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Full or Empty - Winterization
- Thread starter redman
- Start date
smittypaddler
New member
I store with mostly empty tanks, but for a different reason. I tow my 22 to Florida from Wisconsin each winter and don't want to drag the extra weight of 40 gallons of gas in the boat.
I agree with Da Nag about storage conditions. I must be the only person who has no plan. I store my boat for the winter with whatever fuel is in the tanks and don't worry about it. The winter conditions in Spokane are quite variable but the humidity is generally quite low summer and winter. I always use fuel stabilizer and run the engines dry and drain the carbs. I have done this with previous boats and with my C-Dory and have never had a fuel related issue. My opinion is that the volume of air in our small tanks whether 1/4 full or totally full is not enough to make much difference. Since the tanks are vented to the outside air I would guess that the fuel surface area is the only important issue and that changes very little with how much fuel is in the tank.
Captains Cat
New member
Ken, I think that moisture can condense on the sides of the tank too. The emptier a tank is, the more of the sides of the tank are exposed, hence more condensation. That having been said, I try to fill my tanks, but don't fret about it much. The only problem I've ever had was getting a shot of water WITH the fuel, not condensation.
Charlie
Charlie
Wow, this thread just happened at the right time.
We returned south recently to find our boat in a world of hurt because nobody ever told us that you have to "SUMMERIZE" your boat.
We had followed northern Minnesota protocol and added a rich dose of Sea Foam to the gas, covered her up with a big blue tarp, staked her to the ground for hurricane wind protection, and basically walked away for the summer.
Well now, here is what happened (and we are still working on a complete recovery). South Alabama had a hell hot summer this year. The blue tarp suffered sun rot so that about a week before we returned the cabin was uncovered. The entire boat that has white gel coat was covered with black mildew. After a half day of pressure washing the mildew was history, she looked real good again. BUT, when we went for our first ride.............neither engine would start or even fire.
After several days of messin with the carbs and filter, I searched the site for help. C-Weed had posted back in 2008 about some hooch made by Berryman products B12 Chemtool. That and some premium gas, has we think right now, saved us from complete carb overhauls. Thank you C-Weed. Damn, this is such a great site.
Bottom line: Heat degrades ethanol gas way faster than cold.
We will never leave any gas in the carbs, lines, or filter, again for the summer. AND, I am going to check into Marc's suggestion of switching to PRI-G post haste. Thank you Marc. Damn, this is such a great site.
Don't know how many snowbirds leave their boats in the south for the summer, but we have learned a whole lot very recently and I hope we can spare a brat or two from sharing the same bad experience.
Dan
We returned south recently to find our boat in a world of hurt because nobody ever told us that you have to "SUMMERIZE" your boat.
We had followed northern Minnesota protocol and added a rich dose of Sea Foam to the gas, covered her up with a big blue tarp, staked her to the ground for hurricane wind protection, and basically walked away for the summer.
Well now, here is what happened (and we are still working on a complete recovery). South Alabama had a hell hot summer this year. The blue tarp suffered sun rot so that about a week before we returned the cabin was uncovered. The entire boat that has white gel coat was covered with black mildew. After a half day of pressure washing the mildew was history, she looked real good again. BUT, when we went for our first ride.............neither engine would start or even fire.
After several days of messin with the carbs and filter, I searched the site for help. C-Weed had posted back in 2008 about some hooch made by Berryman products B12 Chemtool. That and some premium gas, has we think right now, saved us from complete carb overhauls. Thank you C-Weed. Damn, this is such a great site.
Bottom line: Heat degrades ethanol gas way faster than cold.
We will never leave any gas in the carbs, lines, or filter, again for the summer. AND, I am going to check into Marc's suggestion of switching to PRI-G post haste. Thank you Marc. Damn, this is such a great site.
Don't know how many snowbirds leave their boats in the south for the summer, but we have learned a whole lot very recently and I hope we can spare a brat or two from sharing the same bad experience.
Dan
O.K.,
We have the engines running now, barely. They will idle long enough to shift into gear and then will top out at only 4,000 rpm. Me thinks the high speed jets are still plugged up. There is one oz. per gallon of Berrymans in the gas (premium). Is there any chance that with a little time and daily running they will open up? Do any of you have any experience with unplugging high speed jets on Honda carbs without total disassembly? I have some good spray carb cleaner with the little spray tube. Trying to get out of this mess without a lot of cash outlay.
Dan
We have the engines running now, barely. They will idle long enough to shift into gear and then will top out at only 4,000 rpm. Me thinks the high speed jets are still plugged up. There is one oz. per gallon of Berrymans in the gas (premium). Is there any chance that with a little time and daily running they will open up? Do any of you have any experience with unplugging high speed jets on Honda carbs without total disassembly? I have some good spray carb cleaner with the little spray tube. Trying to get out of this mess without a lot of cash outlay.
Dan
Having spent hours of stress and pain trying to start various gas engine tools, gensets, chippers, and other neglected farm tools, I put 1 oz per 5 gallons of Sta-Bil in everything that takes gas except my main driver.
I also put Heet in them all at one bottle per 20 gallons. With a 450 milliamp float charger on the unused batteries, I've been able to start anything at any time for many years now.
About 10 years ago, we had a horrendous ice storm with trees down, electricity off and single digit temperatures. The stress and pain of trying to get the chainsaws, gensets, etc., going just about put me in my grave.
The last several ice storms, everything started, even the large Miller welder/generator (yes, I keep StaBil and Heet in it too!)
I do top off the tanks each Fall since I run the TomCat tanks half full most of the Summer time. I use the boat all year 'round, in ice and snow, and it has not even coughed nor sputtered for over 3 years now.
John
I also put Heet in them all at one bottle per 20 gallons. With a 450 milliamp float charger on the unused batteries, I've been able to start anything at any time for many years now.
About 10 years ago, we had a horrendous ice storm with trees down, electricity off and single digit temperatures. The stress and pain of trying to get the chainsaws, gensets, etc., going just about put me in my grave.
The last several ice storms, everything started, even the large Miller welder/generator (yes, I keep StaBil and Heet in it too!)
I do top off the tanks each Fall since I run the TomCat tanks half full most of the Summer time. I use the boat all year 'round, in ice and snow, and it has not even coughed nor sputtered for over 3 years now.
John
Jeff Brigner
New member
When storing my boat in Alabama summers I have had problems with wasp building mud nests inside the engine where they can get sucked into the air intake. Just another thing to check for. You wouldn't believe where they will nest. :roll:
The current issue of BoatUS "Seaworthy Magazine" has a section about Ethanol:
http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/october/
On the right side of the page click on the link: "More Information on Gasoline with Ethanol"
The section includes recommendations for empty vs. full for tanks that are holding E-10. Interesting articles. They voted for tanks full . . .
http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/october/
On the right side of the page click on the link: "More Information on Gasoline with Ethanol"
The section includes recommendations for empty vs. full for tanks that are holding E-10. Interesting articles. They voted for tanks full . . .
Fishhawk":1h5k1h62 said:O.K.,
There is one oz. per gallon of Berrymans in the gas (premium). Is there any chance that with a little time and daily running they will open up?
Dan
There is a chance. The idle and low speed circuts on one of my motors were cured by Chevron Techron additive. I used Techron additive, not their dilluted fuel system cleaner with Techron.
Yellowstone
New member
Perhaps my comments may be irrelevant to most readers, but water introduced into the fuel may have little to do with whether tanks are stored full or empty during the off season. I have done it both ways and have found no water in my filter systems. My Honda 90 over five years showed no water in the fuel, boating on the pacific and in the gulf of Mexico, My current motor is a 2006 Mercury EFI 115 (actually a Yahama), and a small visible filter is near the squeeze bulb and another small filter sits inside the cowling in the line feeding the EFI system. Frequent checks show no signs of water after running over 500 gallons of gas through the motor. I would wager contaminated fuel from vendors rather than fuel tank "sweating"is the problem. John
Matt Gurnsey
New member
Be very careful with the use of Heet and other fuel driers. They contain alcohol to absorb the water and help it mix with the gas. That's what makes them effective, alchohol's ability to attract water.
Of course, now that there is alchohol in the fuel, the fuel is absorbing more water until it is saturated, causing the alchohol/water mixture to seperate from the gasoline.
Iso Propyle based fuel driers may do a better job of kjeeping the fuel and water mixed.
Premium fuel is worse than regular fuel, in that it degrades more quickly than regular, as it is less stable to begin with. Save the money and just run regular, unless the engine manufacturer recomends it.
Of course, now that there is alchohol in the fuel, the fuel is absorbing more water until it is saturated, causing the alchohol/water mixture to seperate from the gasoline.
Iso Propyle based fuel driers may do a better job of kjeeping the fuel and water mixed.
Premium fuel is worse than regular fuel, in that it degrades more quickly than regular, as it is less stable to begin with. Save the money and just run regular, unless the engine manufacturer recomends it.
Matt,
Thanks for the info. Perhaps there are differing factors in differing locations.
My info is from ppl in the business for over 70 years around the Grand Lake, OK area. Of course there are differing opinions everywhere, but here seems to be the summary for much of the 1450 mile coastline of Grand Lake, Ok:
- Heet IS Isopropyl Alcohol
- 90 percent advise 91 octane fuel. In fact, it is difficult to find Regular gasoline at the local marinas, even if you wanted it.
- Many boats here operate all year 'round. Many are sitting in the water, unsued, over the winter.
- I have not seen any fuel dock on the lake providing fuel with alcohol in it.
I know my Honda owner's book recommends 87 octane, but it is rarely available down here.
There are many refineries in Oklahoma, so maybe that is why the fuel situation is as it is.
When I first used my boat on Grand Lake, during rough water spot in a storm, while going under a bridge, my Port engine lost fuel and I was able to navigate through the waves and bridge with the Starboard engine.
I found water in the fuel filters which apparently had become stirred up by the rough water.
Since using the Heet and still running all year, I have found no water in the fuel filters.
So, maybe it was bad fuel? Maybe condensation? Maybe the Heet helps?
I am sticking with my regimen since everything has remained clean since beginning it.
I can see how one might choose other options depending upon his/her unique situation.
John
Thanks for the info. Perhaps there are differing factors in differing locations.
My info is from ppl in the business for over 70 years around the Grand Lake, OK area. Of course there are differing opinions everywhere, but here seems to be the summary for much of the 1450 mile coastline of Grand Lake, Ok:
- Heet IS Isopropyl Alcohol
- 90 percent advise 91 octane fuel. In fact, it is difficult to find Regular gasoline at the local marinas, even if you wanted it.
- Many boats here operate all year 'round. Many are sitting in the water, unsued, over the winter.
- I have not seen any fuel dock on the lake providing fuel with alcohol in it.
I know my Honda owner's book recommends 87 octane, but it is rarely available down here.
There are many refineries in Oklahoma, so maybe that is why the fuel situation is as it is.
When I first used my boat on Grand Lake, during rough water spot in a storm, while going under a bridge, my Port engine lost fuel and I was able to navigate through the waves and bridge with the Starboard engine.
I found water in the fuel filters which apparently had become stirred up by the rough water.
Since using the Heet and still running all year, I have found no water in the fuel filters.
So, maybe it was bad fuel? Maybe condensation? Maybe the Heet helps?
I am sticking with my regimen since everything has remained clean since beginning it.
I can see how one might choose other options depending upon his/her unique situation.
John
Matt Gurnsey
New member
Heet has two formulas- the yellow bottle is Methonal, the red is Isopropyle. The red (Iso-Heet) is certainly much better than the yellow.
Regional differences also come into play as you mention, so while there are some basic guidelines, techs in a local area can give good insight as to what works best (although with ethanol, there may be different approaches to what to do, we all agree it's bad stuff).
Regional differences also come into play as you mention, so while there are some basic guidelines, techs in a local area can give good insight as to what works best (although with ethanol, there may be different approaches to what to do, we all agree it's bad stuff).
Yellowstone
New member
Matt - I'm no chemist, believe me. But when water and propene are combined, the result is isopropyl alcohol, commonly called rubbing alcohol which comes in 70% and 99% varieties. So introducing ISO into a fuel tank is putting some water into it. I have no way of knowing the chemical reactions which take place with gasoline when isopropyl alcohol is introduced. My simple mind says avoid using anything with water in it in my fuel tanks. We must have a chemist in our group who can tell us the realty of using ISO. John
Matt Gurnsey
New member
I'm not a chemist either, and while I did work in the automotive chemical field, it's been a few years, and the formulation for gasoline has changed a bit since then.
Brent's correct, the alchohol maintains the water in suspension, which Isopropyl Alchohol does better than Methyl Alchohol. Both of which are probably better at maintaining suspension than Ethyl Alchohol.
It's what happens when the alchohol reaches a saturation point with the water.
Keep in mind that the teatment for a 15 gallon fuel tank is one of the 12 oz bottles, or a 80 to 1 mixture. E10 gas is a 10 to 1 mixture.
It's been awhile since I've dealt with automotive chemicals, but I seem to recall that a 12 oz bottle of Isopropyl fuel drier will treat up to 8 or so ounces of water in the fuel. Even if we assume that it is one to one, that means that bottle of Iso-Heet (for example) is designed to handle 12 ounces of water (1 1/2 cups).
I don't know how much water it takes to overwhelm the Ethonal's ability to absorb water, but it seems to take very little water to cause phase seperation. And in the 15 gallon tank example above there are 96 ounces (1.5 gallons) of alchohol. It sure doesn't seem to take much to cause phase seperation.
I do know that if you put enough water into fuel to make Methyl Alchohol seperate from the fuel, that isopropyl alchohol could resuspend the water / methonal mixture back in the gas. But that was in limited quantities in test tube experiments. Does Isopropyl help keep ethonal in suspension? I don't know.
I wish we could still get E0 gas here in our area. Rumor is that Poulsbo and Brownsville have E0 gas, but that could have changed.
Brent's correct, the alchohol maintains the water in suspension, which Isopropyl Alchohol does better than Methyl Alchohol. Both of which are probably better at maintaining suspension than Ethyl Alchohol.
It's what happens when the alchohol reaches a saturation point with the water.
Keep in mind that the teatment for a 15 gallon fuel tank is one of the 12 oz bottles, or a 80 to 1 mixture. E10 gas is a 10 to 1 mixture.
It's been awhile since I've dealt with automotive chemicals, but I seem to recall that a 12 oz bottle of Isopropyl fuel drier will treat up to 8 or so ounces of water in the fuel. Even if we assume that it is one to one, that means that bottle of Iso-Heet (for example) is designed to handle 12 ounces of water (1 1/2 cups).
I don't know how much water it takes to overwhelm the Ethonal's ability to absorb water, but it seems to take very little water to cause phase seperation. And in the 15 gallon tank example above there are 96 ounces (1.5 gallons) of alchohol. It sure doesn't seem to take much to cause phase seperation.
I do know that if you put enough water into fuel to make Methyl Alchohol seperate from the fuel, that isopropyl alchohol could resuspend the water / methonal mixture back in the gas. But that was in limited quantities in test tube experiments. Does Isopropyl help keep ethonal in suspension? I don't know.
I wish we could still get E0 gas here in our area. Rumor is that Poulsbo and Brownsville have E0 gas, but that could have changed.
Captains Cat
New member
Guess we're just lucky here. We can get E0 at several local gas stations (at least 3 I know of) and several local marinas (at least 2). Lots of trailerable boats here and most folks I know go out of their way to buy the E0 stuff. That's not to say you can't get a shot of water from anyone, that's the only problem I think I've had in the past, bad gas, not the methanol phase separation problem...
I still treat with Blue Stabil and Startron every time I buy gas...
Charlie
I still treat with Blue Stabil and Startron every time I buy gas...
Charlie
Charlie, Yes you are lucky for now, but don't think that luck is going to hold.
Just last summer there was plenty of places to go for EO though I generally chose Chevron due to personal preference. Now I can't find a single one around here or on my way back from Lake Powell, so this is the first year its going into storage full of E10 and blue stabil.
Have never had problems in the past. Motors always have started instantly following reconnecting and pressurizing motor fuel inlet. Always stored full with red stabil, disconnected fuel inlet, ran motors till they quit and then drained each carb.
During the boating season this year added blue stabil at every fueling and twice added the recommended amount of Techron to fuel.
Hard to fathom the thinking that has got us into this mess. E10 and now maybe E15, government forced and subsidized additives that we must add even more very expensive additives to prevent them from doing damage to the motors. Would make my day to stuff just one of the individuals responsible for this continuing mess into the Mokai and make just one more rounding of Cape Ommaney with them in tow.
Jay
Just last summer there was plenty of places to go for EO though I generally chose Chevron due to personal preference. Now I can't find a single one around here or on my way back from Lake Powell, so this is the first year its going into storage full of E10 and blue stabil.
Have never had problems in the past. Motors always have started instantly following reconnecting and pressurizing motor fuel inlet. Always stored full with red stabil, disconnected fuel inlet, ran motors till they quit and then drained each carb.
During the boating season this year added blue stabil at every fueling and twice added the recommended amount of Techron to fuel.
Hard to fathom the thinking that has got us into this mess. E10 and now maybe E15, government forced and subsidized additives that we must add even more very expensive additives to prevent them from doing damage to the motors. Would make my day to stuff just one of the individuals responsible for this continuing mess into the Mokai and make just one more rounding of Cape Ommaney with them in tow.
Jay