delta anchor, chain rode problems

T

terraplane

New member
I have 150 feet of chain, LewMar 600 windlass, delta anchor, fixed roller...
The problems: the chain frequently binds and "castles" on the intake...
the anchor does not drop and i have to go forward to jar it loose.....the anchor does not set in the roller properly..it kind of swings around and comes up either upside down, or jammed on the side.
Any suggestions?

tom
 
Sounds like you are missing a swivel between the end of the chain and the anchor. You can get one of those back-to-back shackle style swivels for just a few bucks. You don't need one of them fancy fifty dollar jobs.

Pivoting bow roller. That's my answer to the self launch problem. A lot of people have come up with some pretty ingenious ways to get it to fall off a fixed roller, but the problems they imagine a pivoting roller causing have never been experienced by me. The pivoting roller also softens the landing a whole bunch when the anchor comes up.
 
Tom --
You definitely need a swivel and maybe a pivoting bow roller, as Tyboo Mike suggested. But, first a more fundamental question? Why do you have 150 feet of chain? Many CD-22 users have 20' of chain and 200 (or maybe 300 in Alaska) feet of line with a windlass and seldom have a problem. In the shallow muddy Chesapeake, a night of spinning on the hook in shifting winds can put a lot of twist in chain -- with many feet of chain on the bottom mud, it's not easy for it to unwind on the way up before hitting the gypsy of the windlass and bunching up -- line is more supple.
 
El and Bill":ej7643hp said:
But, first a more fundamental question? Why do you have 150 feet of chain?
Click to expand...

I was going to comment about that, but I remember guys beating each other up pretty good in another discussion of that question on another forum somewhere way back in my past. And I was scared. Very scared.

I agree with E&B, though. I have 15' of chain for use in the Columbia river where the current can be as stout as six knots at times, and I rarely have problems with anchor set.

A little history without dredging up too many bad memories. The original builders of the C-Dory had some strong aversion to using trim tabs on the CD22. Consequently, when customers would ask how to get the bow down and soften the hull slap, dealers would often suggest using all chain or a lot of chain as dead weight up front. But as the C-Dory owners/operators grew up, as it were, they discovered that there are conditions - especially following seas - where it is unwise to keep the nose down. With so much weight up front, it is nigh onto impossible to get it to ride high. Some started experimenting with light bow loading and trim tabs to selectively control the attitude (I believe one of the first who posted about it was our very own Yellowstone John). Now that we have seen just how great the CD hull responds to the proper use of tabs, and how much more pleasant it makes the ride, the C-Dory plant offers them as a factory option. And every person I know of except for one so far who has them recommends getting them. Just be sure and fully retract them in a following sea and when navigating high-current inlets.

(I hope I used proper grammar, because it is National Punctuation Day and El used to be an English teacher.)
 
As far as amount of chain, a good rule of thumb is aprox 1 foot of chain for each foot of boat length. This is what my Dad always uses and passed on to me (we commercial fish in Bristol Bay).

Of course this varies depending on whose thumb you are using at the time. :lol: :wink:
 
When I ordered the boat i raised the question with my dealer about the all chain rode...I've been boating on the bay in large boats...36 to 40..for 30 years and always got by with a bit of chain and then line...and only about 100 feet total...
The dealer argued strongly that their package was the chain rode and that it made the boat sit on its lines better andthe weight was an advantage.

Since i was new to the c dory i let it go. But the chain does definitely twist and the anchor just doesn't lock in the roller properly.

So, my inclination is to change to the pivoting roller and maybe 20 ft. of chain and then line.

So, for the "600"...what size line and chain. Would 100 ft of line be enough?
I think the Delta i have is the smallest one...would one step up be a good idea.

thanks, as usual, for the input.

tom
 
terraplane":21k611km said:
. Would 100 ft of line be enough?
I think the Delta i have is the smallest one...would one step up be a good idea.

tom
Click to expand...

Can't answer the other questions but if you really need the anchor to hold you need at least a 5:1 scope and maybe 7:1. At 5:1, 100' restricts you to 20' of water and 7:1 restricts you to about 14' of water. In the pac NW, tidal exchanges can be 12-14' and it's often hard to find a good shallow anchorage without being so close to shore that the swing on the line with a change in wind/current takes you into shore. Hence, I'd go with closer to 200' (or maybe even 300') of line. You have a windlass - you don't have to pull it so your only real limitations are stowage of the line and $'s in the pocket.

I think of the anchor as a very important safety feature that will allow me to stay put if the engines fail or something else bad happens. I want to be able to safely anchor, overnight in strong winds if I have to, and 100' or rope might not cut it. Also, the heavier anchor can't hurt and it's not a bad idea to have a spare. I have a two 14# deltas and a 15# bruce for my 22 and I always have one of the deltas and the bruce onboard.

Roger on the SeaDNA
 
Hi everyone,

We just got back from 5 days at the cabin and I missed 242 posts!

We bought our 22 from the same dealer as Tom. The dealer explained that the 22 was intended to use a 70 HP outboard and 150 of chain was needed to offset the extra weight of a Honda 90!

Tom: with the Sprint 600, Delta 14, swivel installed by the dealer and pivoting bow roller (installed by the factory at my resquest), I've had no problems at all.

My only concern with this set up is the inability to secure the rode in such a way as to ride out a storm. The windlass is not built to do that and when I've tried to tie a line to the chain and then cleat that to the bow, to act a snubber to take the shock, it's tough to get anything but a sub-3/8" line through a 1/4 chain, obviously.

But with 100 feet of chain on the bottom, it would take quite a blow to take the catenary out of all that chain.

Valkyrie
 
Tom, I've had 20-28 ft boats on the Bay for years and never used more than 15' of chain with line length that made me comfortable. Never had more than 150ft of line. I've been anchored in 60kt winds :shock: near a shore and never dragged once. That was with a 28ft Bayliner and with a 26ft deep keel sailboat with a lot more windage than the CD 22. You can always power up and take some strain off the rode.

If you're in deeper water, you may need more line but if the wind blows that hard, you've got no business out in deep water anyway, run for it. Don't overload Sally's Sister, you'll just stress her and you! The windlass is nice but I've never had one of those. Of course, I wasn't this old before either! :roll:

Charlie
 
The reason for the longer line is to allow one to anchor in areas with rapidly sloping bottom near shore without worrying about being taken into shore on a current change or change in the direction of wind. If one has plenty of time to pick one's anchorage, there's no worry with relatively short lines. I'm mostly worried about the situation in which one has a break-down and ends up deploying anchor to hold ground in a less than ideal place (I'm imagining being pushed towards cliffs or other sharp drop-offs). Powering up to take strain off the rode wouldn't be an option in such a case.

Also, you guys also have pretty shallow tide exchanges out there so some of what I worry about doesn't concern you (unless you tow to other places) - We had a 14' tide exchange on Sat. in Seattle and the guys in AK see even more. With 100' of line in 20' of water (at low tide) the scope can go from 5:1 to 3:1 with a 14' tide change, in 15' of water the scope goes from 6.7:1 to about 3:1. IMHO, a little extra line's a good thing, especially when you've got something to do the pulling.
 
Roger- Good thinking about the necessity of having a long anchor rode for emergencies in the Pacific NorthWest! The folks back in Chesapeake bay, however, have to look pretty hard out toward the old river channels to find anything over 30 feet deep, thus the 100 foot chain set up commonly rigged on new boats by Cutter Marine.

Tom- The above discussion has some very good ideas about the pivoting bow roller, swivel fitting, and combination chain/rope rode. All excellent suggestions. Whether or not you need to up size from the 9 lb to the 13 lb plow can only be found out by testing.

Can you drag the anchor with the power of the boat? You should be able to develop about 2000 lbs of thrust with a 90 hp engine, proportionately less with a 75 or so. I'm not familiar with the mud and sand back there, and so only local folks or a test of some kind will tell you if your hook is big enough.

Not to confuse you, but a local California Delta angler who uses a 100 ft all chain rode and the 9 lb Delta Fast set plow anchor with a swivel and a S/L 600 windlass was able to get the anchor to self-launch by adding an extra roller back near the beginning of the standard bow roller frame to tip the shaft up enough so as to cause the center of gravity to be in such a position to naturally self launch. Might be worth a try.

However, I have the S/L pivoting roller, and it works flawlessly except for the fact that I can still bring the anchor (Fortress FX-16) up sideways once in a while and have to lower it and bring it back up a time or to to straighten out.

These anchoring systems with a windlass and all the other components are a bit temperamental at first when you're still getting all the bugs out, but well worth it when you can use them over and over again later without having to get up out of the helm to do so.

Joe.
 
As Joe said, we seldom see over 30ft here in the Chesapeake, if you have more than that, you're in a shipping channel and likely to get run over by a big guy :shock:

With 100ft of chain, you could pool it up on the bottom and not even need a hook!! :wink:

I'm all for anchors/chain and line/rode combos. Have left several very heavy/expensive hooks on the bottom of the Mediterranian (that doesn't look right) Sea when the brake failed on our Destroyer and the weak link let go.... Run for it when that happens. :cry

Charlie
 
Tom,
Glad to hear you'll be repeating the Langford gathering. We hope to be there.
Since Levity came from Cutter it too had 150 foot of chain as the standard rode. I switched to 15 feet of 1/4 inch chain and 300 feet of 1/2 inch nylon. One of my frequent boating grounds has depths over 100 feet. 300 ft of rode only gives me 3:1 scope in 100 feet of water but in an emergency it may do. I found the chain cumbersome and rigging a snubber seemed an additional step in the anchoring procedure. Levity is equipped with the 14 lb Delta and it has set securely each deployment. Good luck and happy cruising on Sally's Sister.
Mike 'Levity'
 
Valkyrie: Your concerns about snubbing a Delta on a pivoting roller are shared on Alma's Only. Here's what we've done to address the problem.

Our bow anchor configuration is a Delta 14#, with swivel anchor connector (WM #289274), 20 feet of 1/4 high-test chain and 200 feet of one-half inch three strand (West Marine #151871), Lewmar Pro-Series H700 windlass (WM #6867600), and Lewmar pivoting bow roller (WM #221440). Secondary anchor is a Guardian 6 # (WM #488866), with 150 feet of 3/8 inch three strand. Four photos, under the general heading AOnly Anchor, are posted under the Anchor Detail Photo forum section.

The bow arrangement works fine, but only after some modifications to allow for proper snubbing. The problem was that if the bow roller is not secured in a straight, full up position, heavy chop and swells would cause the anchor, and the moving portion of the roller, to bang up and down with considerable force. Although the movement might initially be slight, if would always end up with the anchor and roller going up to the full up position as the bow began to come down, and then slamming to the fully extended position when the bow slammed into the water. I had no doubt that if this was not fixed, the unit would either damage the boat, or tear loose and deploy. Although the windlass could provide a temporary fix, the force necessary to bring the anchor and roller into place was considerable, and the windlass clutch would eventually slip under the extreme loading generated when the bow came down hard. Once there was any slippage, further pounding would result in the problem repeating.

My “fix” consisted of drilling holes horizontally through the roller side plates, and inserting a 5/16 inch stainless ball release pin. This locks the roller firmly in place, and is easy to remove when I want to launch the anchor. The pin is connected with a stainless cable to a cross-member in the original deck pipe, and inserted through a hole in the cross-member, and the cap closed, when the anchor is being used. The anchor snub consists of a 5/16 braided line, with stainless steel grab hooks at the end to pull the anchor back, and midway along the anchor shaft, to keep the shaft down and in contact with the roller. A hook was added to the deck of the boat to keep the snubline generally centered.

With this arrangement, there is no tension on the windlass, unless the anchor is actually being raised or lowered. And, so far, there has been no slamming of the anchor or roller.

I considered using a latching anchor chain tensioner (WM #405647) to pull the snubbing line back, but decided that the best fix was to pin the pivoting roller in place.
 
terraplane-

Nice job in engineering a bulletproof tie down solution! Neat, clean, and thorough! It's just too bad that you have to go forward to release the tie down arrangement to deploy the anchor or to secure it once it's up.

I had the same problem initially with my set up, but after I tightened the clutch on the Quick 500 to the limit, it's never slipped loose in chop again. In fact, I can hang my 230 lbs off the anchor on the trailer and not budge it.

I have the Fortress FX-16 anchor which, although intended for 33-38 ft boats, only weighs 11 lbs, which helps with the weight management issue. Plus a lot of the weight is in the shaft which is quite long and centered further back away from the bow.

I also have a Sampson Post along side of the windlass to wrap the rode around to take the load off the windlass when anchoring in windy conditions. I first bring it back around the bow cleat (to fairlead it) and then forward to the post (off center). If I think it's going to be really windy, I let more than the 100 feet of chain out and use some of the nylon rope to help absorb the shock.

One other thing that helps manage anchoring tasks is to make a hard wired remote control to pass up through the forward hatch so that you can run the windlass while on the foredeck while attending the details. DaNag Bill put his switch up near the front opening window for this purpose, but having the switch in your hand on the foredeck is even more convenient. You just have to be sure to not trip one of the up or down buttons inadvertently when your hands are around the windlass or lines.

Too bad these are such temperamental devices with so many glitches, but once you've worked out most all the problems, they're worth their cost and all the trouble.

Nice to see your work and success! Joe.
 
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