to single hand launching. I do that. Not hard, just takes some planning and it is easy if you have a ramp with a dock along side.

I too, tend to like to stand, often, at the helm. (I'm a lot shorter) so my standard roof is fine --- still have to duck going in and out of the cabin door though. Much of the time standing, I lean forward and rest on the ledge over the companionway. Comfortable, and close to the window, for good visibility.

Good luck with your search. Come visit us at the Friday Harbor CBGT. It will be worth your trip.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

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deneb":36v7aeuo said:
Anyway, I have yet another question to ask you guys. I reading that the 22 has "low windows" meaning that looking out of the front window while standing is pretty much impossible for a person of my height (6'2") is this accurate? Does the extra roof height option (which I am going to do my best to get) change this at all or does the window height remain the same? Is this something to be concerned about? I sometimes like to stand while I'm at the helm and I'm guessing in a boat like this where I am so far forward being able to stand in rough conditions might be important. Then again it sounds like I will be doing 6 knots instead of 25 if things get rough, so maybe it's a non issue.
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This is the first boat I essentially never drive standing up. It's not that I can't, but I find that sitting very upright and balanced (in rough conditions) and more or less riding with the boat's motion is the best way to go. You can not stand directly in from the of the helm and run the boat. You could stand in the companionway and drive it, but like I said, I never do this.

The only thing I miss about the CD-22 is an on-board shower. Some people with camper canvas have solutions to that issue, but I haven't invested in the canvas yet.

Mike
 
deneb":zt1gbqza said:
Anyway, I have yet another question to ask you guys. I reading that the 22 has "low windows" meaning that looking out of the front window while standing is pretty much impossible for a person of my height (6'2") is this accurate? Does the extra roof height option (which I am going to do my best to get) change this at all or does the window height remain the same? Is this something to be concerned about? I sometimes like to stand while I'm at the helm and I'm guessing in a boat like this where I am so far forward being able to stand in rough conditions might be important. Then again it sounds like I will be doing 6 knots instead of 25 if things get rough, so maybe it's a non issue.
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For the most part this is a "sit down" boat. You're typically not running at speeds that require that you stand so that your body acts as a shock absorber. It isn't feasible to stand at the helm with the wheel directly in front of you but you can stand in the center passageway next to the wheel just for a change of pace. You will have to bend down a bit to see out the forward windows and that situation doesn't change with the high top model (only the raised center section of the low top model is moved up another 4" to make the high top version).

deneb":zt1gbqza said:
While I'm at it I might as well share my thoughts on engine selection based on what I've read. I know this is a highly debated topic, and there is no single right answer. Given the choice I am leaning towards twin 50s. Some people tell me if one goes out a single 50 will get the boat on plane. Others have said that a single 50 is not much better than an 8hp kicker, who is right? I don't really fish much unless it's to catch dinner, so I wouldn't say I do it for fun or it will be a major focus of the boat. I am buying this boat for cruising long distances reliably and as trouble free as possible. I would have a kicker if I went the single route, but only to get home I'd have no other use for it. From my research it seems like late model fuel injected 50s will be the best choice for my purpose. Am I on the right track as far as that goes?
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You're correct in that there is no "right" or "wrong" answer and from a technical objective standpoint in makes very little difference whether you have twins or a single and kicker. That really leaves the decision squarely in the hands of the purchaser. There are equal arguments for and against twins and for and against singles; you'll drive yourself nuts if you make it a showdown. My advice is to first go with what you really just want because that's the best reason for the choice honestly. Secondly go with what you can find or purchase. Meaning, if an otherwise perfect CD22 comes up with a single and kicker rather than with twins, unless you simply must have twins, buy the boat with the single because you'll still have just as much fun and enjoyment.

A 50hp engine, as part of a pair of twins, can barely plane the boat (and sometimes not if it's really loaded). However, it's doing this at wide open throttle and the engine is working very very hard. When a prop for a boat with a single 50 is selected it's to meet the manufacturer's Wide Open Throttle (WOT) specification (typically 5,000 to 6,000 rpm). So if you can get, say, 5800 rpm at WOT then running that engine at 4500 rpm is not hurting it. When props for a pair of 50s are selected it's also to obtain that correct WOT range with both engines running (again usually 5,000 to 6,000 rpm).

When you try and run with one engine that engine can no longer reach the specified rpm at WOT, which in reality, means that the engine (if running alone) is severely over-propped. In real world terms that means almost anything above mid-range thottle is really lugging the engine (about like trying to climb a steep grade in overdrive with a manual transmission (an automatic won't let you do that) which is very hard on the engine). So even running 4500 rpm as you usually would with both engines running will really overload an engine running by itself.

So, yes, you might get the boat to plane with one 50 running but unless it's an emergency situation I wouldn't advise it due to the stress you're going to place on the one running engine (and now since you're down to one engine and you're used to two it's a more stressful situation).

A single 40 or 50 can drive the boat faster than an 8 or 9.9 hp kicker but not by as much as one would think if you're trying to be kind to your 40 or 50. For some folks any extra speed is important and it's right (for them) that they should choose to have twins versus a single and kicker. For others they're simply going to run at displacement speeds even with a single 40 or 50 running so the speed when on one engine is not really an issue.

You can easily see that this gets into a back-and-forth argument in a real hurry with no real definitive answers except for the person making the choices (and then only sometimes).

From a purely technical standpoint the simplest system is a single engine, second simplest is a single and a kicker, the most complex is twin engines.

The most honest and valid reasons for having twins are: 1) they make you feel better (which makes the boat more enjoyable to use), and 2) you want them. Really, almost any other explanation is an attempt to "justify" one of those two reasons and I happen to think those two reasons are fully valid all on their own.

Les
 
Look at a 23' Venture a little heavier (1000 pounds) has a little sharper bow entry. The Venture's have a insulated interior does not sweat condensation on you like the uninsulated 22's. Taller windows has a lot more standard features like shore power, battery charger etc. Composite core instead of balsa core a little more room in the cockpit. Can take up to a 150 horsepower. Might as well look at one while you are shopping only draws about 12 inches.
D.D.
 
Thanks very much for all of the well thought out helpful responses. Thanks to you guys I am pretty much ready to pull the trigger on a major purchase and I haven't even seen one of these boats yet. That will change soon though since I am definitely going to be traveling to Seattle next weekend and I plan on dropping in on the Friday Harbor meet. I will be coming into town Friday morning. I could take the ferry over anytime Friday or Saturday. Is there a particular day and time that would work best? Keep in mind I will be attending boatless and will need to be able to take a ferry back to my car at some point. I'm not sure how the ferry system works there. Anyway, I definitely look forward to meeting you guys and seeing the boats I've spent countless hours over the past week reading about. Any insight as to how to plan my trip around this would be greatly appreciated. Maybe a dumb question, but do I need a passport to board the ferry? Looks like it continues into Canada.

I'm glad to hear that if I get tired of sitting I can spend a few minutes standing in the center with the window open. I think knowing I have that option will be nice whether I actually do it often or not. I am pretty much sold on this boat and I have a good idea of the options I need and the options I can live without. After the Friday Harbor meet I plan on aggressively searching for a boat and buying it as soon as I find the right one. I am roughly looking for either twins or a single with a kicker, a tandem axle trailer, hightop 22 Cruiser, camper canvas, wallas stove, shore power, trim tabs, dual batteries, a decent chart plotter with a mid size screen, radar, radio, depth finder & compass. From my research it looks like a new one including motors, trailer, factory options and electronics will cost around $70,000 and a similarly equipped used boat will cost $30k-$55k depending on the year, options, state of the boat etc. Does that sound about right? Obviously with a used one I likely won't get exactly what I want and will have to spend some money on it. If my math is correct I still think I am going to go with a used one though. $70k will require partial financing and the APRs on boat loans are pretty bad. With a used one I can write a check and if I decide to sell it not lose $15,000.

Anyway, now that I've gotten this far I'd like to ask some general questions about purchasing a used boat which is something I have never done before. I will almost certainly be buying it out of state and possibly even be buying it in Canada. Since I am getting a cashiers check for what will probably be the majority of my liquid cash to make this purchase I want to make sure I do it right and don't run into any problems. From what I understand the way to do this will be to get a survey done, then if that checks out go for a sea trail, then if that goes well pay for the boat and obtain the title. If I buy a boat with EFI do you think it's a good idea to have a dealership hook up a scanner to the ECU to verify hours? I think that can be done anyway.

The part here that I really want to make sure I understand is how to properly pay for the boat and obtain a clear title. If there is a good place to read about this stuff please let me know. Forgive me if these questions have been covered. If the seller has the title in hand how can I be sure the title is genuine and everything is legitimate/no liens/not stolen etc? If the seller does not have the title in hand and there is a lien on the boat how do I make sure I am able to obtain the physical clear title once he and/or the lien holder have my money? How far in advance before I take delivery do I need to obtain insurance for the boat and do you have any recommendations for insurance companies? I want to be sure that if I get in an accident on the way home the boat is covered 100%. What about trailer tags and registration, do I have a grace period for that when I buy it and trailer it home from out of state? Sorry for asking a million questions here, but I am pretty much ready to go with this purchase and you guys have been so helpful so far that I figured this would be the best place to ask.
 
Hi, I have sold one boat here on the c-brats, my 22, and bought another , my 27 c-dory, but I have bought and sold 12 to 15 small boats over the years. My first suggestion to you is take a sea trial BEFORE you have a survey done. No reason to spend the money on a survey for a boat if you dont know how it rides first.

Before you go fly or drive to far see if you can get someone, family or friend, to go see the boat first. Just to give it a once over to make sure you are not being lied to. I once drove 3 hours to see a " well cared for " drift boat that had such bad dry rot I was afraid to touch it. I almost hit the guy I was so pissed off. If a c-dory is in my area I would be more then happy to go look for you. Its just a " oh yeah it has a motor and trailer and no holes in the hull" type of inspection. Then you can feel good about driving/flying out to see it.

Craigslist.. I have bought and sold many things on CL. You just have to be careful and watch out for the scams. When I listed my boat on CL someone hacked my listing and relisted for half the price. A guy made the mistake of sending $ to the fake lister to "hold the boat" and lost about $5000 or so. Later when I got the fake ad taken off CL, with help from some folks here, the ripped off buyer called and yelled at me. Thats how I learned he got ripped off. Even thought is was not my fault and nothing I could have done to prevent it I felt really bad for the guy. You just have to be smart and know how to spot the CL scams. NO cashiers check to you , NO Dealing with their shipper who will collect or pay you. No " I am selling for a friend or family member who is over sea's. No " I will hold it for you for a deposit" . If it sounds to go to be true it is.

Surveyors. I have used two for my boats , one for my dads boat and one for the buyer of my boat. I will tell you right now that they all served a purpose but I was not impressed with any of them. In all cases I had to explain or point out very simple things to them. None of them knew a dam thing about out boards motors. They are train in the larger boats and not used to smaller boats. I needed to use two for lending and insurance reasons but I dont think they could have done a good job with out my help. The one the buyer of my 22 hired was a complete waste of time. After hitting the hull with a hammer for twenty minutes ( the hull sides not the bottom) He proclaimed that there was no wood rot in the hull???????? I pointed out that there was no wood in the hull so rot was out of the question. He just looked at me funny. It went on and on like that. But hey he only charged some thing like $400 buck.

I am a Realtor and see a lot of home inspector that could not fine a front door knob if I place there check on it so it does not surprise me that boat surveyors are any different. Like I said I needed them to place a price on the boats for the bank and the insurance company and they just used the amounts I gave them because they had no clue what a c-dory is worth.

If you need some one to look at a engine hire a mechanic not a surveyor. None of the one's I used knew anything about the motors. They just had me run it to see if it ran. None of them pulled the plugs and tested the compression. I did it my self afterwards.

c-dorys are such simple boats that its really easy to check one out. The only thing that can go really bad is the transom and the bottom of the hull where wood core could be rotten. But a moisture meter ( in the right hands) or a small hammer can find any large areas of rot fairly quickly. Other then that and general condition the only other things that can go really wrong are all add on's. Radios, cooktops, downriggers, windlasses etc.. All of which can be replaced or fixed with out to much fuss.

I hope this helps you and like I said if a boat is with in a hours drive of me I would be happy to check it out for you.
 
In the "old days," when I was going to go look at a car/boat etc. to buy, I just took out enough cash and brought it along. That worked fine when I was spending $5000 or less. I'm less inclined to bring $35k along with me :shock:

I thought about a cashier's check, but that presumes you know you will buy "X" boat, and the price (although I guess you could solve the latter by making it for a bit less and bringing cash to cover the last bit). Also, I don't happen to be close to my bank, so getting a cashier's check would be inconvenient at times.

So, I called my bank and asked them for suggestions. They said what many people do is just go and look, and then if they want to buy something, instigate a wire transfer right into the seller's account. The nice thing about that is that you don't have to do anything in advance, and can just go look at things free and easy.

At least with my bank, once you know you want to go ahead, you can fax them a request (to make it easier, they can first fax a pre-printed document to fill out and send back, but you wouldn't have to use that). Then they call to confirm it. An hour or so later the money is in the seller's account. (You may be able to do this online as well as by fax; I'm not sure.)

One possible balk I can see with this is that a seller might not want to give their account number (although this has not been a problem for me); I have read where a seller who was uncomfortable about that simply opened a new account just for this one time use (at the same bank), and then transferred the money over to the usual account and closed the new one. (Although, if the person has ever written a check at the corner store, they've given out their account number to any number of random people.)

I think for me my bank has something like a $20 fee for a wire.

Another method I have used (when I was not going to be able to pick up the boat/car/etc. right away) is simply to write a personal check. By the time I came back to pick up the item the check had cleared and all was good. Of course you have to work out who gets the title, etc. in the meantime, so this may only work out with people you have a good rapport with.

Just a couple of ideas for when you are going to look at things of which you are neither sure whether or not you will buy, nor at what price.

I envy you your going to the Friday Harbor gathering! I so wanted to attend (and figured I would), but I just wasn't able to find a boat/get it there in time (and since I am planning to head there this summer, making two trips back-to-back wasn't practical). I hope I can meet some of the same folks a bit later in the year :thup

:hot

PS: One more note: If you know where you will title/register the boat (normally state of principle use), it can help to check with them ahead of time (website) to see how they title/tax things. It varies quite a bit state-to-state. For example, in some states the trailer is titled at the DMV, and the boat at a waterway department. Some states title motors separately. Some states don't title trailers that other states do, etc.

I also check in advance to see how the seller's state (province) titles things. If that state titles trailers, for example, you want to make sure to get one.

Normally, if you go to a titling state from a non-titling state, it's okay, because the titling state can look up the rules of the prior state. It's only if you come in without a title from a titling state that you have a problem (because then you should have one). Usually if the selling state is a non-titling state you should get a registration or similar.

If it's not a same-state simple sale, I like to cover my bases. So, in addition to any titles I get, I do a CG 1340 bill of sale (Coast Guard form 1340, which you can download), and then also a bill of sale that separates the values for boat, trailer, and (main) motor. It's a tiny bit more paperwork to do, but can save hassles later. It also doesn't hurt to make more than one "original." (Always cracks me up when two or three different departments want an "original" :crook) These documents record all of the serial numbers, dollar amounts, dates, etc.

You can also call your future registration state and go over the details with them if it's not clear. I've found most to be personable and helpful, once you get past the "please listen carefully, as our menu has changed," and the interminable wait on hold.

I have not bought a boat from out of the country, but I have done so with a (non-boat) trailer (Canada --> US). I found that what counted was how my state (of registration) wanted to handle the deal. Before I realized that, I called US customs to ask what to do. They said that since it was over 25 years old and non-motorized, that there was basically no complication. Great! Then when I got to my state, I found out that they wanted an official "importation" at a port, a long and detailed Homeland Security form, and more. Ugh. I managed to solve it without going back to the Canadian border, but I did have to tow the trailer to an International Airport to their customs department. Obviously this is likely not the same as a newer, powered boat, but I just wanted to mention how an individual US state may influence what you need to do more than US customs in general. Something to check, at least.

PPS: Almost forgot trailer tags. Again, this may depend on your state. Some states make it easy and have a "trip permit" (or similar name) that you can buy (inexpensive/online). You buy it and print it out and then you get some number of days of validity. You tape it in the window of your car or etc. (they will have instructions). It's used for this exact purpose, or a one-time move of a vehicle you own that is unregistered, etc.

If your state does not have this, I think it may be a bit less clear. If you buy from a dealer, I think they give you a 30-day tag. Some people just use the plate that is on the trailer (previous owner's), some use a plate from another trailer they own, etc. It probably depends on who you get if you get pulled over, but you could probably make a good case with no tag if you had all the sales paperwork in hand (and if your state does not have a trip permit available) (I haven't ever been pulled over on the way home when I lived in a state without a trip permit, so I don't know.)

I'll be interested to read what anyone else knows about the above.
 
This was a great thread and ironically, might as well have been written by me as I am 6'2" and looking to use the boat for the exact same purposes as the original poster and had the exact same concerns and questions!

Deneb, did you ever end up going to Friday Harbor and meeting folks? What were your thoughts and opinions on the 22? Did you ever end up purchasing one or another C-Dory?
 
First, welcome to the benign bunch of crazy people known as the CBrats.

I scanned the responses, and I could only find two items that may have been missed. Since you're going to be boating at places like Flaming Gorge, I recommend a fuel injected engine over carbs. The performance at altitude is much better. The other thing I would recommend is getting a camper back for cruising. It's nice to have a second dry and shady place to hang out, and they can be folded up in a hurry if you're chasing fish.

See you on the water.[/b]
 
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