Engines stalling?

Larry- Don't know about carbureted Hondas, but I'm guessing electronically fuel injected motors like the Suzuki and Yamaha (and bigger Hondas) won't inject fuel w/o enough electricity to operate the injector nozzle solenoids.

Maybe a can of ether (starting fluid) could be used to prime the intake manifold and bypass the injectors to get things fired up, but would the computer be dead until a minimum voltage was achieved, and would you have any spark at the plugs before that?

All the more reason to carry a booster / starer pack on board just in case! (cheap insurance)

Joe.
 
Maybe a can of ether (starting fluid) could be used to prime the intake manifold and bypass the injectors to get things fired up
Click to expand...
Joe – I have never found myself disagreeing with you until now. In my opinion, ether should never be used in an outboard engine. It is too explosive and can blow a hole in the piston or bend a rod in light duty engines. I use it for our large diesel engines in dozers and tractors during extremely cold weather. Even then, I do not spray when I am cranking the engine. Too many people just grab the can of ether, hit the starter and spray. You reduce the life of a heavy-duty diesel engine, every time you do it. You may kill that little outboard. Raw ether going into the combustion chamber is an engine killer. When you use ether, you should spray a short burst into the air intake for your air filter, then wait for several seconds, then hit the starter.
 
Dave-

Good points. I really wasn't suggesting someone use ether indescriminately, but probably being a little careless with words.

I have used it to start both cars and outboards before, all without apparent damage, at least so far. I have, however, never used it in a diesel engine, as I've never owned one.

I usually just prime it a bit, either at the intake body of the manifold, or at the intake of the air cleaner, depending on the state of disassembly.

"Maybe a can of ether (starting fluid) could be used to prime the intake manifold and bypass the injectors to get things fired up...." should read

"Maybe a can of ether (starting fluid) could be used to supply fuel to the air cleaner and prime the fuel system to start the engine firing.........."

In fact, I'm don't think one could get the ether spray any closer than the air cleaner without disassembling part of the instake system on most modern outboards with their silencing and air filtering systems.

You make a good point, though, I've never really given all that much consideration to the relative combustivity and energy released between ether and gas. I'll have to look up their comparative numbers in the Handbok of Chemistry and Physics. Joe.
 
Great points Dave. I'll also add that when I was working in the automotive mechanics field that of the 10 car fires I worked on fixing for customers 8 of them were due to someone using starting fluid.... BE VERY CAREFUL! :)
 
Now that we've agreed on the ether usage, how about the other question and a "new" one:

1. Will an electronically fuel injected motor start with a manual rope in an emergency (maybe should read "What's the minimum voltage necessary, if any, for a fuel injected motor to be started manually?"

and

How big an engine can actually be started manually?

I'll start soff the last one by saying I've manually started an Evinrude 90 2-stroke, and it wasn't all that bad a pull (!)

Joe
 
Oh, just remembered:

And Dave (Oldgrowth), do you think I wcould start those three 1450 HP diesels on the "Stealth Boat" on the other thread with just one can of ether?

Just joking, sorry for the funny stuff.

Joe.
 
1. Will an electronically fuel injected motor start with a manual rope in an emergency (maybe should read "What's the minimum voltage necessary, if any, for a fuel injected motor to be started manually?"

and

How big an engine can actually be started manually?

Joe[/quote]

An Evinrude Etec can be started by rope... And, as big of engine as a guy can pull over...

A simple explanation of how they do this: The stator charges in series at low speeds. this creates higher voltage faster. This charges a capacitor that releases the stored voltage on the second pull. both the ignition and injectors are powered and the engine starts on the second pull.

Being from the Midwest, I didn't believe it. So as a test, I made the shop guys rope over a 90. Indeed, it started on the second pull...

Somebody out there is gonna say it's science... I prefer to call it magic! :P

Craig
 
Joe,

I am not a Honda dealer, so I can't answer about Honda...

My experience with Suzy built Johnsons, and with Mercury, The ECM is powered by battery voltage. The ECM will not operate at less than 9 or 9.5 volts.(something in that range)

Therefore, you would have no spark and no injection at that voltage level.
On the other hand, if you had say... 10 volts and you crank the engine it may not start due to voltage drop from powering the starter. BUT... If you had 10 volts and could rope it over... It just might get you in, in a pinch.

Craig
 
I have been watching this thread and have another thought... ( Read: Beggining of the sermon! )

There is simply no substitute for good maintenance! AND... there is only one way to check a battery connection. Here is how we do it.

Remove the battery cables from the battery. Clean the terminal ends. Don't be wimpy. clean the beejjabbers out of them! Use a wire brush, or even a file. Then clean the battery terminals. Reassemble the cables... ( now... think about this... The largest battery cables go on first. Why? Larger cables are needed because they draw more amperage. Installing them first eliminates having to draw that current through more connections. ) hence... The cables go on, largest to smallest... Wing nuts are OK, so long as they are tightened with a tool. If you can get them off by hand, then they were NOT tight. NYLocking nuts are better, but I prefer either a "star" lockwasher. My first choice is a locking "flanged" nut. Once you have everything tight. Use a anti corrosion spray to keep the terminals clean and corrosion free.

Now you have successfully "checked" your connections! If you don't do this every spring, you are asking for trouble. We fight this issue all summer long, and we are in fresh water! I can't imagine how anyone in salt water could go without doing it! ( Sermon ends now... )

Craig
 
Sea Wolf":16zvlgs4 said:
And Dave (Oldgrowth), do you think I wcould start those three 1450 HP diesels on the "Stealth Boat" on the other thread with just one can of ether?
Click to expand...
I'll bet they have pre-heaters on them, so shouldn't need ether.
If you have pre heaters on your engine do not use ether. Could very easily blow your engine.
 
Craig-

Thanks for the informative answer! I susspected you'd have to have SOME voltage to power the ECM and the injectors. And the starter drops the voltage when the circuit is closed, just as expected.

Kinda knew there must be some hope of starting an engine with a "somewhat dead" battery, otherwise they wouldn't include a rope starter with the Owner's Manual!

On the other hand, one could always make a noose out of the rope and hang onesself, kinda like Joel's (Sea3PO's) suggestion of having a "Wallas Knife" to cut your throat when the stove croaks! Too funny!!!

Hey Dan!....Howa bouta Suzuki seppuku sword for......................!

Thanks, again for the great information, Craig.

Joe.
 
First off, thanks for everyones responses concerning my engines stalling. I have finally had enough spare time to go through all connections, fuses and battery terminals. Here is what I found; both batteries and connections were clean and tight. I cleaned them anyway, greased them and retighten them. A 20 amp fuse holder, located about a foot away from the starboard battery had some corrosion and the fuse was a bit loose in the holder. This is one that had caused me some problems in the past and I believe the one that would make all the electronics go out. I recleaned this one and crimped it a bit to make the fuse fit tight. Along side this fuse holder was a second one with a 10 amp fuse. This unit was completely corroded and when I attempted to remove the fuse, it fell apart. Obviously these watertight fuse holders are not water tight. I replaced the fuse holder with a new one and bought 2 additional spares as well that will remain on board the boat.

There is no way to duplicate the problem until likely next year at Neah Bay but everything appears to be in good shape now. Since the boat is going back in the water this weekend, I sanded down the bottom paint and recoated that. Time to go crabbing and summer/fall salmon fishing.

Thanks again everyone, McNaughty III
 
Falco,

Those units look very nice, but they didn't show the 10 and 20 amp ones that I need. I think another possibility would be to re-run the wires completely from the battery into the cabin and place the fuses inside where it is always out of the weather. But then again, this might be a stupid question but isn't everything fused at the fuse box anyway? Isn't this redundancy?

McNaughty
 
They offer a 25A, but no 10A. Not sure how you are rigged up, but my 22 has a single 50A breaker of this type for each battery set (10 AWG cable feeder to two distribution panels upfront). You might consider referring to the table here:

http://www.boatus.com/boattech/cable.htm (See "Overcurrent Protection")

to size the breaker(s) you need. Do you really need two "overcurrent protectors" as in your current set up?

As to location: best to place a breaker right next to the battery as the intent here is to "trip" any power surge from the engine/battery assembly before it travels up the line(s) to your bulkhead -- burning all the way. I was in a boat where this happened once and the heat is tremendous and doesn't stop until the wires are burned through...

The link above also recommends this.
 
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