How does this sound - fuel tank pump-out setup...

S

Sunbeam

Active member
Hi folks,

I'd like to remove the fuel that's in my tanks right now (and have had reason to want to do it in the past as well). Siphoning or pumping with a motor bulb hasn't worked all that well in the past, so I'd like to set up a system with an electric fuel pump that I can use from time to time.

(Getting a siphon hose down into the bottom of the fuel tanks through the fills doesn't work very well, and siphoning from the "back" can't overcome the air in the fuel/water separator.)

Since I don't want to blow up, I'd like to check in with you all to see if my proposed system will be okay.

I have a Honda quick connect fitting on one of the "outbound" ports on my Racor filter, and the Racor filter is just ahead of the cable boot in the splashwell, so this will all be outside the boat.

I'm basing my plan off of this one used by DaNag (who, as far as I know, is still with us :mrgreen: )

I just completed a nifty way to address this, with very little muss/fuss. I ordered up a Carter fuel pump - known in automotive circles for their quality and longevity. It comes with a bracket, and input/output nipples for 3/8" fuel line.

The pump is portable, with the bracket attached to a piece of wood. When in use, I set it down low between the tanks. I ran the IN line to a quick disconnect fitting that attaches to my Racor filter/separator, and the OUT line simply goes out my drain plug hole in the back of the boat, into a receptacle on the ground. Power is handled via aligator clips at the battery, with a switch inline to avoid sparks when connecting.

It's not super fast, probably around 2 gallons a minute...but works great.

Based on this, I plan to order the same pump as he did (Carter P4070). I'll use a length of fuel hose from the Honda quick connect on the Racor to the pump, then another from the pump to a portable gas can on the ground (pump would be outside the boat, mounted to a board). For wiring I figured I'd use a length of 10/2 I have that is about 20' long to a battery that is.... 20' away!, and then use a Blue Sea ignition protected switch that I have as a spare sitting around.

The pump does not mention being ignition protected, but I see that one of its typical uses is to transfer fuel from aircraft to barrel, out of boat tanks, etc. But... I don't want to blow up either. This will be outside the boat, and in a pretty well ventilated space, but is it okay?

When doing this, what about the fact that the hose will be going into the open top of the fuel jug. Is there a need to "seal" that opening? How far should the pump be from the opening? (It will be downhill from the Racor to the pump to the fuel container, since the boat is on the trailer.)

I want to have a setup I can use in future, so while it doesn't need to be a professional constant-duty type thing, I want it to be safe and don't need it to be the cheapest possible thing (the Carter pump is around $50 vs. the $10 pumps I also found on Amazon).

I have plenty of fuel hose (left over from when I did the new fuel hose on my boat), plus fittings, wire, and the switch.

Thanks for any input. (I've read other threads on this but still wasn't sure about the details so figured I'd ask.)

Thanks,
Sunbeam
 
Hi Kevin,

I vaguely remembered someone showing a setup, but somehow missed that thread in my search earlier today. I have a question for you: I see a bulb in the line like one that's in a typical outboard motor line. Is that necessary with the pump? Or why do you have it (maybe something I haven't thought of).

Also, you mention taking the "usual" precautions. Obviously no smoking, keep sparks away, etc. But I posted in case there was something else I'm missing. I know people do things like this every day, but not me, and I don't want anything to go wrong (or to not go wrong but due to luck not preparation).

I see someone asked you in the thread about whether a ground wire to earth was needed. I would have just wired to the positive and negative of the battery, but is an actual "earth" needed? Do you do anything special about whatever fumes might come out the neck of the gas jug around the inbound hose?

I hadn't thought of using clear hose (was going to use leftover fuel line from when I re-did the lines on the boat). But I can see where clear hose would make it easy to see what was going on. I take it that's okay since it's a "quick" use and fuel never sits in it? Is this just typical clear hose like you'd buy at the hardware store?

BTW, here is a photo of Kev's setup from his album:

Boat_fuel_pump_transfer.jpg
 
Sunbeam,

Re: use of clear tubing:

I have no experience with transfers such as you are doing, but as a longtime organic chemist, I am a little concerned about use of "hardware store" clear tubing. Most of it is similar to Tygon, or actually manufactured by Tygon, and likely designed for use with water and or water based media. You should select a type which is designed for use with fuel. Wikipedia has a pretty good summary of what Tygon offers: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tygon_tubing

Other manufacturers of tubing should also have tubing rated for fuel. Avoid the aquarium tubing grades.
 
It sounds like sunbeam will be using real fuel line hose so no concerns there. The rest of the parts seem credible to me and your lines should provide some basic grounding to a fuel can sitting on the ground. I would run it!

About the problems with siphoning through the fuel filter. I do it regularly for dinghy or even lawn mower gas and never have a problem so I guess there are some filter variables at play.

Greg
 
I'll stick with the fuel line as was my original plan.

I was surprised when the siphon didn't work (this was a couple of years ago), but from what I read it's "normal" that it won't siphon through the Racor, due to there being air in it. Interesting that you are able to though (?).

I won't be doing this super often, but there have been just enough times that I wanted to be able to empty the tanks that I now want to set something up that I can use from time-to-time when it comes up.

What do you mean when you say "my lines should provide some basic grounding to a fuel can sitting on the ground"? I do vaguely know that plastic gas "cans" can have issues with static, and I'm in an atmospherically dry place. The "cans" (plastic) will be on concrete. And of course there is no metal fuel nozzle to "ground" on the metal fuel fill. So is there something else I should be doing?
 
Sunbeam,

For me the bulb is necessary. I had an old fuel line with the fitting on it already so it was a way to recycle the fuel line. Without priming the line with the bulb the pump just sucks air.

Dave - Regarding the clear fuel line rating - good question. The tubing reel states "Handles Variety Of Chemicals, Solvents, Gases, Liquids, Acids And Alkalis". I have been using the clear line for over 6 years. I do like the ability to see the fuel flow thru the line. I use the pump once a year for about an hour each spring to remove as much fuel as possible before starring a new season. The transfer is performed in an open area with safety precautions taken.

Kevin
 
Kevin,

I was thinking about the bulb last night, and realized that maybe it was needed for priming. After all, one has to pump the bulb to get the initial fuel to the engine pump too. And my Racor is mounted above the level of the fuel tanks. I have an extra one so I think I'll put it in the line.

I also remembered another reason why I might have had a hard time siphoning via the Racor port: When I stopped in the Yamaha place yesterday to ask them how they removed fuel from tanks (and mentioned how siphoning through the racor hadn't worked) they reminded me of the anti-siphon valves in the fuel line (pickup) fittings in the tanks. I do remember those being called out on the Moeller tank literature.

I did once manage to siphon through the fuel filler (which of course bypasses those valves), but it was a pain due to the hose curling, the deepest part of the tank being opposite the fill, and the dogleg in the port tank fill hose. Hence wanting a different method now.
 
AstoriaDave":s6sfafke said:
Sunbeam,

Re: use of clear tubing:

I have no experience with transfers such as you are doing, but as a longtime organic chemist, I am a little concerned about use of "hardware store" clear tubing. Most of it is similar to Tygon, or actually manufactured by Tygon, and likely designed for use with water and or water based media. You should select a type which is designed for use with fuel. Wikipedia has a pretty good summary of what Tygon offers: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tygon_tubing

Other manufacturers of tubing should also have tubing rated for fuel. Avoid the aquarium tubing grades.
Click to expand...

I agree
Use Tygon, gas-resistant vinyl tubing (clear or transparent yellow -commonly used in small outdoor equipment motors) is needed to see the fuel otherwise used neoprene.


How is the pump grounded? or is it a concern? I thought a ground wire from the pump to the ground outside of the boat would be preferred
 
Applause all around, another worthwhile project from Sunbeam, shared eloquently and visually so all can benefit!!

I am a BIG FAN of storing boats through winter drained of fluids, NOT full. Last winter's boat warehouse fire in Oregon is an example of why: less risk.

Also, having a good way to purge accumulated water from you tanks other than pumping it slowly through your racor is great, because there is a threshold you pass with water volume in your tank where you will start to get too much water mixed into your gas line and it can fill up a racor quickly! You can be just fine in calm weather, then you get out in some slop and your engine won't perform because your racor gets filled! In winter boating, the water can cause other issues like ice in the fuel line blocking flow.

I have a setup like this, but it is one I use at work and have any number of people using as needed, so we do it in a "lowest common denominator" sort of way with a separate battery and more tubing so all the electric stuff happens as far from the fuel tanks as is practical. It's a wonderful thing to be able to clear your fuel tanks!
 
To give credit where credit is due, it's Montana Kev who shared the project so nicely. I just pasted the photo he had referred to from his album to this thread so that others could easily see it.

After looking over his setup, plus reading DaNag's and a couple of others, I'm going to do something similar. I will use a separate battery that's around 20' away, but with an ignition protected switch close to the boat so that I can shut it off when the container is full. After reading the reviews on the "good" Carter pump that DaNag used, I decided not to get it. Reason is that instead of normal electrical stud terminals you can put ring terminals on, apparently it has some sort of smooth studs with little, proprietary (weakish/don't lose them or else) plastic terminals. (Maybe it didn't have those when DaNag bought it.) So I went with the same Airtex pump that Montana Kev used.

Two things I still am not sure about:

1) Is there any problem with the fact that the gas jug will have an opening at the top that is larger than the fuel hose going into it? (Fumes-wise?).

2)Do I need to do anything extra for grounding (there will be a positive and negative wire to the battery, but in addition to that)?

I will be "sort of" in a building. Meaning a covered storage place with huge doors on each end, so a fair amount of flow through air. And no other electrical items that may come on and make sparks.

I am really looking forward to having a way to empty the tanks when I want to. This time it's because they have old fuel in them (it was stabilized, but it's old and it's been hot where I have it stored - no way do I want that going into my precious, clean carburetors). But the last time (when I siphoned but it didn't work very well) it was a different situation: I had just filled both tanks and then decided to boat someplace 1,500 miles away instead of where I was. Hence I wanted to put the fuel in my tow vehicle instead of having all 40 gallons riding at the very back of my boat/trailer all that way. And also I'm not keen on storing the boat with fuel in the tanks: Fumes come out the vents and although I guess many people do it (indoor storage), I am not totally comfortable with it.
 
A very interesting thread Brats!! I've wanted to drain my tanks on several occasions also but stressed about just how to go about it. With the long hoses ,some distance & a separate remote battery makes me feel better. Thanks boys! Now, about the fuel pickup tubes in the tanks. When the tank is drained, is it compleatly empty or is there still a bit of fuel left? The last bit of fuel is where any water in the tank would be. I don't know at what point the pickup is located in the tank. My guess would be, in the center & at the rear.
 
Sunbeam,

You do come up with the moet interesting questions!

I see that others have settled which clear tubing to use. Good.

Two more issues seem unresolved:

1. Is it OK to run the output hose into an open mouthed container (sans grounding wire from delivery hose to container): I think not. Reflect on fueling an aircraft tank. See answer to 2. below

2. What should be grounded? When? Again, reflect on fueling an aircraft tank. Answer: basically, everything, from before any pumping has occurred through the complete pumping process to cessation of pumping and resealing of exit and entrance containers.

Someone with experience fueling aircraft may have a better answer than mine. I would be interested in it.
 
Astoria Dave,

Ha, just when I thought I was good to go. But no, there were some lingering doubts. And it sounds like I'm not alone. Of course the guys at the Yamaha dealer were like "Oh we just use these pumps all the time. No biggie." Maybe they're right, or maybe they're just lucky. I'd rather not rely on luck.

So, can anyone explain just what I need to do to make my proposed system safer? But stopping short of some impossible setup that just won't ever be perfect enough?

How do I "ground" things? Pretend I'm totally unfamiliar with this aspect of it, because I am.

I have the pump ordered (the same one Montana Kev shows in his photo); I have the fuel hose (not clear); I have 20' of 10AWG duplex wire; I have an ignition safe switch (Blue Sea battery switch I have a spare of); I have an extra battery (AGM) that's 20' away from the boat; I have a bulb to put in the line to get it started; and I have a 6-gallon plastic fuel jug (the basic jerry jug).

What do I need to do to get the last 5% of the way to actually doing this safely? The pump will arrive Tuesday, and I'd like to pump the tanks then so I can get on my way to Powell.

Sounds like a few others, like me, have wanted to do this but just not quite been sure what is safe and what is not. So this should be useful to more than just me, I think.

Thanks,
Sunbeam
 
Not to throw wrench into the works :wink: But I shaker/siphoned 30 gals out after returning with fuel from Powell. I know I got almost all of it when I filled in Anacortes last month. It won't take long, and no worries.
 
I don't know if I saw or copied Montana Kev's setup, but my pump is very similar. This was several years ago, just one of my water in the gas episodes, it worked great!

I have been thinking of taking it on the Great Loop to pump gas from jerry cans to the tank to avoid the possibility of spills while pouring from the can into the tank.

Fuel_Pump.jpg
 
Sunbeam,

I think you are there, if you work out a way to eliminate buildup of static electricity during transfer, by grounding all of the components to a common point. I mentioned procedures used in aircraft refueling/defueling. This link outlines those procedures. I suspect it will reassure you. http://www.experimentalaircraft.info/fl ... ueling.php

The operative guideline from the link is this: The aircraft and fueling vehicles or equipment should be bonded together to dissipate static electricity collected during refueling.

At a marine fuel dock, working with two "grounded" systems, all you have to do is ensure that there is no static electric spark jumping from one to the other when the gas cap is open, and then during fueling keep the metal fuel nozzle in contact with the metal filler receptacle throughout. To defuel your tank(s), the same principles apply, even though the fuel is moving from boat tank to an external gas can.

Screens on the tank vents prevent any fumes exiting the vents from carrying flame into the tanks, the other possible point of ignition.
 
Lost Petrel":1lp8tgrd said:
Not to throw wrench into the works :wink: But I shaker/siphoned 30 gals out after returning with fuel from Powell. I know I got almost all of it when I filled in Anacortes last month. It won't take long, and no worries.
Click to expand...

I have a simple siphon, and I sized it up; but given my past experience with siphoning through the fuel fills, it doesn't work very well (for me at least). The problems I had were as follows:

1) The fuel fills lead down to the high side of the tank.

2) The hose always wanted to curl at the bottom.

3) The port side filler hose has a pretty good dog-leg, just to add to the challenge.

Perhaps the 25 is a bit easier, and or other people have better technique (wouldn't be surprised). I did eventually get the siphon to work, but I'd really like to have an easy way to just hook up to the Honda quick connect on the Racor, and do it that way. Also has the advantage of only having to set it up once (then use the selector valve to switch between tanks). Of course I don't want to blow up in the process, hence my asking those in the know about the finer points.
 
AstoriaDave":zcvhzea3 said:
Sunbeam,

I think you are there, if you work out a way to eliminate buildup of static electricity during transfer, by grounding all of the components to a common point.
Click to expand...

I'll see what I can figure out on the grounding. That was what I didn't understand (still don't, but haven't read the link yet). Maybe I was being lazy and just hoping someone would tell me what to do :D

I do understand about the normal filling. I grounded my metal fillers for that reason (after researching about that). But of course I'll be bypassing those, and the equipment I'm going to use now doesn't have any metal (just hose, etc.). Plus plastic "cans," which I'm sure only make it worse. And I'm in a very dry climate.

Pat: Your system looks great. How do you ground your system to eliminate the danger of static electricity?

(Same question for Montana Kev if he's reading along.)
 
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