Composting toilets vs. regulations

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I've been hoping to install a composting toilet on our boat as part of our C-Dory rebuild. We also hope to spend time in the waters of Ontario, Canada and Key West, Florida where the rules regarding sewage disposal are pretty tight.

I've put in a call to the Ontario Ministry of Environment and Climate Change regarding the regulation posted below. After being transferred several times, I got a voice mail box that I don't expect to be returned; but I'll keep trying on this. This is a question that is not conclusively answered on many, many boating forums. If I'm able to get an answer that is authoritative I'll post it everywhere I can.

The one possible opening for compliance is shown in red in this paragraph:

(d) equipment designed for the incineration and storage of human excrement is supplied with such electrical current or other source of heat as is necessary to reduce to ash all excrement deposited therein

Since organisms that break down excrement might be technically considered a "source of heat", perhaps this would be interpreted as being in compliance.



I don't have the Key West regs, but here's the Ontario regulation as it currently stands:

Environmental Protection Act
R.R.O. 1990, REGULATION 343
DISCHARGE OF SEWAGE FROM PLEASURE BOATS
Consolidation Period: From February 12, 2007 to the e-Laws currency date.
Last amendment: O. Reg. 35/07.
This is the English version of a bilingual regulation.
1. In this Regulation,
“pleasure boat” means a boat used primarily for the carriage of a person or persons for pleasure, whether on charter or not, and whether for compensation or not, and includes a boat used on water for living purposes; (“bateau de plaisance”)
“sewage” means organic and inorganic waste, and includes fuel, lubricants, litter, paper, plastics, glass, metal, containers, bottles, crockery, rags, junk or similar refuse or garbage, and human excrement, but does not include,
(a) liquid wastes, free of solids, from water used in a pleasure boat for household purposes, or
(b) exhaust wastes, cooling water and bilge water from a pleasure boat; (“eaux d’égout”)
“storage equipment” means equipment of a design and construction suitable for the storage or the incineration and storage of human excrement in a pleasure boat including such equipment that is an integral part of a toilet; (“appareil d’entreposage”)
“toilet”, in relation to a pleasure boat, means equipment designed or used for defecation or urination by humans. (“cabinet de toilette”) R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 343, s. 1.
2. No person shall discharge or deposit, or cause or permit to be discharged or deposited, into any water, sewage from a pleasure boat. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 343, s. 2.
3. The owner and the operator of every pleasure boat in which a toilet is installed shall ensure that, while the boat is on water,
(a) the boat is equipped with storage equipment; and
(b) such toilet and storage equipment are installed so as to be non-portable. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 343, s. 3.
4. The owner of a pleasure boat in which a toilet or toilets and storage equipment are installed shall ensure that each toilet and the storage equipment are installed so that,
(a) the toilet and equipment are connected in such a manner that the equipment receives all toilet waste from the toilet;
(b) equipment designed for the storage of human excrement is provided with a deck fitting and such connecting piping as is necessary for the removal of toilet waste by shore-based pumping equipment;
(c) no means of removal of toilet waste is provided other than the means mentioned in clause (b);
(d) equipment designed for the incineration and storage of human excrement is supplied with such electrical current or other source of heat as is necessary to reduce to ash all excrement deposited therein; and
(e) all parts of the system for removal of toilet waste are congruent with one another and the boat. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 343, s. 4.
 
Just a couple comments. I think the idea of composting toilets are great.
But it still leaves you with having to deal with liquid waste. I they have a holding tank for liquids. The other problem as some users have noted that the diverter valve must be switched when doing the liquid thing. Some folks have a hard time not doing both at the same time. I have a friend who actually keeps a turd log if you can believe it. I wonder if the whiz just gets dumped where ever, over the side. The Keys have no discharge zones where I think that would be frowned upon. I like most fisherman have taken a leak over the side of the boat. But I would not do that in a marina. Carrying the whiz container to the marina bathrooms might be awkward. My wife vetoed the Airhead concept. I'm sure others will chime in on the pro's and cons. I think in Key West and probably all the Florida keys Airheads are an acceptable option instead of conventional holding tank systems. I remember the book Yellow River by I.P. Daily.
D.D.
 
I know that our Canadian neighbors want a pump out and that a hand carried porta potti bottom does not fit the rule. This means that no existing composting toilet fits the bill. I have a C-Head composting toilet (http://www.c-head.com/) waste needs to be dumped say every two to four weeks if you have heavy use by two (assuming the paper goes to a bag for burning or tossing). In most of the US, this toilet is OK. Some folks when they go North have a pump out toilet put in place, many do not and seem to get through the border OK. I guess you could put in the pump out deck fitting, run some pipe down to the toilet and hope they do not look. I for one would not have a holding tank on another boat.
Bob
 
I have a friend who actually keeps a turd log if you can believe it.
Click to expand...

Freeze dried or in a baggie??? :roll:

I actually got two calls back from the Ontario Ministry of Environment and Climate Change. The guy I talked to said they'd not had an enquiry on this subject before and that he - from the Toronto regional office - had been in touch with the Provincial office and they were going to discuss it. I'm taking that as a positive note at this point since they didn't just quote the letter of the law, but are going to have some internal talks and, hopefully, provide legal guidance that can be shared.

@Bob I heard/read somewhere that the AirHead owner suggested installing a pumpout fitting on the side deck with a line to the solids tank. That might technically meet specs, but who knows. I'm hoping for a clearly stated allowance for the composters...

T
 
. In this Regulation,
“pleasure boat” means a boat used primarily for the carriage of a person or persons for pleasure, whether on charter or not, and whether for compensation or not, and includes a boat used on water for living purposes; (“bateau de plaisance”)
“sewage” means organic and inorganic waste, and includes fuel, lubricants, litter, paper, plastics, glass, metal, containers, bottles, crockery, rags, junk or similar refuse or garbage, and human excrement, but does not include,
(a) liquid wastes, free of solids, from water used in a pleasure boat for household purposes, or
Click to expand...

Looking up the definition of human excrement it appears in most cases to include both human feces and urine. One can make the argument that urine is sterile, and is probably "cleaner" than shower or dish water. But if you go by the letter of the law....the only head which would be legal would be an incinerator, --leaving only ash, and a container which could only be pumped out at a shore pump out station.
The flow thru type I or II, such as Purasanj or Electrosan (macerator and clorination, are not allowed.

The composting toilet does require the organic matter and feces to be disposed of at some point in shoreside waste containers, and certainly is not in a state to be pumped out at a marine pump out facility. The urine which is defined as human excrement, has to be dumped at some point--and fairly regularly when living aboard.

Best to be ignorant--Now they have Tom's name, and if he does violate the law???Another way is to have no sanitary facilities aboard the boat. Just use shore facilities (of course it is not going to be done).

I am not a fan of the "diaper" type of containment system, since the fecal material is not handled like toxic waste--as it should be. There can easily be pathogens, and these can leak out into the environment--think 3rd world conditions...

Air head makes the statement:

Yes, “Air Head” Composting Toilet is classified as a MSD type III.
Click to expand...


During my cruising days (1982-1986), most of our areas were not under any "no discharge regulation". Even in 1992 thru 1996, there were few pump out stations in BC., Alaska. Many in the US were not maintained. I am not a fan of holding tanks, because there was no place to have them pumped out. We used shoreside facilities where ever possible, in marinas. I had an aqua lift for the generator. Of course this was in the hot engine room--and even though I was "inspected" by US CG--they seemed to buy that the aqua lift appeared to be a holding tank. This would not work in today's world. There still is an issue even in the great lakes that pump out facilities are few and far between--some are broken, some have never even been installed.

So the answer to the question is that in the US, including
Great Lakes and US inland lakes the composting is a class III device.
(But so is a porti potty!)
 
OK, well, here’s the straight poop from the Ontario Ministry of Environment and Climate Change:

He just called back to say that the regulation is old and doesn’t take into account composting, incinerating, or other ‘newer’ technologies. The old regs were written to disallow any physical means to empty waste overboard. I was told that new regulations are under discussion that will address new technology. But in the meantime, if I install a composting toilet and store any accumulated waste in the toilet or otherwise onboard, then dispose of it properly onshore there will be no problem.

I wish there was written regulation that addresses this issue, but there isn’t as yet. For me – a by-the-book kinda guy - I’m now totally comfortable with installing a composting toilet and making provisions with an air-tight container to hold bagged waste for onshore disposal.

Now to figure out the NOAA requirements for the Marine Sanctuary in the Florida Keys…
 
I posted the question of composting toilets the AGLCA (America's Great Loop Cruisers Assocation) form, and got many, many response from boaters using composting toilets.

First off, nobody ever had a problem in Canada using a composting toilet. Most people responded that the liquid tank was carried to an on-shore public toilet for emptying when available, and they hoped for a moonless night when not available! We have never been concerned about dumping the liquid tank out in the open water. Although urine, I have learned through Google, is not actually sterile, "dilution is the solution." I would not dump it in a marina, in the Erie canal, or other restricted waters, but in those circumstances, there is always going to be a restroom available.

The composted solids were emptied every three or four weeks (remember this is continuous use from months on the Loop, we empty ours once a year with weekend and summer cruising). The composted solids look like garden soil, honest. The only issue in my mind is with monthly emptying, there would almost certainly some amount of umposted "material" in the solids tank. But most people responded that they emptied their solids tank into a plastic garbage bag and disposed of it in a dumpster on shore. Maybe questionable, but that is what most people said they did.

Finally, I have no idea what "diverter valve" is. Our 2005 Airhead has no diverter valve. It separates liquid and solids by its design. I would take a photo but that might just be TMI!

Anyway, we were reassured that we can do the Loop with our Airhead.
 
Pat, When urine is formed at the pelvis of the kidney (collection system) it is normally sterile. (If not there is going to be a kidney infection). It is contaminated by small amounts of bacteria as it flows into the bladder (more in females), and then out thru the urethra. You skin also has many thousands of bacteria, and I suspose by the same logic we should not swim or wade in any bodies of water (and one of the reasons that swimming pools are chlorinated or have other disinfectants added).

There are rare cases of significant pathogens which can be passed on in the urine. But in the US, these disease are very rare. It is interesting that there was very gross contamination of the Rio waters where at least 5 water sport venues were held. Yet, there were minimal reported illnesses. There the bacterial count, and number of types of pathogens are far greater than would be present by discarding urine into the body of water.
 
My solution, like any solution, will have its advocates and its opponents.

I had to come up with something for staying several weeks on Lake Powell on a CD 16. I first though about how people dispose of other excrement, like baby diapers, dog poop, and even adult diapers. Baby diapers are often thrown in the parking lot or left in shopping carts, but that's actually not the proper method of disposal. One is supposed to remove most of the feces from the disposable diaper, flush that down a toilet, and then fold the used diaper and place it in the trash. That is probably done about as often as leaving them in a parking lot. And does removing most of the feces really accomplish anything?

The same technique is proper etiquette for people picking up dog poop in a plastic bag (reason #26 for not having a dog). Has anybody ever seen anybody squeeze the dog feces out into a toilet before throwing the bag in the trash? Not me.

I have no experience with adult diapers (yet). Actually, I have no experience with baby diapers (no kids, ergo no grand kids) and no experience with dog poop baggies (no pets). So I have never once dumped in to the trash the thousands of poopy diapers or hundreds of poopy baggies that the average American (or Canadian) has tossed.

From an ecological or "green" perspective, I figure that I have banked thousands of what I will call "poop points." I could put into the trash thousands of bags of my own BMs and still not catch up with the average person. So much for the any ecological/public safety/hygiene issues (for me).

My system is simple. It consists of a homemade WAG bag, sort of like this.

https://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Product ... FCJEHCWHRT

My system uses a 2.5 gallon bucket with an air/water tight gamma lid, a double liner of plastic bags, and "Poo Powder" (Google it). Yes, it gets dumped directly into the trash. About once a week, even when I have two people on board. That is probably less feces going in the trash than having a baby and a dog on board. And, unlike dogs and babies, there is no smell.

Like I said, probably not for everybody.

Mark
 
Note that the regulation is an Ontario regulation and does not apply to the rest of Canada as far as I know. I cruised the Canadian shore of Lake Superior a week to 10 days each summer from 2003 to 2011 with a Thetrford porti potti and no issues. Kept the pp in the cockpit with a blanket over it when in a marina, so as to not advertise its use. Only once saw a MNR boat and it was after fishing violations and heading out into the lake from the marina we were docked at. It seems to be a regulation that is administered with benign neglect unless I assume there is a blatant pollution violation and then they would have one more violation to cite besides the pollution.

Jay
 
Correct, this is an Ontario provincial regulation that supersedes that of the federal government. The gentleman I spoke to at OMECC was somewhat circumspect in his advice regarding how to proceed. Basically, whatever you do, don't throw it overboard. If they can see that you've made provisions onboard to cart the waste to the shore one is unlikely to be shackled and hauled away.
 
Bladder urine has its own micobiome. Lab tests detect common uropathogens based on conventional culture media (Blood and MacConkey agar plates) or we look for horses not zebras. However I have a seen a few zebras over the years.
 
Much of this discussion focuses on toilet hygiene on freshwater bodies or confined saltwater bays ... and I am impressed with the concern about protecting those waters from human fecal matter. We traveled with an approved MSD on Canadian waters, and disposed of its contents in shoreside toilets ... only to discover later that a few of the shoreline communities, some quite large, do not treat their municipal sewage at all, instead making use of deepwater "straight shot" pipes! Sequence: Us > MSD >toilet > sewer system > deepwater pipe. One wonders about the sanity of this!
 
In our travels to B.C. this year I could not help but notice the lack of pump out stations up in that area. Given the amount of boats that frequent the area, I would think a lot of waste just gets pumped out into their waters. Pump outs up there were 10 dollars and change. I can imagine how the cheap skates handled that issue. I think if the Canadian government might consider subsidizing by making pump outs free in an effort to keep their waters pristine. It certainly has helped clear up the waters in busy places in this country.
D.D.
 
There is a whole bunch of stuff that may be present in human urine. Sterile is something that it is not. It also can include excess drugs, vitamins, and minerals excreted from the body. Everything else that comes out of the human body is treated as a bio-hazard. It defies logic to think that urine is somehow exempt.

Further, like some other shoreline cities Victoria, BC dumped the city sewage pretty much untreated into the Juan de Fuca Straight for a very long time. Only relatively recently did the environmentalists get so wound up that they forced the city to built a massive sewage treatment facility.

However, deep dumping of sewage allows it to be "processed" naturally before it reaches the surface/shore. The effect of dumping a porta-potti over the side in/near a popular spot is much different.
 
BC is not interested in pumping out your head and disposing of its contents safely. To be specific, we were at Ganges several years ago and traveling with an ecologicaly minded couple. They insisted that we both pump our boat's heads. So we proceeded to the pump-out station, had to find the proper authority, waited, waited, waited, paid the fee, they unlocked the pump, we pumped. Lesson learned: the pump-out station may be there but Canadians are discouraging its use.

Contrast that with our visit to San Francisco Bay where every gas dock has its own pump-out, free, easily accessible and self- service.

So in each case we followed what seemed the local practice.

And to slow down the Canadian response, we absolutely loved cruising in Canada, especially BC.

Boris
 
I saw some of the same when traveling in BC, (and I love it up there), but I believe the pump outs had fees, and you had to have a marina staff available, and I witnessed on several occasions, frustrated folks feigning patience through that process.

At one point, a long ways from a pump out, (I was in Rough Bay, past Kenneth Passage on MacKinzie Inlet) when a 40 something came into the bay, passed me and went on to the end of the bay. They were nice enough to give me a couple of gallons of drinking water, and were planning to stay for a couple of days. Later as I was pout rowing in the inflatable I went by with a treat and "thank you" for the water, when I learned they were having "Head trouble". Apparently, the overboard discharge pump had quit, and the tank was full. I noticed they had a couple of round plastic 5 gallon buckets up top, and offered that I was using a "bag and bucket" system and had plenty of bags if they wanted to try that until they got back to where they could get fixed.

On board were 3 teenage girls, their Mom, an adolescent brother, and the boat owners Grandma and Grandpa. They were absolutely shocked and abhorrent that such a system could be used, and instead chose to leave the anchorage at 8PM and run 40 miles to Port Hardy for service. That was going to be a 4-6 hour trip, making a fair portion an after dark run.

I was surprised and ticked off that they were going to dump 100 gallons of "stuff (sewage) into Rough Bay, which is a very closed bay with little tidal flushing. Funny part, the had 3 crab traps set out around their boat. :shock: :disgust

If I had room, I would have an "AirHead System", and think it is about the best system available.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

IMG_2044_sized_1.thumb.jpg
 
I see freighters from all over the world in the Great Lakes. Never have I seen
a freighter at a marina pump out dock. Nor have I ever heard of a freighter
having, or being required to have, a locked "Y" valve to assure no waste is pumped
in our treasured Great Lakes waters.

Worse yet, shoreside sewage waste facilities, and/or water treatment plants, up
river from our Lakes often spill over after heavy rains dumping tons of raw
sewage into our Lakes. One specifically I have witnessed many times is the
Grand River and its spills - all the way from Lansing and Grand Rapids - into
Lake Michigan at Grand Haven. Local State Park beaches are then closed to
swimming as the nauseating brown sludge effluent enters the lake at the mouth
mixing with the clear blue unsalted water which can be seen for miles.

These pollution sources are several orders of magnitude greater than our
cumulative recreational boaters could ever be.

Yet we, the "little guys", are nit picked for our small (by comparison) recreational
MSD while the "big boys" seemingly have carte blanche to dump their chit willy
nilly.

Aye.
Grandpa used to say, "When you've had enough, call Dr Kavorkian."
 
When I worked on a NOAA research vessel, we would detour into a discharge zone (a certain number of miles offshore) and everything would go overboard. This included plastic trash bags of waste. And oily bilge water. I still remember stuff floating in a miles-long trail behind the ship with the albatross landing to inspect for possible food. And we were supposedly the good guys.

Once again I think that the only solution to pollution is population.

Mark
 
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