G4 HT chain for windlasses

F

ferret30

New member
I am trying to pick out chain and rode from Defender for our 22. We may eventually get a windlass so I want to make sure this will work. I'm planning on getting Acco G43 1/4" HT chain (50'), but right before I ordered I noticed that it said it was "short link". I couldn't find specific enough specs on the Lewmar site to tell if short link is what I'm looking for. I don't want to have to ship back 40 lbs of chain! Here's the chain:

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?pat ... 3&id=32561

Also, I'll be getting a pre-cut 200' 1/2" 3 strand line:

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?pat ... 9&id=37067

The galvanized shackles on Defender look sketchy so I might get some locally. They have some Crosby shackles, but I can't tell if an oversize (5/16") shackle will fit in the 1/4" chain links, so I might just get them locally.

Thanks!
 
The chain and windlass are matched so it is important to do as you are, think about it in advance; I know of at least one brat who bought a long piece of expensive chain only to discover it wouldn't work in his windlass. Our Lewmar V700 uses the 1/4" short link. The long link will not feed through the gypsy as far as I know. I've tried to use 5/16 shackles with little luck so you might find 1/4" is best. If you go on the Lewmar site I think you can see their chain recommendations.
 
ferret 30-

Most windlasses we use fit 1/4" GS 40 HT (High Test) short link galvanized chain.

The GS 43 and GS 40 appear to be fairly similar in strength and manufacture with the GS 40 having slightly smaller links, though they both are usually pretty much interchangeable.

"Gr 40
High Test
Strength levels are the same as Gr 43 but the dimensions of the chain links are smaller using ISO standards. Primarily used for boat windlasses, this grade has become a standard for that industry. The Grade 40 designation was exclusively used by ACCO Chain until 2005 to designate their High Test grade chain. They now use "43" in keeping with the rest of the industry. The chain is hallmarked "G4" on every link. Not for overhead lifting."

"
Gr 43
High Test
This is a higher strength chain used for years in the trucking industry for tie downs that meet DOT specifications. Made from a higher carbon steel, its strength surpasses proof coil working load limits, size for size, by a factor of 2 to 1. Hallmarked every 1 to 3 feet with manufacturer's symbol and grade marking: 4, 40, 43 or 400. Not for overhead lifting."

Reference source: Chain Grading


Here's the Acco/Peerless pdf catalogue (see page 16):

http://www.peerlesschain.com/downloads/ ... df#page=16


Good Luck!

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Thanks guys, I'll place the order tomorrow.

I have a 200' 1/2" 3 strand rope that came with out boat that has a thimble on one end, and unfortunately a bad looking fray about 80' from one end. I'm thinking of cutting this one at the fray so I don't ever accidentally use it. Also, I'm going to use the last 8' or so (including the thimble) and turn it into a snubber to attach the new line to the bow eye at anchor. And I'll use another piece to practice back splicing to a chain!

Fun stuff!
 
My apology for not answering your question on the "thisaway" thread. What you are doing should work fine. Some folks find that the plait lines work better in the windlass--but I have always used 3 strand. As I recollect you can use 1/2" or 7/16" in the Lewmar. Joe has covered the chain well--stamped G 4 works well. (1/4"). I will have to check, but I believe that I have always used a 5/16 shackle. However, I agree, that many of the current shackles from China can be sketchy. Hight test shackles are available. I would be cautions about SS especially from China--since I have seen some bad castings. Plus I prefer not to mix galvanized and SS. If you go with 1/4" shackle--make sure it is high test.

My boat has large fender washers, which will be adequate for "normal" anchoring. Since I will have the boat out of the water on a lift or trailer in storm conditions (most of the time hopefully), I will stick with the factory back up. In the past I have used aluminum plate under the deck, especially under a windlass and cleat together.

A lot depends on the water where you anchor. With a windlass the 50 feet of chain is good for the C dory. In larger boats I used 200 feet of chain, with up to 400 feet of rode or more in the PNW where anchorage depths are up to 100 feet. In the lakes and ICW where we are currently boating, a total of 150 feet is plenty. I'll probably have a couple of rodes. The primary will be 1/2 " line of 150 feet and only 8 feet of chain, because of no windlass.

I will also carry a back up rode of another 200 feet and 50 feet of chain. The stern line will be smaller--3/8" which is plenty strong, and easier to stow, but a bit harder on the hands if you have to pull it in by hand. Stern anchor is a 7# Fortress, and Charlie gave me back the large fortress--so it will sit in pieces under the dinette (as I recollect it is a FX 37).

You had also asked about the color of the stripes--they are black with gold accent pin stripe tape. We are raising the water line by at least an inch--because of waterway "smile" with bottom paint, and will probably put a new gold stripe on.
 
Thanks for the response Bob!

I can't wait to get all my ducks in a row so we can start doing trips in the Puget Sound in the spring. We've just been going slow with the boat so far, staying in Lake Washington and Lake Union but it should be a lot of fun to go to the CBGTs next year.

I just have to finish installing the anchor roller now. I had to make some time to do the epoxy work this week since I figured it was going to be one of the last clear 50+ degree days of the year. I ended up using a hammer to flatten the bottom of the pivoting anchor roller I had so it would sit flat on the bow (it had been bent a bit at the front lip by the pivoting part pushing down on it). I've got 2" OD 1/8" thick stainless washers for backing the roller bolts, and since I'm planning on using a snubber at anchor, the roller shouldn't have too big of forces on it.

The last big step is finding and installing a kicker!

Bob, I'm looking forward to pictures of your new boat and the projects you're doing on it!
 
Let me make one more comment, which I thought of, but didn't put down last night. I generally make the snubbers lighter than the anchor rode. For example for the C Dory I would consider 3/8" line. If not a lighter line, then a rubber snubber to take the load.

Also when I put the Starboard blocks on the transom, I will drill out new holes (based holes drilled in the starboard block)--and then epoxy fill those oversized and very slightly under cut holes (depending on how thick the glass there is)
 
The G4 chain is also available at West Marine. They have specials all year round with rebates on purchases of $100 increments, might be worth checking.
 
When you mention using 3/8" for the snubber line, do you mean for securing the anchor when stowed, or for attaching the rode to the bow eye when anchored? Or both?

I haven't figured out what to use for the anchor stowing snubber yet, a bungee or a line with some sort of chain hook at one end and a loop for the bow cleat at the other. I want to figure that one out soon since an accidental deployment just about anywhere would be pretty awful.

I'll have to take a look at our transom next year too. The transducer is mounted directly to the boat below the water line, and there are a few cable guide loops going up the transom. I'd prefer that these holes (especially the underwater ones) are very well sealed, and I don't think the guides are even that necessary.

Will your Starboard completely cover the old holes you are filling in? Or are you adding pigment to the epoxy to make it more UV stable?

Sorry for the endless string of questions, and I really appreciate all the information!
 
Dora~Jean":2mqiy86u said:
The G4 chain is also available at West Marine. They have specials all year round with rebates on purchases of $100 increments, might be worth checking.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response! I was thinking of buying there since it would be easier to pick up locally, but they don't have Acco 1/4" G4 HT, they only have a WestMarine brand (could be the same) and it's $0.42/ft more, so it works out to be the same when comparing the two. Also, WM's site isn't really specific about what exactly the chain is (i.e. short or long link, dimensions, etc.).

The chain at Defender is Acco G43 1/4" HT for $2.99/ft, so I think I'll get it shipped but I'll feel sorry for the delivery guy!
 
The 3/8" snubber is for at anchor. I use a rolling hitch around the anchor rode with the 3/8" line which then is secured to a bow cleat. The snubber should be about 20' long, to allow stretch.

I have used the rubber straps, and short lines for holding the anchor when trailering or running. The current boat has a hayfield type of lever to tension the chain and hold the anchor in place. I do tie off the anchor and not depend on the winch.
 
As far as chain brand is concerned, when I did the research for the chain post, I found out that Accco Chain was bought out by Peerless Chain a few years ago, so the chain at West Marine is probably the same as that at Defender anyway. One could always check the name/information/etc. on the side of the barrel.

It's my understanding that most windlasses have some moderate size tolerance in the size of chain they will accept. When you get ready to buy a windlass, take or send a short sample of whatever chain you do wind up buying to the windlass supplier and see if it fits.

Most windlass manufacturers have very through size charts for chain and everything else about their windlasses, including dimensions, electrical needs, performance charts, footprints, etc. Many will have two or more different gypsies for different size chains that will fit on a particular windlass. (European chain standards are different than American/English measurement standards, hence require different gypsies.)

And Bob's right, some of those 5" longer extensions are just 5 more inches added onto the 20" original part. I don't however, think this is true with the vertical driveshaft, as it would wobble if it weren't solid.

Keep in touch!

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
When buying nylon line, I like to know who made it. All 3 strand rope is not equal, and does not "lay" the same, as well as wear and age as well. I like to use New England Rope or Sampson line.

As for the question about UV exposure for the small screw holes--I would not worry about it. Even if it were exposed the small holes are not an issue--however in this case, there would be bottom paint. The Starboard block will more than cover the area where the old screw holes were drilled. It will also be painted by bottom paint.
 
20dauntless":2ofmfdga said:
Has anyone used this company for an anchor rode?

(Omitted url)

I need to order a new rode and their prices seem good.

No, I haven't used them, but $1.84/ft is really good. Call them and find out who makes the chain. It must conform to the standards, also.

I agree strongly with Bob about the New England and Samson brand 3 strand rope. Very high quality. Some ropes are too stiff or too soft, and won't go down the rode opening right, or lay right, or will hockle up or worse.
And does anyone know if I can fit 300 ft of 1/2" 8 plait and 50 ft of 1/4" G4 chain in the anchor locker of a 22?

Yes, but that's about the maximum that will fit! You can always build a hinged/folding extension to the back wall of the rode locker to help contain it, too.
Click to expand...

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
I'd just like to point out that I'm at work today (self imposed) and I'd rather be installing my anchor roller and fixing my bilge pump.

Also, I read some horror stories about some of you guys launching without a drain plug in. That could be a huge mess, and although I've been keeping my drain plug on my boat keychain as a reminder when it's not installed, I decided to go one step further. My boat came with a few extra plugs so I used a very small zip tie to hang another spare plug in the bilge area. That way if the boat starts taking on water at the launch I would have a decent chance of getting it in.

PS - Can you tell I'm focused on work?
 
ferret30,
This summer I changed out the Lewmar V600 windlass for a V700, though not by choice. A V700 is the most common anchor windlass on a C-Dory, other than the human back. The V700 is a slightly larger unit than the V600, redesigned and now made in Thailand. I now can speak with some authority as to the type of line it will take.

The Lewmar catalog says that the V700 is designed for medium lay 3 strand or plaited line (1/2" dia.) The new gypsy would not grip the old 3 strand line we've been using for 6 years unless I tailed it. I can only assume that it was because the line was too stiff to be gripped by the gypsy being salt soaked etc. What I did was buy some Samson 6 plait line, 200 ft, from Redden Marine in Bellingham. Great price and Sampson is made in Washington. Soak before using.

Comparing the 700 gypsy with the V600, one can see that the V600 has slightly more depth and gripping surface for the rope. The old 1/4" HS chain worked great.

By the way Sea Wolf, what kind of chain does one use for overhead lifting? All the links, bolt eyes, etc. that I buy are now marked "not for overhead lifting." So what is used? Only plain grade 80/100?

Boris
 
Those prices at Redden are great, but unfortunately I've already placed the order with Defender on Friday. Oh well, thanks for the tip!
 
journey on":3lnqvr32 said:
By the way Sea Wolf, what kind of chain does one use for overhead lifting? All the links, bolt eyes, etc. that I buy are now marked "not for overhead lifting." So what is used? Only plain grade 80/100?

Boris
Click to expand...

Boris-

If you look at the source from Peerless Chain I quoted above, only the 80 and 100 grades are used overhead, though I suspect there are more high-tech/high grade types that will also work, though not mentioned in their catalogue. You might ask NASA, for instance, what they use (?). I've used Marine Grade shackles and the like for years in overhead sailing applications without significant failures, as I'm sure you have.

I suspect that the grade 80 and above recommendations are based on at least five, probably more, factors:

1. The Conservative Engineering Approach, meaning those responsible for designing and determining the standards feel it is necessary to build in large safety margins in their products. An metallurgical engineering friend of mine who was responsible for building the missile launch tubes used in nuclear submarines never felt good about building anything without a 4X to 10X or larger margin of safety in the loading/strength/failure/etc. departments, even if it was for a homemade doghouse.

2. The Avoid As Much Liability As You Can Legal Position, advocated by company lawyers and executives, who would rather keep as much company money for their compensation packages, rather than see it go up in smoke in lawsuits brought on by distraught customers.

3. The Old Profit Motive, which encourages the manufacturer to recommend the more expensive product to the customer.

4. Any Historical Perspective, which would be present if there were some history of persons being injured by using the lower grade products.

5. And Perhaps Some Genuine Concern for the Welfare of the Customer, which would favor recommendation of the product(s) with the higher margin of safety.

Those are my guesses, and at 2¢ each, worth a whole dime in today's economy, which hasn't seen much of anything sell for 10¢ or less since I don't even remember……….!

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Darn it! I got my big 60lb shipment from Defender yesterday, with 50' of 1/4" G43 HT, 200' of 1/2" 3 strand line, and 2 5/16" Crosby shackles. The line and chain are fine, but the shackles have lobes (made that one up) too big to fit through the last link on the chain! So the only way I can attach the chain to the anchor with this shackle is like this:

shackle.jpg


This seems like it would put a lot of stress on the shackle, and prematurely wear through the galvanizing on the anchor since the curved shackle is contacting the anchor at two sharp points (the edges of the hole through the anchor). It seems like it would be better for the shackle and anchor if the pin of the shackle went through the anchor hole -- more contact / less wear.

I thought 5/16" would work fine, but maybe these Crosby ones are different. That was the only non-import galv shackle I could find on Defender.
 
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