Lowrance LMF200 Raymarine C80 project update.

S

Sneaks

New member
Project: Give the Jenny B fuel flow measurement capability

Since, IMHO, the Navman 3100 is too big for my C-22 helm station and all Navman fuel flow meters are tough to get, I chose to experiment with the Lowrance LMF-200 multifunction gauge and fuel flow sensor package. ($149 complete) and attempt to integrate it with the Raymarine C80 Seatalk2 system.

This is complete NMEA 2000 system for 150 smacks!! It includes termination resistors, two "T"'s, a 12 ft. extension cable, the alarm and the DC cord. It WILL NOT WORK in NMEA 182 environments but it is definitely a stand alone flow meter. One would be horribly underutilizing it's capabilities which are, in fact, more than what the Navman is capable of.

Installing the gauge is a snap. Requires a 2 1/8" hole saw and the entire meter is 2 3/8" in diameter. Installing the fuel sensor is just as easy, with the caveat that the sensor arrow must point directly up and must be installed after a good fuel filter.

The sensor lead is long enough to reach just about to the rear of the helm seat cabinet and that's where I put the first "T", then the extension cable. (way too long) was fed up behind the dash to a second "T" which has the other termination resistor and power cord. I tapped both dash light power and NEMA 2000 power from the ignition wire.

Here's where more parts are needed. 2 ft. LowranceNet extension cable and a third "T". Both are carried at Cabalas and Lowrance direct. The second T screws into the first T and the extention cord goes to the Raymarine C80 Seatalk2 socket.

Oops, there are no existing adapters from LowranceNet to Seatalk2. You must also purchase a Seatalk2 cable that fits the C80, cut the cables and splice the Seatalk plug to the Lowrance plug. Easy done since both cables use the same color code: Blue/white data, red/black 12vDC/ground and the shield ground.

IT WORKS

Static tests show fuel flow both on the C-80 AND the LM200. Also shows position on the LM200, and if it does that, the LM200 is also getting speed etc., from the C80

There are some minor glitches not covered by the manuals, such as one has to disable the Seatalk2 alarm in C-80 setup and make sure to search for and configure the fuel flow sensor plus set the LM200 timeout to 10 seconds if you're old and slow, but so far I get valid fuel flow readings on the C80 and my LM200 is set for two displays: Fuel flow and MPG. Enough for a start!

The learning curve is slow for me but the potential is well worth the effort. Lowrance has a winner as does Raymarine. OBTW, ETEC engines can also be interfaced to the NMEA 2000 bus. I wonder if Yamaha's can?

Added trivia: Raymarine Seatalk2 and LowranceNet are both simply NMEA2000 bus with proprietary connectors.

My next project is to get the fuel flow data to appear up in the C80 data bar rather than on the engine data page. Prolly need to contact Raymarine on that one and their tech support is still struggling with the fact that the C80 is NMEA 2000 capable....


Don
 
Don,

Thanks for the information, sounds like an inexpensive alternative to the Navman or Floscan. I've been looking at both. Although mine would be for a diesel application in a proposed R-25 C Ranger with Raymarine C80 system. I'll look into it...
 
Got the Jenny B out today briefly to test the Lowrance fuel flow gauge. Works great. Here's a quick photo of the gauge in "Fuel Economy" mode showing 4.19 mpg at 3300 rpm. Looks to be in the ballpark considering the sensor is still uncalibrated and may, in fact, be operating off of paddle wheel speed through the C80 instead of GPS speed. No attempt was made to trim the boat or fine tune any of the myriad of settings required to get this complex little beastie operating correctly.

Should be able to run some in depth testing soon, but everything works as planned! Can anybody tell me how to minimize the gauge glare/reflections while taking these photos?

fecon.sized.jpg

Don
 
Don,

This is where a polarizing filter comes in very handy! Depending on the filter you may have to rotate it until the glare goes away (A pair of polarized sunglasses will sometimes work in a pinch).

Other than that, you can try holding a sheet of paper so that the only visible glare is from the paper. Ideally the paper would be photo grey in color but in reality I think so long as the color is the same across the gauge you would be OK...
 
Thanks Gary. I do have a polarizing filter. Rarely use it 'cause it's so dark, but I'll try it.

Tom, sounds like a great solution if I'm moored but I really want to take dynamic shots at various speeds and doing that at night with a cabin light on would scare hell outta me. My night vision ain't what it used to be and even though gas prices have emptied much of the bay of recreational boaters, I still pinch buttonholes in my shorts going much over 10 knots at night.

The install is really easy and a very inexpensive way to move into NMEA2000 and the gauge is scaled so it doesn't take up much helm space. Hardest part is finding the Raymarine Seatalk2 1 meter cable, part number E25041 used to make a Seatalk2 to LowranceNet adapter.



Don
 
This NMEA2000 stuff is really cool. If I were to rig a new C-Dory today I would definitely start with a NMEA2000 bus. Probably, because of it's simplicity and price, Lowrance, but stick with Raymarine for everything else.

Everything works as planned with only one exception: At this point, the Raymarine C and E series displays cannot put engine data on the data bar. This is a function of Raymarine firmware and I suspect it will soon be available just as "environment" data is now.

Lessons learned:

If one does not wish to interface the data between Raymarine and Lowrance, one can simply install a Lowrance GPS puck, plug it into the LowranceNet bus and give not only instant full functionality to the LMF200 but gain a fairly inexpensive backup GPS. The total cost of puck and meter is less than the Navman 3100, takes up less room and, more importantly, is in stock.

There is a Bennett Trim Tab Position Sensor soon to be available from Lowrance. Now that would be truly nice to see on the C80 data bar as an inexpensive alternative to the Bennett indicator.

Many of the newer outboards are adding or already have NMEA2000 data output.

Gonna be nice when everything is displayed on an E120, including tach, fuel economy, trim tab position, engine condition/alarms etc.

Don
 
Don- (This is not really directed at you, of course, but the marine electronics industry-you're just somebody knowledgeable to rant to!)


Hooey, Hooey, Hooey!!!

You're an expert on all of this electronic wizardry, and I'm fortunately out of the loop on an inland lake, but.........

This stuff is a lot o' unnecessary complications!

What the NMEA needs to do is standardize everything possible and design all electronic marine components so that a laptop computer with a suitable universal navigational program can accept uniform standardized imputs through a common design marine specific buffer device so that all components can be integrated and displayed regardless of their manufactuer or origin. Charts and memory devices should be standardized on conventional memory devices like CD's or memory cards and the whole shooting match made into something simple and manageable. One single communication format between devices would be implicit and defined.

But I guesss the manufactuers are still trying to carve out their own nitche in the market with their proprietary designs to prevent free competition in the marketplace and hog what they can. Makes a hell of a mess for the consumer, though!

Sorry, just had to get this off my chest--it bugs me a lot that this is what is happening!!!

But from what you're saying above, it is GRADUALLY headed in that direction---GOOD!!!


Joe.
 
Sea Wolf":1satdcdc said:
Don- (This is not really directed at you, of course, but the marine electronics industry-you're just somebody knowledgeable to rant to!)

Joe.
Click to expand...

Engineers are the Guru standard, Joe. They have to satisfy themselves that it'll work 100% first time every time before putting their reputation on the line. There's an old saying in manufacturing circles - at some point you have to shoot the engineer and go into production otherwise it'll stay in engineering forever. I think TyBoo Mike might be able to expound on that subject with decades of authority....

I'm just an old ham/ex technician who has run across (and jury rigged around) proprietary crap for decades and ain't afraid to heat up a soldering iron and go for it. My rule is "what will it cost me if it doesn't work?" In this case, the only cost was two small cables and a Lowrance T. Maybe $40. That's 9 gallons of gas at our local marina.

Actually, both NMEA183 and NMEA2000 can be "reached" via the old fashion PC serial bus which morphed into the PS2 and USB bus. It just takes a software type to "make it so."

If it were my choice, I'd like to see a 15" 16 X9 aspect marine approved touch screen monitor mounted at the helm with a small computer located remotely that handles everything. For anything that can't be "touch screened," jack a keyboard in at the helm. Laptops are nice, but not my cuppa on the water.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Joe. Unfortunately, the big guys want to keep their new developments in house. They conform to the standards, but it's like pulling teeth to get info from 'em.
 
The NMEA2000 bus is simply a CANBUS system used by many autos. It won't be long before someone takes the I/O that they use for autos and uses it for I/O on the NMEA2000 bus. In fact that would be pretty easy. Then you just need to program up the GUI and you are set. Maybe we should talk with the folks at RosePoint Navigation to see if they will pony up the programming for their Coastal Explorer... Oh wait. Then it'll cost a grand to get it... Hmmm maybe not!

Don,

I'm in total agreement with you. Only I think it would be a 10" touchscreen rather than the 15" as room to put it will be tight. Or better yet 2 or 3 of them (multi-monitors are awsome!). All going to the computer mounted under the dash in a quick disconnect mount so I can take it inside when I get home for other things :) Oh, and the keyboard and tracball (no room for the mouse) would be bluetooth for ease of use.
 
I also have a raymarine C-80 and a lowrance EP-60R, I hooked it up directly to a 2ft seatalk2 cable and spliced the cables black/black, white/white, red/red and blue/blue.
I do receive packets on the C-80 from the fuel sensor, but nothing is marked under gph on the C-80.
you talk about searching for the EP-60R, I have not done that and I do not know how to do that, could you please explain how to search for the fuel sensor? I have searched every menu in the C-80 with no success.

thanks in advance for your help,

Sam
 
Sam, I developed that kludge back in 2006 when Lowrance first came out with the LMF-200 gauge with sensor and I wanted to use it as a cheap alternative to the Navman fuel sensor. Lowrance didn't offer a GPS puck for the NMEA2000 bus at the time! You indicate that you have the sensor, yes. Do you have the LMF-200 gauge as well? If so, your first task is to configure the EP-60 to work correctly with the LMF-200, and that's what I refer to when I say "search for the EP-60." The gauge searches for the sensor and the sensor must be configured by the LMF-200 to work correctly. All in your LMF-200 manual. The gauge will automatically use the C-80's GPS input to fully enable the LMF-200 functions.

Once that's done, you have a fully functional fuel monitoring system which can compute MPG, GPH, fuel remaining in the tank(s), and give you lots of other info including position, speed etc.

Notice I didn't say anything about the C80 except the gauge receiving GPS info up to this point?

Now, after you go get the gauge working in all respects (position will flash as if there is an error - there is NOT) you can address the C-80 display. I was only able to create a custom page on the C-80 that showed GPH/MPG. Nothing fancy, in fact it was far easier to read the damn gauge than mess with custom pages so I quit that aspect and left it to the serious tweakers.

Sorry, that's all the help I can give you.

On another subject, a year later I bought the Lowrance GPS puck, connected it to the NMEA2000 bus and cured the position "flashing". I had to remove the connection to the C80 because it got confused with position info from two GPS pucks; it's own and the Lowrance. I did disconnect the Raymarine puck with the Lowrance puck on the system and found the Raymarine could use either puck but not simultaneously. Good to know if you're at sea and one of the pucks die.

Since I no longer own that boat, I can't help you much more than via memory. All I know is that I was totally happy with the way the gauge/sensor worked and after a few calibrations it was never off more than a gallon when it came to fill time.

Don
 
Don, what engine did you have on that boat? I discussed flow meters for my 22 with twin Honda 40s with Les at EQ and he was of the opinion that the 40s sucked so little fuel that it was difficult to get meaningful data. For that reason I probably won't invest in fuel flow meters unless and until I repower with Suzuki -- which won't be for a couple of years, if at all.

Warren
 
Warren, Charlie's right. I had one of the first F75 EFI Yamahas. Even delayed my dealer installation 'till he could get one. Great engine!

With that said, Les at EQ was very right. The Lowrance sensor - like most any turbine based sensor - is pretty darn innacurate at low flow rates. You might get better accuracy putting the sensor into a fuel hose before it splits to both engines, but that's total flow not individual engine flow which I assume you wanted.

Good luck. This whole NMEA2000 exercise in 2006 was lots of fun. Since that time I think Lowrance has changed it's proprietary connections for standard ones but that's an assumption based on a casual look at the hardware. Raymarine still hangs on to proprietary as a profit generator. :roll:

Don
 
Sneaks,

I do not have an LMF-200, do I need one? I was told that by splicing the four wires together I should see the data from the sensor, is that incorrect?
I do see data coming in from the sensor in the C-80 but nothing displays on the screen.

I guess I could buy an LMF-200 and see if that works.

thanks a lot for your help,

Sam
 
sammythebu11":2kztf427 said:
I do not have an LMF-200, do I need one? I was told that by splicing the four wires together I should see the data from the sensor, is that incorrect?

Sam
Click to expand...

Sam, you must set up a working NMEA bus, which includes proper terminal resistors at the ends of the bus plus the 12 volts before the C-80 will recognize any data from the sensor. You can do it without the LMF-200 gauge, but I can almost guarantee you won't be satisfied with the result. Essentially you must dedicate one full page (screen) on your C-80 to get only the fuel flow data. Nothing else. I had a screen devoted to radar, another to the fishfinder, and a third to chart plotter. A 4th for fuel flow just wasn't worth it for me. YMMV

The LMF-200 kit I bought came with the proper resistor terminal connectors and everything to set up the bus. Adding the fuel sensor was just a matter of plug and play then configure and calibrate.

So yah, I highly recommend you get either one of the two gauges available. The LMF-200 is small and unobtrusive. You can see mine in the third post of this thread. The LMF-200 can display lots of info by selecting which one you want to monitor. I have Fuel Economy selected and it shows I was getting 4.19 mpg at 3300 RPM in a fairly loaded C-22 with full fuel tanks, full water tank, and two people on board.

Don
 
Don,

thanks a lot for your help, I really appreciate it.
I understand that I need a NMEA bus running before I can plug in the C-80 and the EP-60R to each other now, that's not what I was told by raymarine before I bought the sensor.... go figure.
from what you are saying, I can setup a NMEA bus and not need a gauge if all I want to get out of the sensor is GPH, right?
I found this nmea bus on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/GARMIN-NMEA-200...ultDomain_0&hash=item2c55ded7ba#ht_2486wt_913
but then I would need to re-splice the sensor and buy a new cable to splice the seatalk2 cable to the NMEA bus, which would be another 45-50$, right?
I can't find a LMF-200 for sale anywhere, all I can find is the LMF-400 but that one is over 200$. I have to call lowrance to see if that one comes with the NMEA bus also.

thanks a lot for all your help,

Sam
 
Good lord, Sam, you must not have had your glasses on. Click here and you'll find quite a few places that sell it. Even West Marine!

Again, when I bought my LMF-200 with sensor it included the stuff in your Ebay link and it was $149 in 2006. I have no idea what is included in the current Lowrance package. Back then they didn't even have a "lowrance net" no radar, no GPS puck, no nothing. DIY was the order of the day.

Good luck.

Don

A an added note, the latest version of the LMF-200 has more capabilities than I had ever dreamed of in 2006:

Capable of displaying the following NMEA 2000 data: paddlewheel speed, GPS speed, tachometer, battery voltage, alternator voltage, engine temperature, water pressure, engine oil pressure, fuel pressure, boost pressure, transmission oil pressure, atmospheric pressure, temperature, depth, engine loads, engine hours, fuel flow, fuel economy, fuel remaining, fuel used, fuel range, trip fuel used, seasonal fuel used, engine synchronizer, fluid level, GPS position, trim tab position, engine trim position, and engine alarms and warnings
 
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