I was all set to go with a new 4-WD F-150 ...

marvin4239":kho14c3m said:
T.R. Bauer":kho14c3m said:
For those of you that constantly complain about the outsourcing of good American jobs, look in your driveway. If the car or truck says, Honda, Toyota, Nissan.........you think that might be part of the problem? I think so. But, in retrospect, at least your tow vehicle will match your outboard :)

When I look in my driveway their are 5 vehicles two Chevrolets, two Jeep Cherokee's and a Ford Pickup all made in America. When I retired I bought a new fishing boat and wanted and American made engine and the only thing available was Mercury which is mostly made by Yamaha. While I hope to never own and imported car it's getting harder every day. When I was working I worked in a lot of car plants. Honda in Ohio, Toyota in Indiana and Nissan in Tennesse plus GM, Chrysler, Saturn and Ford in other areas. It's hard to tell today where something is made it you aren't really diligent. A lot of Chevrolets are made in Mexico as are many Dodge trucks. This is kind of off subject but my point is just because a vehicle has an American companies name doesn't necessarily mean its made in America and just because it has a Japanese name doesn't necessarily mean it's made in Japan. :?

And almost any car or truck is made up of parts made all over the world.

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
When you buy your Honda, Toyota, or whatever, do remember they are not part of the automakers union and those jobs from the those automakers pay substantially less, have fewer benefits, and a significantly reduced retirement. While they are decent jobs, don't be fooled into thinking they are jobs like we have at Ford, GM, and Chrysler; they are not. Furthermore, the profits (a substantial amount of $) go to another country and not here. I will not say that if you buy something from overseas that you are traitor, don't care about our own workers, or anything else because the choice is yours. Some other people really go off the deep end on that one..... Choice: that's whats great about America, and that is also our problem. Others have commented that it is getting harder and harder to even find things made in America. It is pretty clear to me why that one is - we aren't buying our own stuff anymore and it didn't used to be that way once upon a time......It is a shame.
 
Coming from someone who has worked in pretty much all the car plants as a Union construction worker the working conditions in the foreign plants was deplorable compared to the American plants. There is one Toyota Plant in California that is Union but all the rest are non-union. Nissan in TN was the worst. Toyota seems to always build union but the in house workers are non-union. The Mercedes Plant outside of Birmingham all the employees from Germany were Union and couldn't believe Americans would work without a Union. Sorry for getting so far off topic.
 
T, J. Bauer wrote:
"For those of you that constantly complain about the outsourcing of good American jobs, look in your driveway. If the car or truck says, Honda, Toyota, Nissan.........you think that might be part of the problem? I think so. But, in retrospect, at least your tow vehicle will match your outboard "

Funny you should say this. When we went to buy our last car (2005) I tried to buy a Chevvie. I figured I could keep that V-6 engine (made in Buffalo, New York,) running for years. When I ordered the car, it turned out that the engine was made in China, and the transmission was from Japan. So I bought a Toyota, more of it made in the USA than the Chevvie. And a better car. 3 years later, GM is now an importer, except for trucks. If you want cars from Mexico, China or Korea, buy a GM car. And they don't have to pay any benefits.

Boris
 
Lots of good stuff here. A few years ago, after some bad health news, I said "the hell with it, I'm gonna own an American car before I die." So I bought a Ford. Suprisingly (and thankfully) both me and the Ford are doing just fine!
:wink:
 
My $.02: I bought a used '05 Ford F-250 Super Duty earlier this year. So far it's a great truck. It's got some dings here and there and 40K miles, but I paid low Kelley Blue Book and it's a crew cab, short bed; perfect. Tows my 20' enclosed car hauler with my car inside like it's not even back there. It'll tow the '25 I still haven't bought too.
 
I lived and taught high school in Fremont, Ca, where GM had an auto plant that employed 7,500 workers, and down the road in Milpitas, Ford had a truck assembly plant with about the same size operation.

Now the Ford plant has been converted to a shopping mall, and the GM plant is a joint venture to build Toyotas between GM and Toyota with about 5000 workers, as I remember, at last count. They're now using the Japanese model of how to run a plant and manage employees, which is radically different than before.

Over the years, I was shocked over a couple of things about the GM plant's operation and GM in general:

1. For years they refused to recognize the threat posed by foreign auto makers, who were gradually making better and better quality cars compared to American brands. GM apparently thought they were so big and Americans so brand loyal that they would always be #1, no matter what they did, built, or sold.

2. Their design of cars after many years finally tried to catch up to the more economical, compact, and higher quality European and Japanese brands. This took 30 years or more, albeit with a couple of early efforts in the 60's in response to the VW/European import craze of the late 50's/early 60's.

3. They were forced to grant very generous wage contracts with the UAW (United Auto Workers) during several strikes. Workers wanted excellent wages, full benefits, and medical and retirement benefits for life. The last I heard a few years ago, was that GM, Ford, and Chrysler estimated their real employment costs (with all eventual benefits) were from about $65-$75 per hour per assembly line employee. Maintainence workers, who work on the equipment, make even higher wages, as do management.

4. There was a great deal of absenteeism, drinking and drugs on the job, and males and female employees were known to make whoopee in the parking lot at lunch break. Some of the stories my students told me would have to be edited out by Tyboo!

I have five vehicles, four of which are American, and one Japanese car, and have tried to support the American worker whenever I can, but the sad fact of life is that many of what used to be Third World underdeveloped/non-industrialized nations have come on line production wise, and we can't compete with their lower wage produced products, etc.

It's a sad fact of life that America as a manufacturing nation is gradually being supplanted and replaced by foreign competitors, except in high-tech industries where we still have an edge or don't allow competition (like for military contracts).

The world has changed, and so has America.

We might as well get used to it and figure out how to make the most of it.

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
I have a 2000 Ford expedition I tow my 19 footer with. After a complete tune up (150000+ miles) it towed with no problems. Love that I barely feel the 19 behind me, but that's why we bought it... the boat size that is.

I've drawn a couple long hills here in the Uwharries with no loss of speed. Kicks down a gear or so, but moves along well.

When hauling the boat back prior to the tune up, I burned more than a tank of gas over the four and a half hour trip - one way. Taking the same trip to the NC Gathering - there and back plus a few miles, I used up just a hair over one tank. Tune ups are nice! At the price of gas a month ago, I figure I paid for half the cost of the tune up in one trip.
 
I have 2 trucks, a 1996 nissan with 275,000 miles that will not die, and a 1998 dodge 2500 turbo diesel. I only own the big one for large towing capacity. I love the cummins diesel, but the truck in all is just ok. As people chimed in , it is not unpatriotic to buy a japanese vehicle. Ask the people who build, sell,work on them,make parts for them etc. In my humble opinion there is a reason the japanese vehicles are so popular, they work ( well and for a long time, mostly problem free). sorry. Is it patriotic to buy an inferior product,then drive it down to walmart and fill lit up with everything chinese to feed our over fed under read families. I dont think so. Have A Good Day
 
newbie":2q8wkn07 said:
I have 2 trucks, a 1996 nissan with 275,000 miles that will not die, and a 1998 dodge 2500 turbo diesel. I only own the big one for large towing capacity. I love the cummins diesel, but the truck in all is just ok. As people chimed in , it is not unpatriotic to buy a japanese vehicle. Ask the people who build, sell,work on them,make parts for them etc. In my humble opinion there is a reason the japanese vehicles are so popular, they work ( well and for a long time, mostly problem free). sorry. Is it patriotic to buy an inferior product,then drive it down to walmart and fill lit up with everything chinese to feed our over fed under read families. I dont think so. Have A Good Day

There is no question that every brand can be very good. I will turn this around a bit: the best truck I have ever owned is a 1978 Ford F-250. I bought it in 1995 and it had 250,000 miles on the original 351. Yep it was getting tired and it still is.......By the way, it has nearly 400,000 thousand on it and it is still going pretty good. It has the original transmission, transfer case, rear end, front end and most of the other parts. I am sure the Toyotas are far better and I have one that I got from my father as he is really old. It has been very good too. I will not state otherwise.

Truth is, I don't care what anyone buys, get what you want. Just don't be fooled into thinking the product over seas is head and shoulders above what our somewhat American companies are making now. They all make a fine product for the most part. The real question is, what country do you want to support? Argue, justify, and substantiate, which one again? I think you already said it.......
 
I think the best vehicle I ever owned as far as maintenance and durability was a 1988 Ford Ranger with the V-6. It had 220,000 miles on it when I traded it with no problems. I think the Mazda trucks are or were made in the same plant. I've got a 96 3/4 ton Ford 4x4 diesel I sometimes tow my 22 with and it's really over kill and rides like a tank. My Jeep Cherokee Hemi tows the 22 well but I've had a lot of maintenace problems with it and it's a gas hog but very comfortable. I think if I was looking for a tow vehicle strickly for the 22 or smaller I'd take a close look at the Ford Rangers. The 2 wheel drive v-6 model with 3.55 gear will tow 5860 lbs and the 4x4 model with the 4.10 gear will tow 5560 lbs. Of course I'd want trailer brakes with this smaller tow vehicle for any long distance towing.
 
Every answer brings a whole new set of questions. Just where do the parts that make up the badged product come from? How do the trade policies effect the manufacturing base at home?. How do the unions effect management's decisions whether or not to outsource? How do the government's policy on health care effect the competitiveness of domestic manufacturing? And on and on. I met an 80 year old guy at the VA hospital who spent three years in a Japanese prison camp. He just bought a new Toyota Tacoma. When I asked him why, he said "sometimes you just gotta let it go and listen to Consumer Reports. Besides, I'm from Tacoma". As good a reason as any, I suppose.
 
T.R. Bauer":1y1a2e6a said:
For those of you that constantly complain about the outsourcing of good American jobs, look in your driveway. If the car or truck says, Honda, Toyota, Nissan.........you think that might be part of the problem? I think so. But, in retrospect, at least your tow vehicle will match your outboard :)

Honda, Nissan and Toyota all have USA factories and last I looked these factories are American jobs with American employees.
 
When I was a kid about 20 I showed up at my dad's house with a VW I had just bought. My step mother immediately started giving me a lecture on buying American made products. She worked for Rambler (remember them). My dad was a WW 2 vet with a Bronze Star. Of course all they drove were Ramblers at the time. After Rambler went out of business all they bought were Toyotas. Myself I made a big part of my living building manufacturing plants in the USA hence my loyalty to American Made products. On the other hand my next door neighbor is a Union offshore tugboat captain. He makes his living bringing imported goods into the US so without foreign trade he'd be hurting. I think it all comes down to what affects you directly. In my case I don't even buy foreign made clothing if I can help it and that is a real challenge. It isn't patriotism at all to me it's simply my livelyhood. As someone said before the great thing about America is we have choice's. What does worry me is if everything is made overseas we will loose that choice.
 
Marvin brings up another point that I didn't think to mention regarding the auto industry that also applies to many other American manufacturers and their products, viability, and economic health.

When faced with the obvious need to produce smaller, more efficient cars, American auto manufacturers often (maybe usually) just outsourced the manufacturing to another foreign manufacturer.

Why invest the $$$ in the design, tooling, and assembly line construction for a new vehicle when you can simply enter into a contract with an existing foreign manufacturer who makes a product on which you can simply change a few pieces of chrome on, put your own trademarks/logos on, and sell as a Chevy, Ford, or Chrysler product?

Nevermind what it does to the American workforce, but, as Marty adroitly points out, a myriad of factors complicate the decision of whether to import a Mazda with a Dodge badge on it, or have to build a new vehicle here in the USA with all the labor laws and countless other considerations.

Sooner or later, however, most consumers caught on to the scheme and just bought the foreign car itself, instead of the one wearing the "Buy-American" t-shirt on the outside. Remember the auto dealers with rows of American flags waving overhead?

This whole scenario was preceded by just about the same series of events in the electronics industry, as American TV, stereo, and other electronics manufacturers shut down their American factories and had everything built overseas: first in Japan, then Korea, Taiwan, China, Indonesia, Mexico, etc.

Some folks on this site have found the discussions we're having about the Stock Market, Oh Oh (economic developments), and the like unnecessarily depressing and a distraction, but I'm convinced that the events that are happening are leading to a major economic reorganization world-wide, that Americans are going to have to look at their position in the world much differently in terms of economics, politics and militarily, and their pocketbooks and lifestyles are going to have to adjust accordingly.

And I don't want to walk into it blindly, or lead by some self-interested businessman telling me to by whatever he happens to have to sell for his profit.

I happen to believe we've got a a very talented group of people in our extended family here, and I'm anxious to hear from and discuss other folks views on just where we're going. And I'd rather talk it over with a group of mutually interested friends than an investment banker, stock broker, security salesman, or anyone else who is out to use my hard worked for and accumulated investments as a tool to earn commissions for his or her own gain. That's why I asked Bill all those questions above for openers. I trust him and his judgement more than anyone else I know on these matters.

I'm going to Eagle Lake today for a week of trout fishing, but will be back next Saturday evening. Enjoy discussing this topic regardless of which thread it comes up or continues under. It's a far better use of our time than trying to convince each other to vote for one or the other Presidential candidate, which mostly just becomes divisive and changes no on else's mind, anyway. And, on the upside, hopefully, Mike won't have to edit out any of the off the wall parts of the discussion, either!

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Joe...

I do believe I enjoyed reading (thrice) your last posting more than most I have scanned in months. Just a lot of calm logic there... Thanks.

toms
 
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