How about...a Marinaut 25?

[starcrafttom]

What is gained in a 27 that is not gained in a 25? well as a owner of a 27 c-dory I will tell you. DECK SPACE. yes its as easy as that. My cabin ,head, berth are all close to or the same as a 25 but I have a lot of deck space. this is not a little thing my friends. It allows us to entertain 6 adults on the back deck with out stepping on each other. 25 only has room for 4 and your still right on top of each other. I allows Susan and I a little breathing room when we are on anchor or fishing. It allows me to fish 4 in comfort on the back deck with out the captain in the cabin driving wandering what the hell is going on back there.

With the canvas up its like a great big sun room on the water with lots of room. I like to stretch out and read with my ft up on a ice chest. Never could do that in a 22. I also allows me to run with half the canvas up to stay out of the rain and the other half down so the deck is open to fish. In the 22 or a 25 its always a argument about having the top up if its raining and I'm fishing. I hate a top up when I'm fishing. gets in the way a lot. now we can meet half way with the top half up and miss prissy can sit out of the rain with out being in the cabin.
Don't just make everything bigger, spend the length where it is needed, on the back deck. Ranger saw that this was a need and that's why they went to a 27. Their 25 was two tight for 4 adults to sit in the back in comfort. the 27 allows a little more room and its great.

Just for scale, my 27's rear deck it 9 ft long.

One more pitch for the bigger dinette. I would much prefer a off set cabin and get a larger table and more leg room in the head then have more pass by room in the walk way. my table is not as big as Rogers on his 25 cruise ship but its a lot bigger then on the tom cats. When in the cabin I will be sitting not dancing, i need the room where i sit not where i stand. just my opinion.

 

[Chester]

Oh, and heated marble floors in the head... :roll:

 

[starcrafttom]

I will agree with Roger bum about the 27 pilot house. I really liked that boat and the sea sport 27 pilot house. large table and a raised captains chair with a co pilot seat. The one draw back to my 27 is not forward seat for susan. but I would go with a outboard OR a one level rear deck. I hate the raised motor hatch.

 

[rogerbum]

I will agree with Roger bum about the 27 pilot house. I really liked that boat and the sea sport 27 pilot house. large table and a raised captains chair with a co pilot seat. The one draw back to my 27 is not forward seat for susan. but I would go with a outboard OR a one level rear deck. I hate the raised motor hatch.

I also hate the IO motor hatch and would replace that will (Les will love this) a bracket and and OB (or an OB hung on the transom).

 

[Rob & Karen]

What would you want in a 27 that you wouldn't have in a 25? This is a serious question, I'm not being rhetorical. If (as a designer/builder) you don't increase the width of a boat then I'm left wondering what folks would want to see added due to the extra 2' in length in an M27.

Les

Les,

When I think about a new boat, it is fully cruise ready and very comfortable to live and cruise on for 2-3 months at a time. I would be comparing it to the Rosborough 246 and Ranger 27. Hopefully it would be not quite so heavy as a RF246 and not as complicated as the R27....I like outboard power. For me the proposed uses would be the Great Loop, river cruising, the Bahamas, wintering in the Florida Keys, etc. A 27 would allow more storage, more gas tankage (maybe 120 gallons), more water tankage (maybe 75 gallons), larger battery bank, space for an inverter, generator storage, etc. A propane stove/oven combo would be nice as well. It would also have a larger cockpit, and larger v-berth. If it is longer, it will probably be at least a little taller just for asthetics, which will provide more headroom. In short, everything you need to spend alot of time on the boat, with little time required in marinas or plugged in to a power source.

Also, I think the 8.5' beam is important. I want to be able to pull it out and trailer it whenever and wherever I want. I don't want to apply for permits, nor do I want to worry about being pulled over and ticketed for a wide load. If I couldn't have those things, I would not bother with a trailerable boat. Instead, I would go with a used, non-trailerable 35-40' boat.

Of course I understand you are going to have to build what you think you can sell the most of. I am just trying to put into words what my dream boat looks like. Good luck with whatever you decide to build.

Rob

 

[Bess-C]

Wow Les,
Did you ever stir up a hornet's nest. My suggestion is to skip all of the intervening steps over the next 15 years and just build the 45 footer now. That will allow you to have berths for 8 and 2 heads with showers. You can cruise with your extended family and have a table for 8 on the sun deck. You can also add enough fuel to go to Alaska and 200 gallons of water.

The commercial license might be a little inconvenient, but if you keep the height low enough and the beam under 15 feet, a used Peterbilt will take you all over America.
Lyle

 

[localboy]

Oh, and heated marble floors in the head... :roll:

:lol: You forgot the roof-top hot tub... :wink:

 

[Bill Uffelman]

Here's the 28' that may do what you want in the M27 dream boat.

http://oceanlines.biz/2009/03/north-pac ... t-trawler/

http://www.cmdboats.com/trailertrawler28.htm

Bill Uffelman
Las Vegas NV

 

[rogerbum]

Here's the 28' that may do what you want in the M27 dream boat.

http://oceanlines.biz/2009/03/north-pac ... t-trawler/

http://www.cmdboats.com/trailertrawler28.htm

Bill Uffelman
Las Vegas NV

Close but that's a semi-displacement hull and not really fast enough to get me to the fishing grounds like I want. I did however find the interior layout interesting. The did a settee and a narrow table that folds out to get a larger dining area in an 8' 6" wide beam.

 

[Rick from Maine]

Hi Les,

I really appreciate that you are soliciting, considering, and analyzing comments from C-Brats for a future design.

For what it's worth:
1. I like the concept of the existing Marinaut being just large enough to have an enclosed head. The head issue is important to the distaff side, while still maintaining the smallest possible size for performance, portability and maintenance. Porta Potty is preferred to holding tank. Shower is not that important.

2. A dinette that seats 4 would be our choice. When cruising with other C-Brats we frequently get together for meals (Day trips with other couples, too.). Our 22's make it tough to feed 4 in the cabin.

3. A single engine with a kicker is my choice for reliability, redundancy, and lifetime cost.

4. Increasing the side decks to 7-8", would be preferable to increasing the Cabin width. Many C-Brats are Middle Aged, going forward we need more foot room for stability, as our balance isn't what it used to be.

5. Having the copilot seat able to face forward is good but not a deal breaker.

6. We always use the convertible dinette to sleep on. It's important to keep that dinette easy for one person to convert to a berth and back to a table.

Thanks for getting our input, Rick from Maine

 

[KickerDRB]

Since we pulled out the tape measure in a few previous posts. How about hanging the OB on an Armstrong bracket? Transform the motor well into deck space / fishbox / storage. Extend the cabin and build a U shaped dinette on the port side…
Regards,
Dave

NO! Oh, and No, No, No!

Ah, well I really meant NO!!!

The only two applications where engine brackets make any sense are: 1) for manufacturers that want to make one hull and offer it with inboard power, I/O power, or outboard power, and 2) for manufacturers of specific hull types like deep-v and flats boats. We don't fit in either category.

It would be cheaper and easier for me to just make the boat longer. Once the mold is built nothing costs less than another 30" of fiberglass.

If you want a Marinaut 275 (which is the length the M25 would be with a bracket) let me know!

(Please take this in the irascible manner it was intended.)

Les

Les,

OK fair enough, That is why you build the boats. I don't want to hijack your thread, so maybe sometime in the future could you drop me a line or post your thoughts on the pros/cons and design aspects of brackets/extended transoms. I am always looking for the next boat so any education you would be willing to impart would be appreciated.

My experience with ET's is limited to the typical Alaska boat (Hewescraft) and the old threads about Beer:Thirty

thanks,
Dave

 

[Grumpy]

Les,

At this rate you can just take the plans for the 215 and read them in metres

M

 

[Will-C]

I'm in Rob and Karen's corner. I think their are a lot of folks retired or getting ready to retire and are planning on being loopers than people realize. Two of the folks I cruise with who formerly owned C-Dory 22' are in this category. One has already purchased a new truck and a new 27' Ranger Tug. The other guy is looking at Rossies and American Tugs. I plan to try it on our 23 if we ever get around to making the trip. The additional time spent living on a boat has people looking for something relatively fuel efficient,a decent ride with the room to have amenities along to make the trip a little more comfortable for the women that are a part of the crew as Rob mentioned. Usually longer boats ride a little better. I would not be for going over the 8.5 beam as permits road limitations might be a deal breaker for some. Why not draw up a 27 concept see how people react. Stretching a 215 just enough to add a potty/shower would not make it that much more attractive to potential loopers IMHO.
D.D[/quote]

 

[SENSEI]

from the response you are getting here it looks like one of the most important items after a enclosed head is a table for four. there have been several references to my 25 interior
I am throwing it out to you Les, to come over and have a looksee at her.
she sits here in the Barn and is out of the weather.
I like the Idea of the offset door.by having an offset door you can then use a sliding door and that gives you more room in the cockpit for chairs or crab & shrimp pots, or Ice chests or fish lockers ,etc.

 

[Les Lampman]

Les,

Loving this conversation. Having owned a 22' and a 27 footer, let me throw in my two bits.

1. I think having a 4 person dinette is a waste if it involves eliminating storage or passage room. On the Devlin and Campion, the table sits in the garage. We used tv or laptop trays. With guests, we go to the cockpit and use deck chairs.

2. I wouldn't go with a 27 footer and a 8.5 beam. Looks funky. Also, the handling could be whacked. I'd go with a 24 or 25 foot length and keep it trailerable. The CD 29' was a mess, in my opinion.

Consider Tollycraft. Their best seller was the 26 footer. It's gone and so is the Venture 26, which is my favorite CD. Replace them and you could find a real solid marketing niche. I wouldn't consider the Ranger boats serious competition. They are slow boats...not suitable for fishing or fast cruising.

What size would be the berth on a 25 footer-ish boat?

-Greg

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the thoughts.

The berth in the Marinaut 255 that was in my teaser drawing is 6' 6", I'd try to stick with that even if the boat ends up at 25-feet.

Funny you should mention the Tolly 26. It has the 4-person dinette, a decent galley, a large berth, a large cockpit, and lots of passageway space. All it took to get that was a 10-feet beam...beam rules! Oh, and it's 26' 8" long. But for most folks it's not a very good trailer boat; it's wide, heavy, and tall.

It's also a fuel hog but it reminds me of running around in a big 'ole Cadillac (the old-fashioned kind); man, is it roomy and comfortable.

Les

 

[Les Lampman]

If you were going to do a 27' Marinaut, I'd look for something that's quite a bit different and go with a layout and design that's similar to the (one-off?) 27' C-Dory that Aviq has. That's a completely different boat and I can't think of a competitor to it in the current marketplace. I and several others here have lusted after this boat. I don't quite know exactly why, I just think it's a cool cabin design that provides for a lot more room.

Hey! I know that boat! I went to pick it up in Gig Harbor when it was purchased and towed it back here for some upgrades to get it ready to go for the new owner so I got to be around it for some time.

The complaint I normally get on a pilothouse boat (like this one or a Nordic 26, etc) is that in a short length there's a lot of up-and-down travel as one moves from aft cabin to pilothouse to forward cabin. Also, some folks don't seem to care for being "down" in the aft cabin where you can't see out all the way around when at the dinette and such. I know that's a really personal thing but that has a lot of affect on sales.

As cool as us guys think a raised pilothouse boat is I get the feeling that most ladies prefer a boat where the cabin is open, light, and airy and where the whole group onboard can be together. No?

Les

 

[Les Lampman]

I will agree with Roger bum about the 27 pilot house. I really liked that boat and the sea sport 27 pilot house. large table and a raised captains chair with a co pilot seat. The one draw back to my 27 is not forward seat for susan. but I would go with a outboard OR a one level rear deck. I hate the raised motor hatch.

I also hate the IO motor hatch and would replace that will (Les will love this) a bracket and and OB (or an OB hung on the transom).

Roger,

There's nothing wrong with a well designed bracket when retrofitting an existing boat. The one on Tom's boat works great.

My comment regarding brackets was only intended to take in new boats. Unless (as a manufacturer) you're going to offer a boat with a full-height flat transom so that you can offer multiple power sources I don't see resorting to a bracket.

Brackets really began to be common when modern outboards really came into their own (reliable and with lots of horsepower) and manufacturers building I/O powered boats then started offering brackets to accommodate outboards.

It still makes more sense to me to offer a bracket to add something you don't already have rather than design specifically for a bracket. I'm sure there are exceptions but I don't see them in the type of boats we're building. We don't offer an I/O powered model so if we wanted to use a bracket I'd still have to change the mold to get rid of the motorwell. At that point it's just as easy to change the mold to just add the 30" the typical bracket adds.

Les

 

[Les Lampman]

Les,

When I think about a new boat, it is fully cruise ready and very comfortable to live and cruise on for 2-3 months at a time. I would be comparing it to the Rosborough 246 and Ranger 27. Hopefully it would be not quite so heavy as a RF246 and not as complicated as the R27....I like outboard power. For me the proposed uses would be the Great Loop, river cruising, the Bahamas, wintering in the Florida Keys, etc. A 27 would allow more storage, more gas tankage (maybe 120 gallons), more water tankage (maybe 75 gallons), larger battery bank, space for an inverter, generator storage, etc. A propane stove/oven combo would be nice as well. It would also have a larger cockpit, and larger v-berth. If it is longer, it will probably be at least a little taller just for asthetics, which will provide more headroom. In short, everything you need to spend alot of time on the boat, with little time required in marinas or plugged in to a power source.

Also, I think the 8.5' beam is important. I want to be able to pull it out and trailer it whenever and wherever I want. I don't want to apply for permits, nor do I want to worry about being pulled over and ticketed for a wide load. If I couldn't have those things, I would not bother with a trailerable boat. Instead, I would go with a used, non-trailerable 35-40' boat.

Of course I understand you are going to have to build what you think you can sell the most of. I am just trying to put into words what my dream boat looks like. Good luck with whatever you decide to build.

Rob

Rob,

This is good stuff and thanks for taking the time to post it. I do want to know what folks' dream boats are (in the sizes we're contemplating).

And oddly enough, it's not about building what I think we can sell the most of in a purely bean-counter kind of way. I want to build boats people fall in love with. I'd rather build 12 well-loved boats a year than two dozen "they're ok" boats. It was never my intention to be in the mass produced boat business; much the same way that a custom home builder (are there any left?) isn't really interested in building a whole sub-division of spec homes. So finding out what folks really want in a boat is a very important thing for me so that when/if we build it, it meets the expectations of the folks that are most likely to purchase and use it (and hopefully love it).

Now, to be totally realistic...if we go to 27-feet it's going to be awfully difficult to weigh much less than the RF-246 as it's not a particularly heavy boat. It becomes heavy by virtue of being 27.5' long (with the hull extension), by having a 120-gallon fuel capacity, by carrying 40-odd gallons of water, by accommodating large batteries, by having lots of storage, and by (usually) having a couple of heavy motors on the stern.

And here's another thing that usually comes up...a self-bailing deck. Up until the boat becomes large enough to carry the height of sides (depth of hull) necessary to honestly get the cockpit deck high enough off the water to be really self-bailing then it's more useful on the trailer for hosing out the cockpit. Any weight in the cockpit pushes the stern down enough so that the self-bailing feature becomes a self-filling feature. This is actually the case on the RF-246 as well.

We didn't try to get a self-bailing deck in the M215 and it isn't in the proposed Marinaut 25, and because (so far) the M27 would be a stretched 25 it wouldn't be in that model either.

Since we have saddle fuel tanks there's no need to raise the cockpit deck to accommodate an under the floor fuel tank. Also we don't want a step down into the cabin. I also feel that when folks are leaning over the side of the boat (to rinse their hands, to handle a fish, to grab a crab/shrimp float, etc) that it's much safer if they're not reaching over with their feet far above the waterline, which very much invites a tail-over-teakettle situation (ending in a big splash). And finally, we want to stick with the one-piece "floor pan" and not end up with joints and seams that can leak. It's a lot easier (and has better results) if the floor pan drops right onto the "step" that's built into the hull to accept the lip of the floor pan; a lot of elevation change would make that a real challenge.

Again I'll go back to wanting to keep the profile low and the boat as light as we can. I don't want it to have huge slab sides.

I do wonder if folks are so programmed to expect (want/need) a self-bailing deck on a 27-footer that without it our boat would not be accepted.

Les

 

[Les Lampman]

Wow Les,
Did you ever stir up a hornet's nest. My suggestion is to skip all of the intervening steps over the next 15 years and just build the 45 footer now. That will allow you to have berths for 8 and 2 heads with showers. You can cruise with your extended family and have a table for 8 on the sun deck. You can also add enough fuel to go to Alaska and 200 gallons of water.

The commercial license might be a little inconvenient, but if you keep the height low enough and the beam under 15 feet, a used Peterbilt will take you all over America.
Lyle

May the powers-that-be forever hold me in enough favor to keep me from ever wanting to build a 45-footer.

Les

 

[Will-C]

self draining decks seem to be the norm on the east coast anyway, if you can do it in the design phase I think it would be a good idea. Otherwise folks would feel the need to keep the back covered if moored or on a dock with out shore power.
D.D.