Max Transom Rating
- Thread starter Waterball
- Start date
Waterball,
I don't know where to find that info, but Greg(Red Fox) had a 140 hp Johnson 2-stroke and now has a 115 Yamaha 4-stroke on his 22 Classic so I would guess that the transom is strong enough.
The USCG doesn't require boats over 20 feet to have a maximum hp plate. My 1991 22 cruiser has a plate which says recommended hp is 70 and 90 hp is the recommended maximum .
I saw a 22 Classic in Canada with a Honda 90 and it was used to haul freight and passengers to a remote resort.
I don't know where to find that info, but Greg(Red Fox) had a 140 hp Johnson 2-stroke and now has a 115 Yamaha 4-stroke on his 22 Classic so I would guess that the transom is strong enough.
The USCG doesn't require boats over 20 feet to have a maximum hp plate. My 1991 22 cruiser has a plate which says recommended hp is 70 and 90 hp is the recommended maximum .
I saw a 22 Classic in Canada with a Honda 90 and it was used to haul freight and passengers to a remote resort.
Jon - CLou
New member
My 1986 Angler has the original data sticker on it . It reads the same as Nancy H, recommend 70 hp and 90 max. Anything over 90 h.p. will void warranty.
I repowered with a 90hp Honda and I'm very happy with it.
I repowered with a 90hp Honda and I'm very happy with it.
I would give my personal thoughts, which may be considered "mean," so I won't.
Instead, I will quote an article in the Nov. 1989 issue of Small Boats Journal. On page 20 there is an article titled "Outboard Cabin Dories." In a side panel is an article about "C-Dory Origins." From C-Dory origins I'd like to quote a paragraph or two from the designer & builders of the C-Dory.
Before you jump on the fact that a dory likes weight, you should also remember "To help maintain the level attitude of the bow's entry, the boat's center of gravity is located forward of the point of buoyancy." "On a dory or semi-displacement hull," Toland points out, "you'll find that, at rest, the boat will be a little bow heavy.
Those who have C-Dory's with heavy four strokes and heavy loads of fuel at the transom should also read this and give some thought to the balance of their dory.
Instead, I will quote an article in the Nov. 1989 issue of Small Boats Journal. On page 20 there is an article titled "Outboard Cabin Dories." In a side panel is an article about "C-Dory Origins." From C-Dory origins I'd like to quote a paragraph or two from the designer & builders of the C-Dory.
Before you jump on the fact that a dory likes weight, you should also remember "To help maintain the level attitude of the bow's entry, the boat's center of gravity is located forward of the point of buoyancy." "On a dory or semi-displacement hull," Toland points out, "you'll find that, at rest, the boat will be a little bow heavy.
Those who have C-Dory's with heavy four strokes and heavy loads of fuel at the transom should also read this and give some thought to the balance of their dory.
Shaun-
This is one of those things that may change a little with the age of the boat. My "87 Cruiser has a paper yellow tag printed in black at the helm between the wheel housing and the electrical panel to the starboard side.
When I was first considering different motor options with one of the factory folks a couple of years ago, I was told they could "recertify" my boat for 100 hp (it has the 90 max, 70 recommended message on it) by simply sending me a new sticker.
C-Bill-
I firmly agree with your input about the weight forward issue. Within limits, it really helps hold the bow down into the chop without having to use motor trim or trim tabs, which waste energy on trim.
Joe.
This is one of those things that may change a little with the age of the boat. My "87 Cruiser has a paper yellow tag printed in black at the helm between the wheel housing and the electrical panel to the starboard side.
When I was first considering different motor options with one of the factory folks a couple of years ago, I was told they could "recertify" my boat for 100 hp (it has the 90 max, 70 recommended message on it) by simply sending me a new sticker.
C-Bill-
I firmly agree with your input about the weight forward issue. Within limits, it really helps hold the bow down into the chop without having to use motor trim or trim tabs, which waste energy on trim.
Joe.
Joe,
The only reason I went to a two stroke 90 hp on my boat is because I was primarily intending to use my boat at high altitude lakes such as Lake Tahoe, Donner, Pyramid, Boca and the like. At this altitude a two stroke will lose up to 30% of it's HP depending upon the temperature.
The data I presented from Roy & Mark Toland is very specific to dory and semi-displacement boats. It is the basic's from which Naval Architect's determine load and performance.
It's kinda like messing with Mother Nature. Ultimately, there will be a price to pay. The performance of boats is very similar to that of aircraft. When you load all the heavy people in the back of the airplane, it will get off the ground, but it won't fly very far! Yes, I have a pilots lic.
I've tried to post the entire article in the Brats album and can't get it done. I suspect the firewall in my computer.
Bill
Sorry Waterball. I suspected an attempt to push that sled to the MAX! :wink
The only reason I went to a two stroke 90 hp on my boat is because I was primarily intending to use my boat at high altitude lakes such as Lake Tahoe, Donner, Pyramid, Boca and the like. At this altitude a two stroke will lose up to 30% of it's HP depending upon the temperature.
The data I presented from Roy & Mark Toland is very specific to dory and semi-displacement boats. It is the basic's from which Naval Architect's determine load and performance.
It's kinda like messing with Mother Nature. Ultimately, there will be a price to pay. The performance of boats is very similar to that of aircraft. When you load all the heavy people in the back of the airplane, it will get off the ground, but it won't fly very far! Yes, I have a pilots lic.
I've tried to post the entire article in the Brats album and can't get it done. I suspect the firewall in my computer.
Bill
Sorry Waterball. I suspected an attempt to push that sled to the MAX! :wink
You KNEW I'd leap on this one!! :!:
We are very fortunate that the dory shape will handle weight so well.
The metacenter and its relationship to other forces measure the staibility of our favorite boats. Many, many ways to determine this (Charlie, HELP) -- it's a full time profession for a lot of geeks.
Mark T. meant it what he wrote "...to have a slightly bow down trim when at rest in the water." In the late 70's I lived less than a 10 minute walk from the CDory plant -- good coffee, good BS, and many stability discusions. The 22, with a light weight two-stroke, is a beautifully balanced boat. Easily planes at 9-10 knots, very economical cruise at 14-15 knots, nice cruise at 20 knots, with a top speed of 29 knots. 5 NMPG ain't all bad.
Doesn't mean a heavy 4-stroke and heavy kicker, or two 4-strokes, won't do a great job. I've been both ways, and they all work fine. One of the problems of just adding weight forward to offset the heavy aft load is the "hobby horse" effect, so weight distribultion becomes a factor.
El and Bill, with their jillion miles of cruising, have boat loading down to a science, and I'd certainly use any knowledge they are willing to share for planing any long trip.
Red Fox loads very heavily -- and it certainly works for him. He boats in heavy water, is a very experienced skipper, and goes places most of us like to read about, look at the beautiful pictures -- and won't go.
Only load as heavily as you must, distribute your load so you are slightly bow down at rest -- have fun!!
Dusty
We are very fortunate that the dory shape will handle weight so well.
The metacenter and its relationship to other forces measure the staibility of our favorite boats. Many, many ways to determine this (Charlie, HELP) -- it's a full time profession for a lot of geeks.
Mark T. meant it what he wrote "...to have a slightly bow down trim when at rest in the water." In the late 70's I lived less than a 10 minute walk from the CDory plant -- good coffee, good BS, and many stability discusions. The 22, with a light weight two-stroke, is a beautifully balanced boat. Easily planes at 9-10 knots, very economical cruise at 14-15 knots, nice cruise at 20 knots, with a top speed of 29 knots. 5 NMPG ain't all bad.
Doesn't mean a heavy 4-stroke and heavy kicker, or two 4-strokes, won't do a great job. I've been both ways, and they all work fine. One of the problems of just adding weight forward to offset the heavy aft load is the "hobby horse" effect, so weight distribultion becomes a factor.
El and Bill, with their jillion miles of cruising, have boat loading down to a science, and I'd certainly use any knowledge they are willing to share for planing any long trip.
Red Fox loads very heavily -- and it certainly works for him. He boats in heavy water, is a very experienced skipper, and goes places most of us like to read about, look at the beautiful pictures -- and won't go.
Only load as heavily as you must, distribute your load so you are slightly bow down at rest -- have fun!!
Dusty
Captains Cat
New member
Dusty, are you calling me a GEEK??? :crook
Been a long time since I did stability calculations, has something to do with furlongs per fortnight or some such thing. I do know that my 94 CD 22 is a bit down by the bow at rest, so much so that the water that falls in the cockpit runs through the little hole in the cabin door bulkhead and gets my throw rug wet! UGH. I don't have that mid ships bilge pump and sump that some have so I have plugged that hole with a rubber stopper.
Heavy is good, even or slight bow down trim is good, no list when moving slowly and loaded is good. I'll do the calculations when I can find my books but with this flat bottom and beam, the righting arm we have (the tendency of the craft to right itself from a hard roll) is pretty large.
I have rolled over 50 degrees on a destroyer and had my doubts that it would come back but it did! We lost all our boats, topside ladders, broke many porthole glasses took green water over the bridge and bridge wings and lost the fiberglass housing over the 5"-54 Cal Gun. Never want to do that again. Firmly believe in low, fixed weight. Full water tank, fuel tanks, tools kept low in storage, etc all help. Don't move around in heavy weather but if you have to, hold on firmly (and not to the table). Install those overhead grab rails, I have a crewmember with a broken ankle that wishes I'd had them two years ago!
Charlie
Been a long time since I did stability calculations, has something to do with furlongs per fortnight or some such thing. I do know that my 94 CD 22 is a bit down by the bow at rest, so much so that the water that falls in the cockpit runs through the little hole in the cabin door bulkhead and gets my throw rug wet! UGH. I don't have that mid ships bilge pump and sump that some have so I have plugged that hole with a rubber stopper.
Heavy is good, even or slight bow down trim is good, no list when moving slowly and loaded is good. I'll do the calculations when I can find my books but with this flat bottom and beam, the righting arm we have (the tendency of the craft to right itself from a hard roll) is pretty large.
I have rolled over 50 degrees on a destroyer and had my doubts that it would come back but it did! We lost all our boats, topside ladders, broke many porthole glasses took green water over the bridge and bridge wings and lost the fiberglass housing over the 5"-54 Cal Gun. Never want to do that again. Firmly believe in low, fixed weight. Full water tank, fuel tanks, tools kept low in storage, etc all help. Don't move around in heavy weather but if you have to, hold on firmly (and not to the table). Install those overhead grab rails, I have a crewmember with a broken ankle that wishes I'd had them two years ago!
Charlie
Charlie!
50 degrees as in fiyive zero? :shock: :shock: :shock:
Now THAT's a ride.
We're lucky to have these little guys with so much built-in stability. Like you, I like everything low and sometimes wish the stinkin' grab rails were on the cabin sole... doing some unofficial stability testing last week and went broadside on a crest. Everything was tied down, so not a worry because these little guys are sooo nicely balanced. Securely stowed is danged important and doesn't get enough emphasis. When you are on beams end and get a sudden weight shift unpleasantness can surely develop.
BTW I was a witness to one when the three DD's turned turtle when they were pumped out for refueling in a typhoon. :sad :sad
I'm a coward so DD's ain't my style.
Dusty
50 degrees as in fiyive zero? :shock: :shock: :shock:
Now THAT's a ride.
We're lucky to have these little guys with so much built-in stability. Like you, I like everything low and sometimes wish the stinkin' grab rails were on the cabin sole... doing some unofficial stability testing last week and went broadside on a crest. Everything was tied down, so not a worry because these little guys are sooo nicely balanced. Securely stowed is danged important and doesn't get enough emphasis. When you are on beams end and get a sudden weight shift unpleasantness can surely develop.
BTW I was a witness to one when the three DD's turned turtle when they were pumped out for refueling in a typhoon. :sad :sad
I'm a coward so DD's ain't my style.
Dusty
Little Catelyn
New member
Thanks Sawdust and C-Bill for shedding some light on the weight distribution issue -- glad I kept up with this topic.
There have been many threads on this board that discuss the benefits of a heavier engine(s) to provide added weight astern in a following sea, and then the need for trim tabs to keep the bow down heading into chop. While this seems to conflict with Toland's comments, it appears to work for many on this board. Hmmm?
I've always felt that a heavy engine seemed counter-productive, but then I don't have the experience or knowledge of these boats to make an educated opinion. Heck, I don't even have a C-Dory, yet... But I have ordered a 22' cruiser with one of those new E-Tec 90's. I don't know how the E-Tec's weight compares with some of the older 2-strokes. Will this engine be too heavy to have the bow down at rest? I like the fact that the E-Tec is lighter than many of the new engines -- if I do need more weight back there I could always add a sand bag or two; easier than finding that you wished you purchased a lighter engine!
Corwin
There have been many threads on this board that discuss the benefits of a heavier engine(s) to provide added weight astern in a following sea, and then the need for trim tabs to keep the bow down heading into chop. While this seems to conflict with Toland's comments, it appears to work for many on this board. Hmmm?
I've always felt that a heavy engine seemed counter-productive, but then I don't have the experience or knowledge of these boats to make an educated opinion. Heck, I don't even have a C-Dory, yet... But I have ordered a 22' cruiser with one of those new E-Tec 90's. I don't know how the E-Tec's weight compares with some of the older 2-strokes. Will this engine be too heavy to have the bow down at rest? I like the fact that the E-Tec is lighter than many of the new engines -- if I do need more weight back there I could always add a sand bag or two; easier than finding that you wished you purchased a lighter engine!
Corwin
Corwin,
You are absolutely 100 percent welcome to come to Cornet Bay and run my 22 with the E-Tec - or come ride with me in the pass with outgoing current against the wind. Sporty and interesting.
Charlie (that old goat on the other coast) is spot on. The dory hull will take the weight as long as you can adjust your on-board weight so you are a bit bow down in the water. I have trim tabs, but run with them up most of the time because they are extra drag. Trimming down when driving into a heavy chop makes them worth the install, and of course they are good for lateral trim too.
Dusty -- gotta go BBQ the ling.
You are absolutely 100 percent welcome to come to Cornet Bay and run my 22 with the E-Tec - or come ride with me in the pass with outgoing current against the wind. Sporty and interesting.
Charlie (that old goat on the other coast) is spot on. The dory hull will take the weight as long as you can adjust your on-board weight so you are a bit bow down in the water. I have trim tabs, but run with them up most of the time because they are extra drag. Trimming down when driving into a heavy chop makes them worth the install, and of course they are good for lateral trim too.
Dusty -- gotta go BBQ the ling.
Little Catelyn
New member
Dusty,
Wow! I'ld LOVE to just doesn't seem to say enough! Thank you for such a gracious offer. Please send me a PM when I could join you, or just to exchange phone numbers.
I haven't heard anything lately, but if my boat hasn't fallen behind again I would expect her to be ready for shipment to E.Q. sometime after the middle of this month. Well, a guy can hope...
Some time ago, Les told me that not only hulls, but trailers, outboards and electronics might be in short supply. I was hoping to avoid the trailer purchase, but think that I will probably need the outboard. Like several awaiting new arrivals, I too have ordered the C-80. If it works out that I take delivery before electronics are installed, what could/should I do? Hopefully, I can live without radar for a little while. And I might manage without a chartplotter and GPS for a little while. Wouldn't want to find out that I should have waited for a depth sounder. Guess I should start shopping for one of those backup compasses that has a suction-cup mount -- well, I'll use it for a backup later.
Thanks again,
Corwin
Wow! I'ld LOVE to just doesn't seem to say enough! Thank you for such a gracious offer. Please send me a PM when I could join you, or just to exchange phone numbers.
I haven't heard anything lately, but if my boat hasn't fallen behind again I would expect her to be ready for shipment to E.Q. sometime after the middle of this month. Well, a guy can hope...
Some time ago, Les told me that not only hulls, but trailers, outboards and electronics might be in short supply. I was hoping to avoid the trailer purchase, but think that I will probably need the outboard. Like several awaiting new arrivals, I too have ordered the C-80. If it works out that I take delivery before electronics are installed, what could/should I do? Hopefully, I can live without radar for a little while. And I might manage without a chartplotter and GPS for a little while. Wouldn't want to find out that I should have waited for a depth sounder. Guess I should start shopping for one of those backup compasses that has a suction-cup mount -- well, I'll use it for a backup later.
Thanks again,
Corwin
Captains Cat
New member
Corwin, you can definitely do without the trailer unless you find you want to go to a lake :lol: or there's some land somehow between where you are and where you want to be. If you decide to forgo the outboard, would definitely recommend about 4 long oars and not going anywhere without 3 large friends. :shock:
Charlie [that old goat on the other coast, first I'm a geek then a goat...sheesh :lol: Hope the ling was good!!]
So what we all seem to be agreeing on is that :
1. The natural balance of a relatively lightly loaded dory hull with a light engine and slightly bow down attitude at rest is the designed mode.
2. As weight is added, particulary in the stern, the boat begins to NEED or even REQUIRE trim tabs to restore the balance under way.
3. This, in turn, dictates that the skipper make adjustments as quickly as conditions change, in the more extreme form "flying" the boat with the trim tabs.
4. Thus as we gradually overload the dory hull with weight, especially aft unbalanced weight, we're actually using extra power from the motor through the trim tabs to simulate the natural light balanced handling of the hull.
5. The importance of this is two fold:
A. The heavier, aft over loaded hull requires trim tabs. (No wonder some skippers upon adding tabs suddenly wonder how they ever got along without them.) Conversely, keeping the boat light and in a natural balanced trim minimizes their need.
B. Once one loads the boat up with weight and adds the tabs, the requirements on the skipper to use them effectively go up proportionately.
So there's NO MYSTERY about the difference between the light natural balanced dory mode and the heavier, weighted down, powered up, and trim tab controlled FLYING CARGO MODE, just two ends of the spectrum with most of us somewhere along the line connecting the two with some of us wondering why they both work! Joe.
1. The natural balance of a relatively lightly loaded dory hull with a light engine and slightly bow down attitude at rest is the designed mode.
2. As weight is added, particulary in the stern, the boat begins to NEED or even REQUIRE trim tabs to restore the balance under way.
3. This, in turn, dictates that the skipper make adjustments as quickly as conditions change, in the more extreme form "flying" the boat with the trim tabs.
4. Thus as we gradually overload the dory hull with weight, especially aft unbalanced weight, we're actually using extra power from the motor through the trim tabs to simulate the natural light balanced handling of the hull.
5. The importance of this is two fold:
A. The heavier, aft over loaded hull requires trim tabs. (No wonder some skippers upon adding tabs suddenly wonder how they ever got along without them.) Conversely, keeping the boat light and in a natural balanced trim minimizes their need.
B. Once one loads the boat up with weight and adds the tabs, the requirements on the skipper to use them effectively go up proportionately.
So there's NO MYSTERY about the difference between the light natural balanced dory mode and the heavier, weighted down, powered up, and trim tab controlled FLYING CARGO MODE, just two ends of the spectrum with most of us somewhere along the line connecting the two with some of us wondering why they both work! Joe.
"Some time ago, Les told me that not only hulls, but trailers, outboards and electronics might be in short supply."
Before we forget this comment, what does it mean?
Is this just the summertime boating season using up the yearly inventory?
Is the Department of Homeland Security buying so many patrol/enforcement units that only Bayliners will be left on the market?
Maybe Les can fill us in on this if no one else knows! Joe.
Before we forget this comment, what does it mean?
Is this just the summertime boating season using up the yearly inventory?
Is the Department of Homeland Security buying so many patrol/enforcement units that only Bayliners will be left on the market?
Maybe Les can fill us in on this if no one else knows! Joe.
Joe,
Not the way it worked in my 5 22s. I rarely run with any nose down trim at any load condition -- UNLESS required by water conditions. If I'm almost on plane -- in heavy weather usually -- bow down trim will lift the stern and increase fuel efficiency. I normally only use the tabs for lateral control. But yes, I do trim bow-down running into a heavy chop -- and that increases fuel consumption. :cry :cry
Because I'm old 'n' poor (well, compared to Mike, Bill, et al -- aka deep pockets :wink
my primary cruising gauge is the MPG gadget. With the weight of the anchor, windlass, and rode -- plus heavy tool box, extra downrigger weights etc. all stowed securily forward, my fore-aft balance is usually good. The co-pilot seat ballast :wink: plus the full water tank offset old Blubber Gut plus a starboard mounted kicker. If there's a hundred pound halibut in the cockpit forget what I just wrote!!!
It is 100 NM each way to my favorite halibut hole - gas was 3.19 yesterday at our marina. Sure agree with, "Yes, Dear, fish is only ____ per pound." But, the 5 NMPG with the 22 vs the 2 NMPG with the Orca sure makes scanning the dinner menu at Neah Bay mo betta.
Ling is open, so I'm outa here.
Dusty
Not the way it worked in my 5 22s. I rarely run with any nose down trim at any load condition -- UNLESS required by water conditions. If I'm almost on plane -- in heavy weather usually -- bow down trim will lift the stern and increase fuel efficiency. I normally only use the tabs for lateral control. But yes, I do trim bow-down running into a heavy chop -- and that increases fuel consumption. :cry :cry
Because I'm old 'n' poor (well, compared to Mike, Bill, et al -- aka deep pockets :wink
my primary cruising gauge is the MPG gadget. With the weight of the anchor, windlass, and rode -- plus heavy tool box, extra downrigger weights etc. all stowed securily forward, my fore-aft balance is usually good. The co-pilot seat ballast :wink: plus the full water tank offset old Blubber Gut plus a starboard mounted kicker. If there's a hundred pound halibut in the cockpit forget what I just wrote!!!It is 100 NM each way to my favorite halibut hole - gas was 3.19 yesterday at our marina. Sure agree with, "Yes, Dear, fish is only ____ per pound." But, the 5 NMPG with the 22 vs the 2 NMPG with the Orca sure makes scanning the dinner menu at Neah Bay mo betta.
Ling is open, so I'm outa here.
Dusty
Dusty-
I agree with your points!
The way the post was worded implies that ANY additional weight requires the use of trim tabs. The huge and flat planing surface of the C-Dory hull accommodates quite a bit of additional weight as long as the loading is BALANCED. The emphasis should have been that significant additional weight AFT requires trim tab adjustment proportionately. I've edited it slightly to reflect that emphasis. Good luck with the lings! Joe.
I agree with your points!
The way the post was worded implies that ANY additional weight requires the use of trim tabs. The huge and flat planing surface of the C-Dory hull accommodates quite a bit of additional weight as long as the loading is BALANCED. The emphasis should have been that significant additional weight AFT requires trim tab adjustment proportionately. I've edited it slightly to reflect that emphasis. Good luck with the lings! Joe.
This stuff can get out of hand in a hurry! Shux, the difference in weight between the 2-stroke and a 4-stroke main engine (any) is only 80 pounds or so. I always run as light as possible -- only the fuel I need plus a reserve. Little water -- but if I had another couple aboard and was heading out for a long weekend or more -- totally different story. If the only variable is weight -- the heavier you are the more fuel you burn. Period.
My main thrust, which escaped, was to keep a balanced boat and use the trim tabs only when needed. Sorry it got away from me. :roll:
Love my C Dory! Gone fishin'
Dusty
My main thrust, which escaped, was to keep a balanced boat and use the trim tabs only when needed. Sorry it got away from me. :roll:
Love my C Dory! Gone fishin'
Dusty