Heaters and Stoves

Thanks Joe of Sea Wolf
I think the most common factory-installed Wallas is the flush mount, not the surface mount. The surface mount just sits on top of a flat surface, rather that down into the countertop. I'd guess it's probably the same unit put into a housing, but I'm just wondering if there are issues I'm not considering other than the one you mention about the vent.
 
Rod- Good information and discussion!

The more one seems to get into this heater issue, the deeper the complications get, and the the more minder the boggler becomes. But precisely because it's so complex to seemingly defy simple solution, it lures one back to reconsider the problem, over and over.

There are times when I come back to the conclusion that a giant kerosene lantern vented to the outside would make a great little heater/fireplace with a lot of ambiance and be almost foolproof in operation. (!) Would look very nautical with its polished brass, glass outer body, and chimney, etc.

For anyone considering any of the different propane or kerosene convection heaters or the more complex forced air mini-furnaces, I think it is wise to put the name of the unit into a good search engine and read all the discussions that have been written about the particular unit on websites like this, but for other boats. There's a lot of info here atout the Wallas, but the Espar, Webasto, Toyoset and other units are enigmas if you don't look around elsewhere. There's also good info out there on the Force 10 and Dickinson units as well. The info covers both installation and operation issues, and covers problems that can't always be anticipated, and their practical solution.

There's also a Platinum Cat heater that's very interesting. It's a catalytic propane unit that has fan powered exhaust overboard vent. It's wall mounted, and comes in a 3000 and a (approx) 5500 btu size. It's currently out of production, but a fellow named Arnie up in Washington state (near Olympia) services the existing models and can fabricate a virtually "new" one out of parts for about $439. It's thermostatically controlled, using 12 v power to heat the starting grid and power the thermostat. Try putting "Platinum Cat" into a search engine. Might just mount in the side of one of the dinette seats or under the helm seat in place of the ice box, on the CD-22, for instance. It would have to be placed where the radiant heat produced would have some where to radiate (nothing too close in front).
Requires an external tank, of course.

Meanwhile, keep thinking of the alternatives without succumbing to the black hole of despair!

Fun talking to you! Joe.
 
Sea Wolf Joe,

WOW! You have given an incredible accounting of the small heater universe. I feel like we either owe you money for the service call or you owe us college credit for learning heater 101, 2 & 3. I'm sure I can guess which you prefer :wink.

I found another small heater/fan called the Vector Coleman 12V Car Heater WW-2022F. This is a 200 watt halogen heater which appears to be a bit more efficient than the mini Roadpro 12V, but is still quite compact for mounting in a small cabin. Have you seen or heard any feedback on this one?

We will hook up someday, just remind me I owe you a :beer or :beer :beer for your contribution to this thread. Jon
 
Jon and Terrie-

No, I haven't heard anything about the Coleman electric heater model you mentioned, but I looked it up on the net and it looks like a good unit to me. Let me know how it works out! Glad to be of further help if you need anything. Joe.
 
I'll add what I can here...

The Wallas 2-burner unit can be mounted in any direction; however, keep in mind the lid has a blower in it and the warm air will always blow out the 'front' of the unit. If that's facing forward in the boat right at the back of a helm seat or such you're not going to get as much warm air into the rest of the boat as you would with the unit facing the passageway.

Any blue flame heater (propane in this case) that is not vented outside will add a lot of water vapor in the cabin; this includes the catalytic models.

Any heater relying on combustion is going to consume oxygen from the cabin space unless it's a driect vent unit...plan accordingly.

I've run our Wallas stoves on Ace hardware puchased kerosene (Kleen Strip I believe) for quite some time now and I've had no (zero, nada) issues with it. I've also run straight diesel fuel when I ran out of kerosene and again I had no trouble at all.

The Wallas does want a good power supply; it starts to act strangely when the batteries are down (even if they'll still start the motor). As soon as the power is switched to a fresh battery it works just fine. I suspect the main electronic board is not happy with even slightly low voltage.
 
I think Fred had the single Wallas job on Little Buddy. He never had any complaints. We'll be hearing from him soon.

B~C, maybe what you need to do is start charging a small fee for the smelt. You could have bought a four burner Wallas if I had paid you a buck a dozen for what you gave me last year. Of course, when the WA and OR boys find out you're selling them, via an anonymous tip from a disgruntled customer who can't catch no sturgeon, well, you might have to sell the stove and the boat to pay the fine.
 
The single burner on Little Buddy does a great job. Heats the entire cabin area plus camper back area to a comfortable temp. Even our famous senior nerd spent a couple of nights aboard and said it was fine. Of course, he made sure he had plenty of anti freeze in his system --- just in case. It does like a fully charged battery... but when we plugged in the dock power cord all was great.

Dusty
 
Dusty, thanks for the input....I don't know which way to go.....I'd like the extra counter space I'd get with the #800 but would sure hate to spend a bunch of fun bucks and be disappointed.

A couple of questions for folks savy in the ways of the Wallas;

1) would it be better to have the #800 and run it on high most of the time... or.. run the 2 burner on low or Med? I'm thinking a person would have less problems with sooting by running the smaller stove on high....am I nuts?

2) What setting do folks most often run their Wallas stove at?

thanks
 
Ken,

I've used both the 2 burner and single burner Wallas guys -- love them both. They are pretty spendy up front, but I think you get what you pay for. Both models seem very sensitive to battery voltage during the start cycle, so I usually start the main engine first and then fire up the Wallas. Once the cabin is warm I normally turn down (both models) to 1 or 2 (low setting). Even on the Tomcat in Olympia (brrr) Les slept quite comfortably up in the berth area. There are a whole bunch of good alternatives to the Wallas, but they usually require a lot of installation work, and my installer is up to his eyeballs in work!!

I certainly hope the report of the defective 800 is unusual, and there are a bunch of satisfied Wallas users in our pub that have had absolutely no trouble. Good clean fuel, adequate voltage to start -- works for me. Easly to install, and a definite plus to the value of your CD when you upgrade to Tyboo Mike level. Give Les a buzz, Ken, because he works with these all the time and will tell you true.

Dusty
 
Dusty- Good advice! The Wallas heaters have, generally speaking, a fine record.

B-C: If I read into what you're asking correctly, you're asking if the smaller unit might be a better choice than the larger one because it would be running on a higher setting more of the time.

Indeed one of the most common problems with the Wallas and diesel units, in general, is sooting up over time, with the consequent inoperability. Most of the discussion concerning this problem indicates the best preventive is to run the unit one High for at least 5 minutes or more before shutdown in order to clear it out.

The logical implication is that the smaller unit would therefore stay cleaner by working in the higher operating ranges. My guess is that's you're probably right. Unfortunately, this issue has been clouded over somewhat and possibly confused with the great debate over the proper fuel selection, which seems to be settled for the most part.

The problems with questions like this where we're trying to compare two or more units, is that most of the time, each person only has experience with one heater, or or one windlass, one radar, one autopilot, etc. We all have our own experiences which are very worthwhile to share, of course, and this is where Les can be of great service with the broader perspective of more varied experience.

While we're discussing this, I'll mention that one of the problems in selecting a proper heater is to size it properly, which is directly related to your question. Ideally, a perfect heater would be able to operate continuously anywhere from zero to it's maximum BTU rating, without developing performance problems in the process. Rather than have a unit that constantly cycles on and off, putting extra stress on all the electric components, the battery, sooting itself up, and generally being a distraction, the infinitely adjustable output would allow the heater to just match the heat loss and maintain a constant temperature.

To my knowledge, no such unit exists. The nature of the diesel wick, diesel spray, propane burner, and other combustion systems all have a miniumum operating threshold. Diesel heaters soot up when run at lower temperatures, and propane heaters have to maintain a minimum to run the thermocouple and assure complete combustion, and operate within an efficent heat transfer range. The best advice is to get one that's not oversized and one that will operate more naturally in its most efficient mode.

Experience with electric heaters would indicate that the typical small space heater which has high and low settings of approximately 1600 and 750 watts, which are roughly equivalent to 6000 and 3000 btu's, seems to be able to accomodate the CD-22 Cruiser for commonly encountered conditions with it's termostatic control. To put a heater in a CD-22-C that operates on, say, a high/low range of either 12,000 or 6,000 btu's would seem to be asking the heater to cycle itself on and of constantly in moderate conditions.

These numbers would have to be sized up and down for the different D-Dorys. The CD-25 has about 50% more interior volume than the CD-22 Cruiser, the CD-16 Cruiser about 40% less, and the CD-22-Angler, about 20% less. Surface area of the cabin is probably more directly related to heat loss than volume , but these figures are probably close enough to get by with.

So you're very wise to look carefully at these two units and make every comparison possible to match your needs more exactly and to get the one the will operate the most trouble free. Heater selection is a $500-$2000 choice (including all installation parts), and worth doing carefully.

Sorry go drone on, but this subject is a complicated one, and very interesting to me. HTH. Joe.
 
B~C":3l1lqhkx said:
....am I nuts?

I'm not sure. You might check this.

So, did you order the stove yet?? The first trip Kay and I made to Cathlamet, we got a half inch of snow in the boat overnight. We ran the heck out of the catastrophic propane heater, and it was raining inside the boat from the condensation. That was April 4 - just a few days before the Cathlamet CBGT planned for this year.

We haven't had the Wallas long enough to answer any questions. Every time I have had the thing on, it was cranked. Speaking of my stove, I wonder if Scan has started on it yet?
 
Got a call from Scan Marine today saying my Wallas stove was done. They replaced the blower fan with the upgrade, replaced a piece of copper fuel pipe, and serviced the thing for $220. The guy also said he did a couple of other things that were no charge, but I had trouble understanding him. I am hoping that they send a written work description when they ship it back to me tomorrow. Whatever they did, it better be good for that much money. Sheesh - a guy could buy a lot of propane canisters at Costco for two hundred bucks.

Tim - How about your stove?
 
Sea Wolf, I looked at the Force 10 stove, but in addition to an aversion to propane in a boat (I even use charcoal in my grill), the specs required a 30 or 36" flue as a minimum (apparently to maintain the draft). Since I carry my inflatable dingy on top, I could not have a flue pipe extending above the deck. Do you have 30" of flue? Did you consider the diesel/kerosene version? A friend with an older C-Dory had a Force 10 that worked very well for him, but he had an older Angler version with a seat behind the captain's seat and room for the longer flue.

I use the Toyoset stove/heater unit in my 22 Cruiser. I boat during the winter in Alaska which is a pretty serious test of a heater, and I have been happy with it. I would suggest that anyone traveling to a remote area in the serious cold (below freezing as a high temperature) where you will have a difficult time finding help, buy a 1 KW Yamaha generator. Weighs only 27 pounds and can save your bacon if you run down your batteries overnight with the heater on. I discovered batteries don't seem to hold as good a charge at 15 degrees, as in warmer weather, and was glad to have brought mine along.
 
Hi all, I agree with Nainu. I have the Wallas 100u stove/heater that I run for days on end. I also run 2 electric Canon downriggers. Even with 2 batteries(Group 24 starting,group 30 house) things can get run down. I got the Yamaha 1000 inverter generator to keep things energized. Additionally, it runs my Sharp "Half Pint" microwave oven which sits inside the icebox(door removed). It sure makes meals quick and easy. Pete
 
Nainu: No, I didn't consider the diesel version of the Cozy Cabin heater, primarily because I already had propane installed for the 3 burner Wedgewood cooking stove.

I know propane can be problematic, but I've been around it for years in RV's and feel pretty comfortable with it. Just have to be vigilant, and have the right detectors for the propane itself and the carbon monoxide hazard, which is a lot worse around gas engines than propane stoves.

I, too, have a 1000 watt generator for longer trips further away from the marinas that I use to back up the batteries. Your temperatures do a lot more to reduce the capacity and voltage of battrties than the more moderate ones down here in northern California. Ever notice how much fluoresent lights drop off in intensity at very low temperatures?

I can only get about 20 inches of flue without going above the cabin. I've never set the propane or carbon monoxide alarm off, but there is a very slight odor of burned gas (just like you'd have in your house with the kitchen stove on) that you can smell when it's been on high for awhile and you come in from outside. If you're in the cabin, you don't notice it. Since I run the heater on low after initial warm up, the odor goes away and doesn't return.

If I had to run the heater on high most of the time, I'd either extend the exhaust tube the extra 10 inches or so above the roof, or exchange the "witch's hat" exhaust cap to something else to relieve the back pressure caused by the restricted opening and forced momentary reversed flow that are inherent in the cap's design. Joe.
 
Sea wolf, you located yours in about the same place I had considered for the Force 10 in my boat. Where do you have the propane tank (in a bracket on the outside of the cabin bulkhead?). Inside worried me and keeping the tanks from rusting up on the outside seemed problematic. I could not figure out a means of making a compartment for the tank that could be vented overboard.

Adeline, I have a couple of Canons also. I just hate it when I am catching so many fish that I wear my batteries out running them up and down (grin). I have three deep cells in my boat, but when the silvers are biting down at 70 feet by the end of the day my batteries can get pretty well gone, especially with the heater, fishfinder, radio, gps, fan, cell phone, washdown pump and bilge pump in use. Not sure how many watts the alternators put out while trolling, but it is not much.
 
Like TyBoo Mike I got a call from Scan Marine that my Wallas was all fixed up, checked out, and ready to go. I was a little luckier since my bill was only $155. Since my fan was making a terrible screeching noise, fixing it most likely kept something else more serious from happening down the road. I have heard that this can lead to computer chips and the like blowing out which is a very expensive fix. Don't like to spend that much but if it takes care of the stove and makes Judy happy then they didn't charge what it's worth to this pleased skipper.
The stove really has worked well since we got the boat over a year ago and it just seemed like a tune-up for the Wallas was as important as the spring check out of the Hondas. Keeping ALL systems in proper working order is just part of boating in my mind. Maybe after I finish boat remodel work I'll be more willing to do just maintenance.
Anyway I do love the Wallas.

Tim
 
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