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Integrated Electronics System
- Thread starter El and Bill
- Start date
I have a separate compass and depth finder. I also have an integrated chart plotter and radar. I probably would never have purchased the radar w/o the overlaying feature. I do NOT have the skills to read radar! I will turn the radar only choice on to practice a bit, but I don't use it enough to be comfortable with it.
I suppose it depends on where and when you boat. In the San Juans with occasional trips to Canada in the summer vs being a regular long voyager. Familiar waters vs exploring, etc. I don't need charts in the waters off Everett (watch out for those sand bars!), near Petersburg AK, or in the San Juans. I know these areas very well. Princess Louisa was a different matter! Familiarizing yourself with the weather report, bays & coves to hide if the weather turns, tides & currents, alternate routes, etc, BEFORE the trip is a good idea!
If you risk traveling in the fog, dark, or stormy weather on a regular basis, you may need redundancy. For short fair weather trips, compass and depth finder should be good!
I like the integrated unit for what I do. I do think it is easy to get addicted to it though. Some even have wind and tide info! Don't forget how to use your other tools.
I suppose it depends on where and when you boat. In the San Juans with occasional trips to Canada in the summer vs being a regular long voyager. Familiar waters vs exploring, etc. I don't need charts in the waters off Everett (watch out for those sand bars!), near Petersburg AK, or in the San Juans. I know these areas very well. Princess Louisa was a different matter! Familiarizing yourself with the weather report, bays & coves to hide if the weather turns, tides & currents, alternate routes, etc, BEFORE the trip is a good idea!
If you risk traveling in the fog, dark, or stormy weather on a regular basis, you may need redundancy. For short fair weather trips, compass and depth finder should be good!
I like the integrated unit for what I do. I do think it is easy to get addicted to it though. Some even have wind and tide info! Don't forget how to use your other tools.
This thread is great! It's like sitting in a bar and listening to friends arguing the merits of their Ford, Chevy and Dodge Ram pickups.
We've had the Garmin 2006 and really like it. It is easy to use and reliable after we got the last software upgrade. The Blue Charts are great. Others may match them but I'm not sure that any others can beat them.
That being said, Bess-C is at EQ right now getting the C-80 system installed. I was going to add a Furuno stand alone radar to the Garmin 2006. However, I've become convinced of the advantages of the integrated system, especially if you have the fluxgate compass that allows the MARPA feature. I also have a handheld gps that will be on at the same time as the C80. I really like maps and charts so I always have them on hand for planning and on the boat for backup. Our compass is mounted in front of the middle window and that seems to work fine for me.
We also have a separate fuel tank for the kicker motor,a kicker that can be easily started by hand and a hand held vhf. It sometimes seems a little obsessive to have so much redundancy, but we like to go places alone that are off the beaten path.
I admire those of you who can dead reckon in fog and rolling seas, but I'm not one of you. I don't plan on going out if I know I'll need radar, but I want it in case I'm caught out in bad visibility. The ability of the MARPA enabled C80 to give speed and direction of the moving targets around me all on my chartplotter sounds too good to pass up.
Lyle
We've had the Garmin 2006 and really like it. It is easy to use and reliable after we got the last software upgrade. The Blue Charts are great. Others may match them but I'm not sure that any others can beat them.
That being said, Bess-C is at EQ right now getting the C-80 system installed. I was going to add a Furuno stand alone radar to the Garmin 2006. However, I've become convinced of the advantages of the integrated system, especially if you have the fluxgate compass that allows the MARPA feature. I also have a handheld gps that will be on at the same time as the C80. I really like maps and charts so I always have them on hand for planning and on the boat for backup. Our compass is mounted in front of the middle window and that seems to work fine for me.
We also have a separate fuel tank for the kicker motor,a kicker that can be easily started by hand and a hand held vhf. It sometimes seems a little obsessive to have so much redundancy, but we like to go places alone that are off the beaten path.
I admire those of you who can dead reckon in fog and rolling seas, but I'm not one of you. I don't plan on going out if I know I'll need radar, but I want it in case I'm caught out in bad visibility. The ability of the MARPA enabled C80 to give speed and direction of the moving targets around me all on my chartplotter sounds too good to pass up.
Lyle
starcrafttom
Active member
Bill, and those that like redundant systems. I the main cause of failed electronics aboard boats is, drum roll please, loss of power. Unless you are going to have 3 batteries on board, I have two; them multiple systems are just as prone to going out as an integrated system. That’s why I believe in maps and compass. Also you only have to get to a safe place to anchor up or dock to make repairs. Its not like you are going to navigate the in side passage at night in the fog after your system goes out. And I doubt that anyone here is going to do that even when our systems are operating correctly. Redundant systems are for large ships that travel day and night or global travelers that can make Seattle to san fran with out a fuel stop. I don’t know anyone here that travels for very long or far after dark. I believe that a good integrated system is easier to use and takes up less space. And that maps and compass along with a hand held gps are more then enough back up. Hell that’s all I have been using for the last 20 years and a lot less for most of that time.
starcrafttom":2okpsgnv said:With that said I have noticed something weird with many people I fish with. On a clear day, in good weather, they cannot tell me where we are. Even thou they were looking out the window the whole time we were in route, they cannot tell me were home is. Even when we can see it.
Tom,
That describes my wife to a "T". She often states that she was born without the "Location" gene. The alarm system on her car is often used to simply find the car in the parking lot as she has no clue where she parked. I hate to tell you how many times she has called me and asked me to help her find her way. I on the other hand am like you. For the most part I always know which way is north and can retrace my path without too much thought. This drives my wife nuts!
2 years ago I went to Sekiu for the first time and my wife came along. Since the only navigational tools I had were the compass and chart I installed on the boat the week before I felt pretty comfortable. We were out fishing when the fog rolled in. Since we were about 3 miles out when it happened I just took note of where we were and we kept fishing. We were really into the fish and my wife wasn't paying too much attention to the fog. All of a sudden she looks up and realizes that she can only see about 20 feet beyond the boat. She asked me if I was worried. I told her no, We can continue fishing for about another 20 minutes and then we need to head to shore as we will have drifted out of area 5 and into area 4. She shook her head and we went back to fishing. About 20 minutes later we picked up our gear and headed south to the shore. We we arrived we were right at the mouth of the Sekiu river right where I thought we should be. For my wife it was a nerve racking 15 minutes to shore though. Since then I have purchased a GPS Puck for my laptop and carry it in the boat in a dry bag just in case.
Another time I was fishing right off the green can on the east side of Clallam Bay for rock fish. The fog rolled in and we continued to fish for a while. I knew where we were but as we were heading in my son asked me to look at something. In the 5 seconds I took my eye off the compass I had turned a 180! Boy did that make my heart beat faster! Using my fishfinder and compass we slowly motored to where I thought the can was. Since my sled has a loud engine we couldn't hear it. When I got to where I thought it should be I shut down the motor and as I kept my eye on the compass Justin went to look for the can. It was actually 40 feet from the boat right where I thought it should be. I was very releaved! I knew if I had gauged wrong I would have been on the rocks before I knew it.
I've always felt that if I knew where I was and what direction I was facing I could get myself where I wanted to go. Those two situations have helped to give me confidence. From here, I think I want to take some navigation classes to better learn to read charts. Sure I'll install a GPS on my boat (I actually haven't bought one yet but plan to do so soon). But to me the compass and a chart are the best tools I have.
This is a fascinating subject! Some people seem as though they never loose track of where they are, and others, at the other extreme, have to be clued in to find the way home if they make one wrong turn during the day.
I've thought about it before, and concluded some of us have, since a very young age, learned to keep track of exactly where we are at all times and never lose track in the continuous process of reconoitering our surroundings. These people learn to not only keep track, but develop maps in their heads of their location and where they've been. It's mostly just that we've trained ourselves that way because of our experiences as children, I believe. We can read the clues of sun position, shadows, time of day, wind and cloud movement (sailing develops these to the nth degree!!!), and even the stars and moon at night, and have a spatial awareness of the relative location of everything.
If you really have this sense, it's really disturbing to momentarily loose track of where you are, or to find out that you're somewhere else than you thought you were, or even that you're turned around a bit. Sure helps to read wind shifts when you're sailboat racing!
Why others don't develop this as well, or in some cases, apparently not at all, I can't say. but maybe it just hasn't been that important to them in how their childhood experiences were structured. No need to keep track = no developed ability.....??? I do think it is, for sure, an adaptation or application of our spatial intelligence as well as other aptitudes. Joe.
I've thought about it before, and concluded some of us have, since a very young age, learned to keep track of exactly where we are at all times and never lose track in the continuous process of reconoitering our surroundings. These people learn to not only keep track, but develop maps in their heads of their location and where they've been. It's mostly just that we've trained ourselves that way because of our experiences as children, I believe. We can read the clues of sun position, shadows, time of day, wind and cloud movement (sailing develops these to the nth degree!!!), and even the stars and moon at night, and have a spatial awareness of the relative location of everything.
If you really have this sense, it's really disturbing to momentarily loose track of where you are, or to find out that you're somewhere else than you thought you were, or even that you're turned around a bit. Sure helps to read wind shifts when you're sailboat racing!
Why others don't develop this as well, or in some cases, apparently not at all, I can't say. but maybe it just hasn't been that important to them in how their childhood experiences were structured. No need to keep track = no developed ability.....??? I do think it is, for sure, an adaptation or application of our spatial intelligence as well as other aptitudes. Joe.
Joe,
You're right it is very fascinating. Some of the previous posts underscore the fact that we all boat in many different places for many different reasons. I also thought that I could keep myself well oriented even in fog. However my experience for many years fishing out of Ucluelet has changed my mind. The fishing areas are anywhere from 5-20 miles offshore in open water with little structure. When the fog rolls in, it requires much more then a general heading to shore to find your way home. There is too much drift and wind over greater distances. Finding a shoreline is easy, but if you miss it a little you could wander around Barkley Sound for days trying to find your way home. Another factor not often considered: when your fishing and trolling around in circles most of us are not paying too much attention to our exact position. If you are cruising from point A to B you will almost always know exactly where you are should fog start to develop. I would really hate to make a 20 mi run back home using only my compass and a chart even if I had a perfect fix to start the run.
You're right it is very fascinating. Some of the previous posts underscore the fact that we all boat in many different places for many different reasons. I also thought that I could keep myself well oriented even in fog. However my experience for many years fishing out of Ucluelet has changed my mind. The fishing areas are anywhere from 5-20 miles offshore in open water with little structure. When the fog rolls in, it requires much more then a general heading to shore to find your way home. There is too much drift and wind over greater distances. Finding a shoreline is easy, but if you miss it a little you could wander around Barkley Sound for days trying to find your way home. Another factor not often considered: when your fishing and trolling around in circles most of us are not paying too much attention to our exact position. If you are cruising from point A to B you will almost always know exactly where you are should fog start to develop. I would really hate to make a 20 mi run back home using only my compass and a chart even if I had a perfect fix to start the run.
starcrafttom
Active member
gljjr I did not know that we married sisters. We left everret in the day light and cruised to poss. point to fish and watch whales. when we got there , a place my wife has been several times with me, she points at shore and ask if this is hat island? WHAT!! I mean I love her and all but how does some one get that lost in 20 mins when they were looking out the window the whole way and have been there before. i just dont get it.
Cavu.. One of the things that i like about the c-80 system is the auto pilot. I too have a habit of turning when Iam looking at the screen or at a distance objects. The auto pilot will keep you from doing that and allow you to be looking around for shore , ship, ice bergs and the like while on a straight course.
Cavu.. One of the things that i like about the c-80 system is the auto pilot. I too have a habit of turning when Iam looking at the screen or at a distance objects. The auto pilot will keep you from doing that and allow you to be looking around for shore , ship, ice bergs and the like while on a straight course.
Love this thread! We all seem to boat in different areas, different weather conditions, different restrictions to visibility, so one gadget just doesn't fit all.
Because I've been an unlimited tonnage ocean master for over 50 years and have trekked back and forth to AK from WA in all kinds of weather, I'm interested in anything concerning navigational safety. If a skipper is going to boat at night, or in the fog or poor visibility-- have paper charts aboard and know how to use them. True, it ain't easy in the dark in a bouncing boat, but sure beats swimming.
I like redundancy, and most of the old time skippers I know feel the same way. Electronic gadgets can fail - and always seem to fail when needed most. Relying solely on electronics just isn't smart unless you boat in CAVU weather. And in that case you probably don't need the electronics.
I absolutely love my C-80 Raynav. It's easy to use, has excellent radar, okay map, and the best depth sounder I've ever used. The capability of overlaying the radar on the chart is a really great tool for those who boat in restricted visibility, as we do here out of Deception Pass. I've had Furuno, Raytheon, and Simrad radars aboard my boats the past few years and haven't had one fail yet - but I prepare and know it can happen.
I don't think an integrated system is any more dangerous than individual units if backed up. My compass is remote, and gyro controlled, to avoid all the manetic junk in the dash area. A little GPS handheld is certainly a good backup, and I use one often as a primary tool just to keep in practice. Paper charts should be aboard, though, and if boating in unfamiliar waters they should be required safety material.
Dusty
Because I've been an unlimited tonnage ocean master for over 50 years and have trekked back and forth to AK from WA in all kinds of weather, I'm interested in anything concerning navigational safety. If a skipper is going to boat at night, or in the fog or poor visibility-- have paper charts aboard and know how to use them. True, it ain't easy in the dark in a bouncing boat, but sure beats swimming.
I like redundancy, and most of the old time skippers I know feel the same way. Electronic gadgets can fail - and always seem to fail when needed most. Relying solely on electronics just isn't smart unless you boat in CAVU weather. And in that case you probably don't need the electronics.
I absolutely love my C-80 Raynav. It's easy to use, has excellent radar, okay map, and the best depth sounder I've ever used. The capability of overlaying the radar on the chart is a really great tool for those who boat in restricted visibility, as we do here out of Deception Pass. I've had Furuno, Raytheon, and Simrad radars aboard my boats the past few years and haven't had one fail yet - but I prepare and know it can happen.
I don't think an integrated system is any more dangerous than individual units if backed up. My compass is remote, and gyro controlled, to avoid all the manetic junk in the dash area. A little GPS handheld is certainly a good backup, and I use one often as a primary tool just to keep in practice. Paper charts should be aboard, though, and if boating in unfamiliar waters they should be required safety material.
Dusty
Alyssa Jean
New member
Thank you Dr.Dusty. I think we can all learn from you. Keep the lessons coming.
Hey, Thanks David!
I'm tearing up my soapbox so I can just enjoy my little C-Salt.
So strange - on my old 85' Lamplighter the 10-year old radar worked great from Jacksonville FL down through the Panama Canal and all the way back to CA. Two generators blew up and the batteries all had to be replaced!
On the way to AK with a 50' Vic Frank custom yacht the boat caught fire (generator room), and we had to limp in to River's Inlet on a single engine with all controls burned up. Radar still worked!
For my next trip to AK in the 22 I'll have one of those slick little 2 kw generators (Yamaha or Honda) aboard -- so the radar will probably die! I can handle that as long as my favorite beer stays cool.
Dusty
I'm tearing up my soapbox so I can just enjoy my little C-Salt.
So strange - on my old 85' Lamplighter the 10-year old radar worked great from Jacksonville FL down through the Panama Canal and all the way back to CA. Two generators blew up and the batteries all had to be replaced!
On the way to AK with a 50' Vic Frank custom yacht the boat caught fire (generator room), and we had to limp in to River's Inlet on a single engine with all controls burned up. Radar still worked!
For my next trip to AK in the 22 I'll have one of those slick little 2 kw generators (Yamaha or Honda) aboard -- so the radar will probably die! I can handle that as long as my favorite beer stays cool.
Dusty
Alyssa Jean
New member
Let me know when you are heading up to AK. I would consider tagging along in the Anna Leigh if I were asked.
El and Bill
New member
Larry asks:
"If you were given a choice between 2 integrated systems that were completely separate from each other or 2 non integrated systems with 6 screens (2 each for radar, sonar, gps) which would you prefer?"
Of course, 2 integrated systems with 2 screens are better than a system with 6 screens -- but that's not my point. I have not suggested two integrated systems.
My point is many boats are currently with all mounted electronics in one screen -- those with a radar, a chartplotter, and a sounder have three mounted screens, each of which can be used for navigating if anything happens to the others.
Dusty said: "I don't think an integrated system is any more dangerous than individual units if backed up. My compass is remote, and gyro controlled, to avoid all the manetic junk in the dash area. A little GPS handheld is certainly a good backup, and I use one often as a primary tool just to keep in practice. Paper charts should be aboard, though, and if boating in unfamiliar waters they should be required safety material."
Again, to clarify, my point is that a single MOUNTED integrated system that replaces three separate MOUNTED systems is more vulnerable to failure. Those MOUNTED systems are the best backup in foul conditions.
I heartily agree that charts, handhelds, & compass are all backups, and we carry all -- but that in foul conditions -- like night, in a fog, in a storm (and of course, none of want to be out in those conditions, but all of us with any experience boating have been caught by unexpected circumtances) -- a MOUNTED system is far superior to handhelds or paper charts. It has also been our experience that many folks, new to boating, have little or no experience with charts, bearings, and small screen handhelds under tough conditions.
"If you were given a choice between 2 integrated systems that were completely separate from each other or 2 non integrated systems with 6 screens (2 each for radar, sonar, gps) which would you prefer?"
Of course, 2 integrated systems with 2 screens are better than a system with 6 screens -- but that's not my point. I have not suggested two integrated systems.
My point is many boats are currently with all mounted electronics in one screen -- those with a radar, a chartplotter, and a sounder have three mounted screens, each of which can be used for navigating if anything happens to the others.
Dusty said: "I don't think an integrated system is any more dangerous than individual units if backed up. My compass is remote, and gyro controlled, to avoid all the manetic junk in the dash area. A little GPS handheld is certainly a good backup, and I use one often as a primary tool just to keep in practice. Paper charts should be aboard, though, and if boating in unfamiliar waters they should be required safety material."
Again, to clarify, my point is that a single MOUNTED integrated system that replaces three separate MOUNTED systems is more vulnerable to failure. Those MOUNTED systems are the best backup in foul conditions.
I heartily agree that charts, handhelds, & compass are all backups, and we carry all -- but that in foul conditions -- like night, in a fog, in a storm (and of course, none of want to be out in those conditions, but all of us with any experience boating have been caught by unexpected circumtances) -- a MOUNTED system is far superior to handhelds or paper charts. It has also been our experience that many folks, new to boating, have little or no experience with charts, bearings, and small screen handhelds under tough conditions.
El and Bill
New member
Been informative and interesting to get folk's opinions on this subject. Sure appreciate all the good posts. We've completed the cruise on the Cumberland and are now a few hundred miles up the Tennessee. Beautiful river.
Bill and El :love --
Agree 100 percent. Every one of these electronic gadgets has a CYA in the book stating not to be used alone for navigation -- and I surely agree. Because of the way we must boat out of Deception -- fog, heavy ship traffic, weather -- shux, you know the drill. Being able to have the MARPA, put the radar on the chart, etc. are all safety factors. Before the C-80 and older Raytheon I had the same setup you have, and was clam happy. They all work great as long as the nut behind the wheel is alert and knows his limitations and has, and knows how to use, backups.
And I really like Garmin -- in fact I had Garmin just before they came out with those beautiful Blue Charts and left me frustrated and unhappy. All marketing. Sort of like my printer -- danged near gave it to me, and I spend all of my booze money on fancy ink and paper!!
Would love to be cruising with you two great folks! Unfortunately gotta stay close to the nest.
Dusty
Agree 100 percent. Every one of these electronic gadgets has a CYA in the book stating not to be used alone for navigation -- and I surely agree. Because of the way we must boat out of Deception -- fog, heavy ship traffic, weather -- shux, you know the drill. Being able to have the MARPA, put the radar on the chart, etc. are all safety factors. Before the C-80 and older Raytheon I had the same setup you have, and was clam happy. They all work great as long as the nut behind the wheel is alert and knows his limitations and has, and knows how to use, backups.
And I really like Garmin -- in fact I had Garmin just before they came out with those beautiful Blue Charts and left me frustrated and unhappy. All marketing. Sort of like my printer -- danged near gave it to me, and I spend all of my booze money on fancy ink and paper!!
Would love to be cruising with you two great folks! Unfortunately gotta stay close to the nest.
Dusty
El and Bill
New member
Dusty --
Sure do wish you here heading up the river with us. We miss you, the good discussions, and the shared hot coffee in the morning. We hope to be back up in the San Juans this fall, and looking forward to more visiting. E&B
Sure do wish you here heading up the river with us. We miss you, the good discussions, and the shared hot coffee in the morning. We hope to be back up in the San Juans this fall, and looking forward to more visiting. E&B
Pat Anderson
New member
Any chance you'll make at least part of the trip fo Desolation Sound September 3 - 18?
El and Bill":34nv0n8g said:Dusty --
Sure do wish you here heading up the river with us. We miss you, the good discussions, and the shared hot coffee in the morning. We hope to be back up in the San Juans this fall, and looking forward to more visiting. E&B
El and Bill
New member
We'd love to, Pat, but with Halcyon back east we reckon we'll stay for the northeastern fall color before heading to the Northwest. Looking forward to cruising with you good folks on the Chesapeake.
El and Bill
New member
Some of you have asked what the commercial folks use, regarding integrated electronic systems. Here is a response from a towboat skipper:
"For our towboats I use separate screens for chartplotter, radar and depth for the simple reason that losing one screen does not mean you lose all those functions.
Many people use combined screens for space saving at the helm, if you do not have that problem, I would use separate screens.
A common setup for vessels in the towboat industry, and what we use is:
Dual Icom VHF
Dedicated digital depth finder
An additional bottom finder for looking for stuff (like a boat whose owner
did not pay attention to his navigation)
Dedicated radar screen
Dedicated chartplotter screen
Some of this stuff may sound like overkill, but redundancy is extremely cheap, compared to what you pay for your boat, insurance, dockage, fuel etc.. Redundancy also allows you to check one system against another, remember the QE2 went aground because the officer on watch did not check one system against another, and a $1.00 electrical connection failed.
Jack TTBG (the towboat guy)"
"For our towboats I use separate screens for chartplotter, radar and depth for the simple reason that losing one screen does not mean you lose all those functions.
Many people use combined screens for space saving at the helm, if you do not have that problem, I would use separate screens.
A common setup for vessels in the towboat industry, and what we use is:
Dual Icom VHF
Dedicated digital depth finder
An additional bottom finder for looking for stuff (like a boat whose owner
did not pay attention to his navigation)
Dedicated radar screen
Dedicated chartplotter screen
Some of this stuff may sound like overkill, but redundancy is extremely cheap, compared to what you pay for your boat, insurance, dockage, fuel etc.. Redundancy also allows you to check one system against another, remember the QE2 went aground because the officer on watch did not check one system against another, and a $1.00 electrical connection failed.
Jack TTBG (the towboat guy)"