Gas problems - phase separation

D

DoryLvr

New member
Getting my spring tune up yesterday, the mechanic pulled a gas sample, which I have to admit did not look or smell like gas, but alcohol. I would suspect something funny except that I was standing right there when he pulled the sample, and then I smelled the tank itself. He said that what had happened was "phase separation," where the gas had absorbed as much moisture as it could, and then when saturated, the ethanol precipitated out of solution so I essentiall had alcohol on the bottom of the tank and low octane gas on the top. The only solution was to drain the tank, and oh yeah, take apart the carbs because the needle seats were damaged by the straight alcohol and two were now clogged.

Internet research seems to support this diagnosis, but it was running ok last weekend, a little rough right at the end as I was pulling up to the dock, which is what prompted the tune up, but nothing I was concerned about.

Anyone else experienced this?
 
Since picking up my new 25' Cruiser w/ the 2008 4-stroke 150hp Suzuki on it, I did some reading myself on phase separation (once again - since some years ago I had been buying gasoline from a marina in FL and they were selling bad mojo) - I cavitated a cylinder head on a 6 month old new EverRude 90hp (this was not due to ethanol/water/gasoline phase separation but reminded me I need to be careful where I buy my fuel and what type I put into outboard engines).

It's the alchohol which MORE readily absorbs the water (rather than the gasoline itself). The alcohol will absorb water much more readily than the gasoline. Outboards (all newer ones) are designed to accomodate alcohol (ethanol) up to 10%.

The problem (which is why I opt for not purchasing gasline with any alcohol or buying only name brands like Shell, AMOCO, BP, etc) in gasoline is this. From what I've heard (I've several friends in the petroleum industry business) and read is that: (1) after-market and off-market (non name brand in particular) gasoline stations have remarkably large and varying amounts of alcohol in the gasoline they sell. Some reports indicated gasoline stations with as much as 48% ethanol in their tanks; (2) I buy gasoline from gasoline stations (for my outboard and generally for my truck [diesel], as well) which display the last times their pumps were officially serviced and display their filter change dates.

Now, some of these gasoline stations probably aren't buying gasoline with 30%, or 48% ethanol - but, just like our boat gas tanks, unless that station is practicing good gasoline maintenance, those huge tanks suffer the exact same phase separation. So, I buy either non-ethanol-based gasolines, or only from reputable gasoline stations.

It might sound nuts, well, maybe it is. But, a little bit of asking about and looking about a reputable gasoline station you will find the official filter and pump documentation. It's important. If you know alcohol far more readily absorbs water than gasoline, and if you know under the pavement there exists five-six 5000-10,000 gallon tanks of 10% alchohol additive gasoline, well, do the math - those gasoline stations which change out their filters and maintain their stations and pumps also (in general) maintain good gasoline maintenance.

Also, I didn't look just now, but I think you can place a 10 micron filter between the gas tank and the engine.

I got the following somewhere (I copied and pasted, but I can't find the link now) - go figure. :cry

"Install a 10-micron water/fuel separating filter between the tank and the engine," Savant said. "Every outboard should have one."

Don't mix E-10 with "regular" gasoline. Don't let E-10 sit unused in a boat fuel tank for months. If you have to leave a boat fuel tank unused for any length of time, fill it as full as possible to limit the amount of moisture-laden air in the tank.
 
And, it really helps to put some fuel stabilizer in it when you fill it. Since 1993 I have never had a problem coming out of the long Alaskan winter and having them fire right up and run great when I remembered to put stabilizer in.
 
Speaking of Stabilizer, I found a couple of old (3 years or so) Stabil in the boat shop. How long does this stuff last? Is it still good...?? How do you stabilize Stabil? :shock:

Charlie
 
Captains Cat":2rqspkml said:
Speaking of Stabilizer, I found a couple of old (3 years or so) Stabil in the boat shop. How long does this stuff last? Is it still good...?? How do you stabilize Stabil? :shock:

Charlie
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Ditch it. After about a year it turns from its light red cranberry color to a very dark red. It also starts to crystalize some. When I was in the Army and new I was going anywhere for a year or more, I would just drain the boats tanks and hope for the best. Most of the time I came home to a mess.......
 
I use the red Stabil in all my engines (classic VW especially!) over the winter storage. I have never had a problem. Aren't you supposed to use the blue Stabil (for alcohol) in a marine application? That's what Matt advised I use when we went over the new 25 at Kitsap Marine.
 
Norm, (or anyone else!)

You seemed to say you are able to find non-ethanol gasoline. There seems to be none in my local area. Last summer I did find a marine station on Bethel Island (California Delta) that had something called ValvTect "marine" gas, which claimed not to suffer phase separation, but the fact sheet seemed vague on whether it could contain ethanol. My sense of the product is that it probably had stabilizer pre-added.

For now, I am going with the Star Tron enzyme treatment, but seems there is more to be learned on this issue.

Anybody have tips on finding gas with no ethanol?
 
I just found non ethanol gas in my area (Tacoma Washington) at Narrows Marina. I filled up last week for $2.39 gallon. They told me that they were the only sellers in the south sound, but I wonder about Zittles and Boston Harbor. Anyone know?

Robbi
 
localboy":1fu53sgo said:
I use the red Stabil in all my engines (classic VW especially!) over the winter storage. I have never had a problem. Aren't you supposed to use the blue Stabil (for alcohol) in a marine application? That's what Matt advised I use when we went over the new 25 at Kitsap Marine.
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Good point! I have lived for so long away from a real marine store that I forgot about that. But, then again, no worries here we don't do stupid things like spending our resources to make put perfectly good alcohol for our gas that doesn't have any alcohol in it anyway - we would much rather use hops, barely, or whatever and drink it! MMMMM Alaskan Amber :)
 
Ive had the same problems I use a yamaha 10 micron filter system and change it every 100 hrs or less as needed I also use Startron with every fill up I use 89 octane gas that I buy at the corner gas station

We do have a valvetect gas here in Naples for about $2.89 a gallon this is supposed to have no ethenal in it ?? I keep extra filters on board with a garbage can so I can empty the filter out

I think the best thing one can do is use your boat every week and then the problem seems to go away Thats my story and Im sticking to it "Honey I got to go and clean the gas out be back in a few hours "
 
Didn't someone mention here a year or two back that you could get away from the ethanol my buying aviation gas (provided you were on the trailer to do so)?

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
If you can afford $1 to $2+ more a gallon, plus it is "low lead", so it may be illegal to sell for non aircraft applications.

In the near future, they will be selling non leaded av gas, but I don't think that it is available yet.

Robbi
 
I use 100LL Avgas exclusively. Present local retail is $3.85 @ Gallon but I get a price break having once owned the facility. There are much higher QC standards for Av Fuels right down to daily testing at the pump (and retaining your daily samples for a period of time for liability reasons)

You can check prices in your area here:
http://airnav.com/fuel/local.html

In Massachusetts there is no restrictions on selling it for non aviation use such as race cars, motorcycles, etc.
 
Phil that's a riot you're burning 100LL in your C-Dory! When I was flying regularly I would see the race bikes and muscle cars come in for avgas but never a boat! Ha ha - you need a flame decal for the side of your vessel.
 
I now buy gas for C-Cakes at the local Safeway. They have told me their gas is non-ethanol and there are no stickers on the pumps indicating the presence of ethanol. Don't know about other locations but it might be worth a check. In the summer the boat is out often enough to make separation a non-issue.
 
Tess wrote:
Anybody have tips on finding gas with no ethanol?
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I looked around on some sites and noted the requirements for gasoline service stations. I'm not quoting here - just recalling what I recall w/o the hard numbers.
Ther basic requirements for gasoline service stations is they must sell E10 in large metropolitan areas where either Federal and/or State requirements have been mandated as they pertain to emssion control standards etc. So, I assume this does not apply to all areas of the country.
I live in the boonies here in Beaufort, NC (popluation ~3800 [could include all canines/felines, not sure]).
We have no large urban metropolitan emission control standards/restrictions here.
 
Phase separation- an unintended consequence of adding ethanal (along with melting fiberglass fuel tanks, but I digress).

Today's blended fuels go bad remarkable quick. StaBil's blue marine formula is said to reduce this tendency in the fuel. We are recommending it for year round use (I am using it in the remanufactured 383 that I put in my boat). There is a regular use quantity (1 oz per 10 gallons) and winterization level (1 oz per 5 gallons).

Storing the boat- there are proponents of store the tank full and store the tank empty. Our advice is to store the tank as empty as possible. we can deal with water from condensation with a fuel water separator, but once the fuel has phase separation, it must all be replaced (and they charge us almost as much per gallon to dispose of old fuel as you pay to buy new).

The ethanal lobby is pushing for a 15-20% content to be mandated by federal law. I will admit to being anti-ethanal, for various reasons, not the least of which is what we see it doing to engines, especially carburetors, which are very expensive for outboards.
 
Robbi sez [I just found non ethanol gas in my area (Tacoma Washington) at Narrows Marina. I filled up last week for $2.39 gallon. They told me that they were the only sellers in the south sound, but I wonder about Zittles and Boston Harbor. Anyone know?]

I just received confirmation that Boston Harbor does have Evil Ethanol "in their gas but not in their diesel". For the price and peace of mind I'll be happy to go to Narrows Marina.[/quote]
 
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