Is shutting down the economy worth it?

[hardee]

Today the Presidents Valet was tested positive for COVID-19. Lets see how long it takes for Trump to test positive, (2-3 weeks). Now they are doing daily testing in the WH where it was weekly before this. Just maybe, he will realize how real this "invisible enemy" really is. Trump said the staff are wearing masks, the news guy who has been in the WH regularly for the last months, said no-one or rarely, is anyone, ever masked.

Which is more important?

Comfort and Economy

OR

Health and Life

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[Foggy]

Here's "Dimmer switch" reopening. MI now in Phase 3.
Seems reasonable and I'm comfy hunkered going' out somewhat.
How are you doing?

Whitmer has worked with leaders in health care, business, labor, and education to develop the six-phase MI Safe Start Plan and said Michigan is currently in phase three.

The phases of the pandemic include:

1. UNCONTROLLED GROWTH: The increasing number of new cases every day, overwhelming our health systems.
2. PERSISTENT SPREAD: We continue to see high case levels with concern about health system capacity.
3. FLATTENING: The epidemic is no longer increasing and the health-system's capacity is sufficient for current needs.
4. IMPROVING: Cases, hospitalizations and deaths are clearly declining.
5. CONTAINING: Continued case and death rate improvements, with outbreaks quickly contained.
6. POST-PANDEMIC: Community spread not expected to return.

“I am working closely with health care experts and epidemiologists to closely monitor Michigan’s progress in the fight against COVID-19,” said Governor Whitmer. “As we move forward with the MI Safe Start Plan, I am working closely with partners in business, labor, and education to determine the best way to move forward each day. All of us know the importance of getting people back to work and the economy moving again. We’ve already reopened lower-risk sectors like construction, manufacturing, and lawn care. The worst thing we can do is open up in a way that causes a second wave of infections and death, puts health care workers at further risk, and wipes out all the progress we've made. That's why we will continue to monitor the spread of this virus, hospital capacity, testing rates, and more as we work toward reaching the ‘improving’ phase.”
https://upnorthlive.com/news/coronaviru ... r-michigan

Aye.

 

[Gene&Mary]

Re the utube video from that talking head from Fox Entertainment. Check out which Fox hosts are a part of Fox Entertainment and which are a part of Fox News.

History has a way of shaping the future in unexpected ways.

Ronald Reagan's administration was notable for three policy decisions. The 3rd one is most relevant to this thread-

1. The Trickle Down Economy policy which accelerated the divide between the .1% and the rest of us. The ideas behind this policy led to the 2008 Bailout, the current Income Tax Reform and the current Stimulus Bills, all of which benefit the the rich much more than small business, the middle class or the poor.
2. The breaking of the Air Traffic Controllers Strike which led to the decline and sometimes disappearance of unions in general.
3. The rescinding of the Fairness Doctrine. Wikipedia says-
The fairness doctrine of the United States Federal Communications Commission (FCC), introduced in 1949, was a policy that required the holders of broadcast licenses to both present controversial issues of public importance and to do so in a manner that was—in the FCC's view—honest, equitable, and balanced.
This was rescinded in 1985.

Since then we have seen the rise of Rupert Murdoch, Breitbart, QAnon and to be fair their equals on the left. The point is that depending on where we live, our friends, our interest in the internet, we have become more and more polarized in our beliefs until we see Trump saying he can shoot someone of 5th Avenue and still remain popular with his base.

The utube clip is just the same story about anti-sciencers vs sciencers. It would be nice to have Fox Entertainment allow equal time for a rebuttal to his one-sided statements. We would then be able to decide for ourselves using information from both sides of the argument.

For those of you that watch PBS, how may times have you heard Judy Woodruff say they have contacted the opposing side for comments? Have you ever heard of Fox Entertainment doing that?

 

[Hunkydory]

Re the utube video from that talking head from Fox Entertainment. Check out which Fox hosts are a part of Fox Entertainment and which are a part of Fox News.

History has a way of shaping the future in unexpected ways.

Ronald Reagan's administration was notable for three policy decisions. The 3rd one is most relevant to this thread-

1. The Trickle Down Economy policy which accelerated the divide between the .1% and the rest of us. The ideas behind this policy led to the 2008 Bailout, the current Income Tax Reform and the current Stimulus Bills, all of which benefit the the rich much more than small business, the middle class or the poor.
2. The breaking of the Air Traffic Controllers Strike which led to the decline and sometimes disappearance of unions in general.
3. The rescinding of the Fairness Doctrine. Wikipedia says-
The fairness doctrine of the United States Federal Communications Commission (FCC), introduced in 1949, was a policy that required the holders of broadcast licenses to both present controversial issues of public importance and to do so in a manner that was—in the FCC's view—honest, equitable, and balanced.
This was rescinded in 1985.

Since then we have seen the rise of Rupert Murdoch, Breitbart, QAnon and to be fair their equals on the left. The point is that depending on where we live, our friends, our interest in the internet, we have become more and more polarized in our beliefs until we see Trump saying he can shoot someone of 5th Avenue and still remain popular with his base.

The utube clip is just the same story about anti-sciencers vs sciencers. It would be nice to have Fox Entertainment allow equal time for a rebuttal to his one-sided statements. We would then be able to decide for ourselves using information from both sides of the argument.

For those of you that watch PBS, how may times have you heard Judy Woodruff say they have contacted the opposing side for comments? Have you ever heard of Fox Entertainment doing that?

Any far left liberal of course is going to reject most view points from a conservative commentary & also the same would think the overall media needs more balance to the liberal side. I expected no less. As Tucker Carlson is a known conservative commentator, I thought just like you were projecting, a little balance for the viewers in the middle was in order. As a non religious libertarian, I personally, usually have a more conservative view point on limited government. I’ve voted in every presidential election since I was legal age to do so, but have never contributed even a penny to any candidate in all these years. That changed this year. I prefer the bombastic rhetoric & more conservative policies of the present President to the alternative choice, just like I did in 2016. It’s amazing to me, how the media & oppositional characterization of him points to a bumbling buffoon, but can’t seem to get a grip on how he has continually outmaneuvered them from being elected to policies, other then thinking if it just weren’t for all those deploreables. Many of you are simply so locked into your version of politically correct thinking if the same was being done concerning this virus & Obama, Hillary or Biden was the President, we would be reading, fine job in a difficult situation.

 

[smckean (Tosca)]

.....how he has continually outmaneuvered them from being elected to policies....

I bet we can all agree it is easier to tear down a building than to build it. That principle applies in many realms. It strikes me that Trump's "policies" are mostly about reversing "structures" other administrations have painfully built over the years (both R and D admins): undermine NATO; pull out of WHO; pull out of Climate Accords; tarnish the USA image all over the world; cozy up to dictators and embarrass our allies; eliminate regulations; disembowel the ACA and replace it with nothing; bash the media; ridicule the opposition party as un-American; sully the reputations of the FBI, the DOJ, the Intelligence community, Congress, and many others.

I could go on and on, but the common theme is to tear down, not to build up. Now, before you say "tax cuts", I want to point out that the 1.3 trillion dollar tax cut was not matched by any cut in spending; that 1.3 trillion went directly to the country's debt. The tax cut was much like a family claiming they increased their income by taking a cash advance on their credit card. (And here I thought conservatives decried the national debt.....silly me!)

 

[Spike]

.....how he has continually outmaneuvered them from being elected to policies....

I bet we can all agree it is easier to tear down a building than to build it. That principle applies in many realms. It strikes me that Trump's "policies" are mostly about reversing "structures" other administrations have painfully built over the years (both R and D admins): undermine NATO; pull out of WHO; pull out of Climate Accords; tarnish the USA image all over the world; cozy up to dictators and embarrass our allies; eliminate regulations; disembowel the ACA and replace it with nothing; bash the media; ridicule the opposition party as un-American; sully the reputations of the FBI, the DOJ, the Intelligence community, Congress, and many others.

I could go on and on, but the common theme is to tear down, not to build up. Now, before you say "tax cuts", I want to point out that the 1.3 trillion dollar tax cut was not matched by any cut in spending; that 1.3 trillion went directly to the country's debt. The tax cut was much like a family claiming they increased their income by taking a cash advance on their credit card. (And here I thought conservatives decried the national debt.....silly me!)

Well said.

 

[NORO LIM]

. . . I prefer the bombastic rhetoric & more conservative policies of the present President to the alternative choice, just like I did in 2016. . . .

OK. I've pretty much tried to let stuff ride on many of the comments made here and in other threads on similar topics. It takes a lot to get me to come out of my shell. This is a lot.

Two things:

First, regarding "bombastic" - To quote Inigo Montoya, "I do not think it means what you think it means." Check any dictionary, e.g. this one https://www.thefreedictionary.com/bombast
"bom·bast (bŏm′băst′)
n.
1. Grandiloquent, pompous speech or writing.
2. Grandiose or overpowering expression, as in music or painting."
Synonyms include: "pomposity, ranting, bragging, hot air (informal), bluster, grandiosity, braggadocio, grandiloquence, rodomontade (literary), gasconade (rare), extravagant boasting, magniloquence There were men aboard who could not tolerate his bombast."

While I grant you that may be an accurate description of Mr. Trump's "style," do you really mean to say that's what you want in a President?

Second. Trump is not a conservative.

 

[Gene&Mary]

My post was only to present a potential reason for the polarization, divisiveness, and just plain hate that Democrats and Republicans seem to have for each other.

If we could just ignore politicians, the media and the extreme 15% on ether side of the spectrum, I'll bet the remaining 70% of Americans pretty much agree on most things.....not all but most of the really important things. The remaining disagreements would be fodder for lively, hopefully informed debates.

I just watched a PBS documentary on Joseph Pulitzer and his newspaper wars with William Randolph Hurst at the turn of last century. The focus of their brawls were all about circulation numbers and neither was above stretching the truth to sell newspapers. "Remember the Maine".

What goes around comes around. Today the media is all about clicks and most politicians are all about power and getting re-elected. Neither is above spinning the truth for their own purposes.

 

[RobLL]

Back in my late teen years I was an Eisenhower Republican (still get teased about it), but I still like Ike. So were he to see the current occupant of that house what would he be saying? I understand he could occasionally be a little profane.

 

[dotnmarty]

Back in my late teen years I was an Eisenhower Republican (still get teased about it), but I still like Ike. So were he to see the current occupant of that house what would he be saying? I understand he could occasionally be a little profane.

In the 50's, as a high school senior I voted for Ike in Miss Hardens class called Problems in American Democracy. On this, the 75th Anniversary of V-E day I have no doubt whatsover that Ike, and for that matter George Marshall too are spinning in their graves.

 

[smckean (Tosca)]

So were he to see the current occupant of that house what would he (Ike) be saying? I understand he could occasionally be a little profane.

I just finished watching a documentary on PBS about Eugene McCarthy and McCarthyism in general. Once McCarthy inevitably went way too far, and lost what little support he still enjoyed in the Republican party, Ike pounced on McCarthy with both feet. Ike couldn't stand him and felt McCarthy had eroded the character of the Republican party. According to the documentary Ike used some very strong language indeed against McCarthy and froze him out of all White House events.

P.S. I truly didn't expect to have this reaction when I started to watch the documentary (90 minutes, I think); but the similarities in the rhetoric and demonetization of the "other" between now and in the McCarthy period was striking. (Also interesting how Roy Cohn looms mightily over both periods.)

 

[westward]

Sandy: I wonder what Roy Cohn would have to say about our economy? ( I haven't thought about him for a while, but didn't he work as Trump's personal attorney prior to his death?)

Standard protocol at UW hospital now includes full-time masks for everyone, all day, with brief exceptions for physically-distanced breaks. Physical distancing enforced when/where possible. This is in addition to our normal infection control program. Masks are not N-95 unless indicated by droplet/airborne infection of the patient.

Seattle at large is beginning to wake up I've noticed. More and more businesses are open, and lots of folks are out on the street in my neighborhood, walking, biking, and enjoying the beautiful weather. I'm encouraged that most folks out in the community are masking in indoor public places, and maintaining a 6ft. buffer everywhere. I'm sad that a few seem resistant to even the most basic safety protocols (eg: one-way store aisles, or maintaining social distance). Hopefully the non-compliant won't ruin things for everyone. I'm confident we can get back to a modified version of normalcy without excess suffering; my fingers are crossed!

Please spread the word to your friends about the benefits of hand-washing, physical distancing, masking (esp. indoor public places), and helping out those who need to stay isolated.

 

[ssobol]

... Please spread the word to your friends about the benefits of hand-washing, physical distancing, masking (esp. indoor public places), ...

Many view the mask as a walking symbol of vulnerability that tells others you're scared about contracting the virus. So to compensate for that fear, and as a show of strength, they may reject the masks entirely.

Adhering to these rules may feel like, to some, a forfeiture of their freedoms. People naturally rebel when they're told what to do.

Doesn't mean they aren't idiots though.

 

[westward]

Ssobol,

I find myself in an odd position: very freedom loving and averse to overreaching government control, but possessed of enough infection control education and practice to understand the high marginal value of a few “ best practices “. I badly want commerce to resume for personal and community reasons. I wonder about folks driving alone in their car with a mask on, gripped by irrational fear. And I certainly don’t think people with mask phobia are idiots. However, when operating indoors in public places (like Home Depot Or the grocery store ) I do feel their refusal to play by simple, basic health safety rules is quite short- sighted, and will ultimately impede recovery.

I’m troubled by the hyper- polarization of belief in this pandemic, even among the so-called experts. One side won’t accept anything short of a wholesale prolonged shutdown, with states being ruled by executive decree for an indefinite period of time. The other side seems to think ANY government intervention, however reasonable and necessary, is tyranny. Each side is convinced that the other side is ill- motivated. Not the best environment for solving problems such as our country’s recovery from this pandemic?

I do appreciate your perspective on the symbolism of wearing or not wearing masks. I myself don’t when I’m out walking, distant from others, because I know I’m not increasing anyone’s infection risk one iota, and I don’t need Covid solidarity. But, I wash my hands often, practice physical distancing, shop for my elderly parents, and wear a face covering indoors in public places to protect others from me.

All the best, stay safe!

 

[Hunkydory]

My post was only to present a potential reason for the polarization, divisiveness, and just plain hate that Democrats and Republicans seem to have for each other.

If we could just ignore politicians, the media and the extreme 15% on ether side of the spectrum, I'll bet the remaining 70% of Americans pretty much agree on most things.....not all but most of the really important things. The remaining disagreements would be fodder for lively, hopefully informed debates.

I just watched a PBS documentary on Joseph Pulitzer and his newspaper wars with William Randolph Hurst at the turn of last century. The focus of their brawls were all about circulation numbers and neither was above stretching the truth to sell newspapers. "Remember the Maine".

What goes around comes around. Today the media is all about clicks and most politicians are all about power and getting re-elected. Neither is above spinning the truth for their own purposes.

On this we are in agreement. I try not to be strident in sharing my views & opinions. I have about equal friends & relatives that are conservative & liberal & have few difficulties holding good relationships with either. In the meeting of other C-Brats through time at the different Gatherings, I doubt any knew my personal beliefs on politics or religion, that hadn’t shared considerable time with me, but most would know right away that I have an independent streak.

Jay

 

[Hunkydory]

. . . I prefer the bombastic rhetoric & more conservative policies of the present President to the alternative choice, just like I did in 2016. . . .

OK. I've pretty much tried to let stuff ride on many of the comments made here and in other threads on similar topics. It takes a lot to get me to come out of my shell. This is a lot.

Two things:

First, regarding "bombastic" - To quote Inigo Montoya, "I do not think it means what you think it means." Check any dictionary, e.g. this one https://www.thefreedictionary.com/bombast
"bom·bast (bŏm′băst′)
n.
1. Grandiloquent, pompous speech or writing.
2. Grandiose or overpowering expression, as in music or painting."
Synonyms include: "pomposity, ranting, bragging, hot air (informal), bluster, grandiosity, braggadocio, grandiloquence, rodomontade (literary), gasconade (rare), extravagant boasting, magniloquence There were men aboard who could not tolerate his bombast."

While I grant you that may be an accurate description of Mr. Trump's "style," do you really mean to say that's what you want in a President?

Second. Trump is not a conservative.

On your number 1. Didn’t say I liked it, just prefer it over the other final choices & that says more about the other choices to me than anything about this President.

On number 2. He may not be conservative, but his nominations for the Supreme Court & most of his policies are, again at least much more so than the alternatives for which to vote.

 

[Hunkydory]

Back in my late teen years I was an Eisenhower Republican (still get teased about it), but I still like Ike. So were he to see the current occupant of that house what would he be saying? I understand he could occasionally be a little profane.

In the 50's, as a high school senior I voted for Ike in Miss Hardens class called Problems in American Democracy. On this, the 75th Anniversary of V-E day I have no doubt whatsover that Ike, and for that matter George Marshall too are spinning in their graves.

I expect John F Kennedy is spinning right along with them over the road gone down since his time with the Democratic Party.

 

[Hunkydory]

.....how he has continually outmaneuvered them from being elected to policies....

I bet we can all agree it is easier to tear down a building than to build it. That principle applies in many realms. It strikes me that Trump's "policies" are mostly about reversing "structures" other administrations have painfully built over the years (both R and D admins): undermine NATO; pull out of WHO; pull out of Climate Accords; tarnish the USA image all over the world; cozy up to dictators and embarrass our allies; eliminate regulations; disembowel the ACA and replace it with nothing; bash the media; ridicule the opposition party as un-American; sully the reputations of the FBI, the DOJ, the Intelligence community, Congress, and many others.

I could go on and on, but the common theme is to tear down, not to build up. Now, before you say "tax cuts", I want to point out that the 1.3 trillion dollar tax cut was not matched by any cut in spending; that 1.3 trillion went directly to the country's debt. The tax cut was much like a family claiming they increased their income by taking a cash advance on their credit card. (And here I thought conservatives decried the national debt.....silly me!)

I doubt there is much of anything you & I will ever agree on involving politics, though I think we might share some good times if political conversations were left out.

Jay

 

[hardee]

Today the Presidents Valet was tested positive for COVID-19. Lets see how long it takes for Trump to test positive, (2-3 weeks). Now they are doing daily testing in the WH where it was weekly before this. Just maybe, he will realize how real this "invisible enemy" really is. Trump said the staff are wearing masks, the news guy who has been in the WH regularly for the last months, said no-one or rarely, is anyone, ever masked.

Which is more important?

Comfort and Economy

OR

Health and Life

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

This probably should have gone in the "Hunkering Down" thread. My apologies, however, they are related via Covid.

Today, one day after Pres Trump was tested positive, an aid for the Vice President is tested positive. WOW, what a surprise.

I agree that there are places and times for "unmasking", (driving my myself in the car, walking by myself in keeping spacious social distance,) and I am very concerned that having thing opening up, allows travel to more than the local grocery store, and the opening of the economy encourages folks to get out and be about. On the way home from my volunteer job at the food bank I saw a caravan of 4 big motorhomes, all with toads, and all licensed multiple states away parked at the edge of town and having some kind of committee meeting along side the road. NO social distancing and no masks. I'm sure they are bringing $$$ to our community, but have to wonder what else they are bringing with.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[Catman]

Tosca/Sandy, I saw that PBS documentary some months ago, and that vile creature to whom you referred was Joseph, not Eugene. I remember Eugene McCarthy in the '68 election cycle, and even as a kid I could see he was a man of decency and integrity. I think 1968 was a pivotal election that bore unfortunate results. But hey, Tricky Dick began the EPA.