Kicker Installation on 26 Venture

M

mathias999us

New member
Hi Folks,

I'm on track to take delivery of a 2009 26 Venture later this week, and I will finally be a real "C-Brat" :)

I'd like to install a kicker on this boat. Primary uses for me will be redundancy, and the occasional slow cruising or trolling. I've only installed outboards on small aluminum fishing boats before, so I wanted to run my plan by the group here and see if it sounds reasonable.

The boat currently has a 2010 Suzuki 175 on it, so I want to get another Suzuki to match and keep with the same motor brand. So, after researching, I think I've settled on the DF9.9TH (high thrust model). I also want to get it in a tiller version, and get one of those quick-release steering connector rods to optionally connect it to the main. My thinking is that if I have the tiller version, I'll have the option of popping the steering link off and driving the boat from the cockpit, but I would also be able to clip the steering connector back in place, secure the tiller handle in the up position with a bungie or similar, and drive the boat from the helm. I don't plan to install throttle or shift controls at the helm for the kicker. I won't be going that fast with a kicker, so throttle and gear shift changes would be made by just walking back to the kicker.

So, my questions:

1) Does this seem like an appropriate kicker motor for this boat? It'll be a power tilt/trim model with electric start. I think it comes in around 120-130lbs. It seems like this would be enough power to get me to max displacement speed which is all I could hope to get out of a kicker anyway?

2) Does my plan about getting a tiller and using it as either tiller mode or fixed gear/throttle mode from the helm seem feasible?

3) I want to run the kicker off the main gas tanks. I was thinking I'd install a water-separating fuel filter on the starboard side of the motor-well - the type with two outputs. Then, I'd put shut-off valves on each output, and one would go to the main, the other to the kicker. Anything else I should consider about the fuel connections?

4) The boat has trim tabs. I think I'll probably need to install a mini-jacker or similar to gain aft clearance behind the trim tabs for the kicker. Any other ways to accomplish this easily?

5) Unfortunately the swim platform is installed on starboard side. So my choice is either to just install the kicker on port, and deal with the tiller possibly being difficult to turn the boat towards starboard. Or, I could take the time to relocate the swim platform to port, and install the kicker starboard. This might make for a cleaner entry into the cockpit from the swim platform (less cables/hoses to step over), although the steering linkage does take up some space in the port side of the motor well. Do you think it is worth the effort to relocate the swim platform to port? Since I'll probably need to install a jack plate of some sort, this will involve a lot of drilling, filling, redrilling, etc.

Thanks for you input folks. I'm happy that I will get to become a full-fledged member of this great community soon. It has certainly helped me a lot over the years in preparing to actually buy a C-Dory.

Mathias
 
1 yes,
2. yes
3. yes, but I might want a separate tank, since many of outboard failures are due to contaminated fuel.
4. no Leave the platform where it is.

Good plan.
 
Congrats on your Venture! That should be a fantastic boat :thup Whoo hoo! :beer

Just a side detail, but what I did to hook up the fuel line for my kicker was to have the fitting coming out of the Racor filter be a "tank side" fitting for the quick release fuel hose that comes with the engine. What this allows is a quick release ability to take the fuel line from the Racor (and thus the main tanks) to a typical outboard type tank (which also has the mating fitting on it of course). Plus, they tend to work without any leakage.

I can't take credit for the idea as I got that from Les at EQ, but it works nicely. I don't know how any other brand's fittings worked, but I did it with a Honda fitting (as I started with a Honda kicker). I was able to get a "tank side" fitting with threads that I could fit to a Racor.

Not sure if this will suit your setup but I thought I would mention it.
 
Bob - thanks for the confirmation. I'd done my research, but always nice to get some feedback from more experienced folks before plunking down money on it. For the separate fuel tank issue, I was thinking that since the venture already has dual 50gal tanks with a fuel selector switch, I'd be pretty well protected. I guess one could always fill both tanks up with bad gas somewhere. That'd be a problem with the separate tank for the kicker too though I suppose, unless I was diligent about always filling up the kicker tank somewhere other than where I've filled the mains. I know myself well enough to know I won't do that...

Sunbeam - thanks! We're super-excited. That's a good idea on the quick-release fitting. I guess that would have to come AFTER a shutoff valve, to prevent air from getting sucked backwards through it if you were to run the main with no kicker connected? I guess it's a sort of push-valve in the fitting, but not sure if it prevents backwards flow when no hose is attached?

The other idea I've been toying around with is how to hook my Honda eu2000i into the main tanks as well. I'd like to build a little star-board platform for the genset to sit in the motor well opposite of the kicker. How cool would it be to have the kicker, main, and generator all sitting back there in the motor-well running off the main tanks, exausts all pointed aft.
 
mathias999us":12jinh4c said:
That's a good idea on the quick-release fitting. I guess that would have to come AFTER a shutoff valve, to prevent air from getting sucked backwards through it if you were to run the main with no kicker connected?
Click to expand...

I'm sitting here trying to think if I've run mine off the portable tank ever. I don't think a shutoff valve would be necessary, since if you think about it, you can detach an outboard from the portable tank and continue to run it (like if you are running it out of fuel). Also no fuel leaks out - I think they have some sort of self-sealing ball type dealie in the fitting. Also the tanks are vented anyway, so not airtight on that side of the squeeze bulb anyway.... I don't think?

I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think you need any shutoff for that reason, although now you have put the doubt in me as I don't want to pronounce something and have it be wrong!

BTW, I have the swim platform on port side, and you are right in that it makes for a nice walk-over spot. I use it constantly in places where you get ashore on a beach or etc. (Powell) and also for stern anchoring and for getting aboard the dinghy. So from that angle it is great having it on Port side (no fuel lines, cables, what-have-you in the way).

On the other hand, with a heavy kicker (I started with a 100+# kicker) and the batteries to starboard, and especially when running solo (adding me to starboard), I was rather starboard heavy. That was sort of a pain. You can use trim tabs underway, but I hate to use something like that to correct a "permanent" list (also the boat was listing at anchor when I was trying to sleep - trim tabs do nothing then). I went with a lighter kicker and that fixed it, but still.

You might not have that problem on a 26, with the much more reserve buoyancy astern, but I'm not sure. But at least that might be a point in favor of keeping the starboard-side platform. On the other hand, if you do want to move it, you could "console" yourself that your new holes in the transom would be done properly (which I haven't seen in any builder transom holes), i.e. overdrilled/filled/re-drilled for no exposed core.

Anyway, fun times planning for the new boat!
 
Mathias.......

I had the same problem several years ago when looking for a kicker. After researching what was available, talking with my 1st mate etc. I wanted to go with a hand tiller set-up and no power tilt. My 1st mate said that this was probably going to be my last boat so spend what i want and get what i want. I settled on the completely remote control 9.9 HT Honda. I am not sorry one bit for going that way. The totally remote set-up was maybe and extra $700 but totally worth the convenience.
I do like the fuel line set up suggested and will probably change mine to that.
Good luck with your choice.

Jack
 
You might want to consider getting a Trollmaster throttle control for the kicker. They're easy to install and for those times when you have the connecting rod installed it's nice to be able to control everything from the helm.
 
Welcome and congrats. When installing a motor with redundancy as a goal, do not tie into your main tanks for fuel. Ok to do it if a trolling motor is your goal. Carry redundant fuel you bought at some other source. Bad fuel is what shuts most engines down. If you get bad fuel and loose your main, then switch to kicker for "safety" in 4 minutes your kicker goes down so much for the goal.
See it here in BC regularly.
Redundant means seperate IMHO
I run a pampered single for safety and am only buying fuel in places that sell lots simply because I don't feel the need to create 2 seperate propulsion systems on a small boat. Many don't feel as I do, but there you go. Enjoy your new boat!
George
 
Wow - lots of great feedback and ideas here.

I guess I'll have to get the boat first (on Thursday) before I can really decide about port vs starboard with the kicker, and the added work (and holes drilled into transom) involved. I do intend to use the boat for a fair amount of swimming (have kids that will be with us).

Yes, the df9.9 comes in either fuel injected or carburated. For a moment there I did a double-take - the Suzuki website lists the DF9.9A as carburated, the DF9.9B as "batteryless EFI", and the DF9.9TH (the high thrust model) as only available as carburated. But, I see DF9.9BTH models for sale on the web that are the high thrust with EFI.

But, the high thrust model is only available as a tiller. The non-high-thrust is available as remote. I don't really get what the "high-thrust" really gives. I see a 4 blade prop vs a 3 blade prop, and a lower gear ratio. Couldn't one get the non-high-thrust model, and just prop it with a lower pitched prop to achieve the same?

It's a good point on the redundant gas. That comment, along with the suggestion to install a quick-connection fitting has got me thinking.... it would be cool to install the quick fitting on the second output port of the fuel filter, then also carry a small (6gal perhaps) spare fuel tank when venturing out into lonely waters, with the same quick-fitting. Then I could swap to the spare tank if necessary by simply swapping the fuel line on the kicker. THEN I could also set up a gas cap on the honda generator with the same quick fitting. And I could also run the honda off either the main tanks or the spare tanks (or the internal tank too of course). That would be a really versatile setup.

The troll-master would be great too. The boat I'm getting also has auto-pilot with a remote, so in theory I could be able to steer from the cockpit without a tiller handle, using the steering connector off the main.

I guess I've got the gas connections pretty much figured out thanks to the good suggestions here. Now I just need to figure out if high-thrust with a tiller or non-high-thrust with remote and propped appropriately for the size of the boat is the best option. One appealing thing about the remote is that it would alleviate my concern over mounting the kicker on port and having the tiller hit the side of the motor well when turning starboard.

Thanks again for the input and kind regards,
Mathias
 
From what I know, "high thrust" is like having a low gear on a heavy truck. It will have a bigger prop, etc. For example, a friend of mine built a 25,000# 30' steel sailboat, and in the years before he installed a planned-for inboard, he ran it with a 9.9 high thrust outboard in a well. In fact, he ran it all the way down the Mississippi (from up near the source), plus over to the Bahamas and back to Florida. Lots of grunt for that boat. The prop looked like a dinner plate!

So, do you need/want high thrust for a relatively light Venture 26? I'm not sure, although I would lean toward "maybe not, but I'll do some research." It would likely give you more control in reverse, but then you are not planning to dock with this engine regularly.

My original kicker was a 100+# Honda 8. Lovely engine, feature packed, but heavy and since my kicker is only for "get to the side of the road" use, it was overkill for my purpose. I traded it to another C-Doryer who trolls and fishes and really uses it, and now I have a lightweight 5hp Merc that is just a very basic engine. Has an integral tank so I can easily carry a separate amount of fuel (in case of bad fuel), plus a hookup for an external tank, which I can hook to my main tanks (via the Racor fitting) or to a separate portable gas tank. Win/win since we both ended up with great engines for our purposes. I like that I can easily toss the Merc around (take it off for storage, leave it behind on certain trips where I am comfortable with a single, etc.)

Reason I brought it up though is that the one thing I really would have wanted on the Honda was power tilt (it came with the boat so I had no choice). Leaning way out over the splashwell (at least in a 22) to tilt that engine up and down was a bear and possibly dangerous in certain situations. I could have fitted some sort of lever arm, but since it really wasn't the best "fit" for my use anyway, I went to the more minimal kicker.

Anyway, if I were going to get a 9.9, I'd probably go for power tilt. Might not apply if you are really tall or the transom is easier to reach on the 26.

I did like the tiller on the Honda (and now the Merc), but I grew up with tiller engines, so sitting back there steering by tiller just feels like a great option to me. At speed I found that I could run it more like a sailboat, and just leave the kicker locked in straight position and steer with the foot of the main (by using the wheel). I could see where others would prefer full controls though.
 
The high thrusts allow swinging a slightly larger prop. This will be more efficient at the low speeds, with a heavy boat. Power Tilt is handy--but if pulling the kicker up is an issue (Never has been for me), there are lever's which will attach on the back of the cowl, and you can pull the motor up with that, easier than reaching over.

71036.jpg

The Honda generator from the boat's fuel tank--that gets a bit more difficult. The honda fuel pump is small, and fairly weak. It will not pull (actually siphon) fuel more than 12" below the bottom of the generator. So that would limit where you put it. On the other hand, you could rig the generator with the same fuel fitting as the Suzuki hi thrust (as suggested)--and use that auxiliary tank, which could be placed on a level with the generator. The Honda generator will pull fuel from some distance, as long as the aux tank is not too much lower than the carb in the generator.
 
Thanks guys.

Yes, from what I can tell, the high-thrust outboards are more efficient and designed specifically for applications where they will be operated at slower displacement speeds. So I think the high thrust model is the way to go, which also locks me into the tiller route if I want to have matching engine brands (which I do). Fortunately the Suzuki 9.9 high thrusts have power tilt, so I should be good there. That lever tool for tilting up looks neat though.

I'm actually not extremely concerned about having the honda generator run directly off the main tanks, although admit that would be nice if possible. But it would open the possibility of accidentally burning more gas than you had intended to by forgetting to turn the generator off. What would also be nice is if I could at least refill the internal tank on the generator somehow from the main tanks. I think this might be easily possible with a squeeze ball in the line to the kicker, if the gas line comes off of the kicker with a quick-fitting. I can just disconnect from the kicker and aim it into the generator's tank opening, and squeeze the ball until it's full. It's only a gallon... Maybe that's a lot of squeezing though. In a lot of the situations I will use this boat in, I probably won't be bringing the separate portable backup tank (local sandbar islands on the St Croix river, a couple lazy miles up-river from the launch, heavily used by others), but would like to get more than one gallon through the generator over a weekend-long trip.

I think I've got a pretty solid game plan for this project now, thanks to your feedback. I'll circle back here and post some pics of the completed install once I've finished the project.

Thanks again,
Mathias
 
I have not made clear, but the terminal ends of the external outboard tanks, have a seal, and should not leak. You would have to remove the hose from the fitting, or have some plunger device to open the seal.

You can put a fuel pump (Walbro marine, so it is ignition protected), to pump fuel out of the on board tanks. BUT. I always pour car into the generator tank off the boat--or at least overboard. Just too many risks for me. I used a Walbro pump to empty my fuel tanks, and to "polish" the fuel.
 
When you finally get this setup installed I may have to drive over to Minnesota and see it! I researched this same subject three years ago but it was too complicated for this old "fart". Doug
 
Bob - that's a good point, I know what you mean about the hose-ends only opening when they are connected. Maybe I could just carry an extra hose with the inline ball, and no fitting on the "out" end specifically for filling the generator. Then I could just pop it onto the quick-fitting on out port #2 on the fuel filter.

dmengland - sure, I'd be happy to show it to you, provided it turns out well :)
 
The kicker is installed:
20150520_191817.jpg

Well, we got the boat, and the first morning after we got it home, I ordered the Suzuki DF9.9BTHX, fuel injected, high thrust, power tilt, electric start, tiller. I ordered it from onlineoutboards and it arrived at my doorstep in exactly 2 days from when I placed the order - outstanding. The new motor was in great condition, and my son and I lifted it up into a trial position, and I found a location where I could mount it on the transom without a bracket. With the highest tilt stop setting, the motor is just about exactly vertical when all the way down, and it clears aft of the trim tab by about an inch. When the trim tab is all the way up, it is about 1mm under the anti ventilation plate on the kicker. I also installed a the removable steering link bar. No bends were necessary, and there were very good mount points available for the ball fittings on each motor. I also through-bolted the kicker, and sealed the core in the holes I drilled with epoxy.

The electric is wired into the system right where the main motor's connections are. For fuel, this boat already had a sierra water separating fuel filter inside the starboard lazarette. I bought some new fuel line, a new squeze bulb, a new quick-fitting for the motor connection, and the brass fittings and shutoff valve. I installed this into the unused "out" port on the fuel filter, and ran it through the same passages as the fuel lines for the main, along the motor well, and over to the kicker. Now, I have a quick disconnect right at the motor, and I have the original fuel line and 3gal gas tank that came with the motor. I can easily swap the kicker to use the portable tank or the main tanks in the boat.

We had it out on the river yesterday and I started the break-in procedure, and I'm about 3 hours into it, out of 10. So, I haven't had it up to full throttle yet, but ran it for a couple hours at 3/4 throttle, and it easily pushes this boat 6-7kt. Full throttle should give a little more, which is really max displacement speed for this size of a boat. It's really the perfect match for the boat, and it the kicker looks quite nice sitting next to its matching bigger brother DF175. I'm quite happy with how this project turned out.

So, with this setup I can run the kicker from the cockpit using the tiller, but I can also steer from the helm, or use my autopilot to steer the kicker. And it's so nice that this motor has electric AND pull start. It has "batteryless" EFI, and a small alternator. So, if I ran the batteries dead accidentally, I can still fire up the kicker, which will start charging the batteries, and eventually be able to start the main. So nice.

Thanks for all your input guys. I posted a bunch of pics of the install in my album in the "Kicker Installation" sub album.



Mathias
 
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