CD-25 Steering

colbysmith

colbysmith

Active member
Wondering what others with CD-25's think of their steering. The steering on C-Traveler seems to be much harder than it was on my earlier CD-22, Midnight Flyer, I don't really have any other CD-25's to compare it to, although I did have Tom from C-Otter drive it and he said it works the same as his. I also checked out Bill's steering in Mystery Girl (A Ranger Tug) and it seemed a lot easier. Currently C-Traveler has the two helms, and is running with SeaStar regular 1000psi helms and hosing. I have looked over the system and can't find any kinks or other restrictions in the line. I've bled all the air out, and when bleeding the system with both outboard ram ports open, the helms seem to turn much easier. I've also rebuilt the seals on the outboard ram, and nothing looks restricted there. The ram appears to be of proper size. I believe the "tightness" in he steering is also affecting the Garmin Reactor 40 autopilot with it's smartpump. It works great at hull speeds, but in fast cruise, particularly with the engine trimmed all the way down, it has a hard time keeping the boat on track. (It will sway back in forth about 30 degrees, I suspect due to how much effort it takes to turn the motor.) And the shadow drive is pretty much useless...
 
Colby, it has been a long time since we had a CD22 (since 2005), so hard for us to compare. But the SeaStar hydraulic steering on Daydream, our CD25, seems to work great, and the autopilot has never had a hard time keeping us on course except in the most confused seas! And when Sportcraft installed our Suzuki 200, they had to reinstall and bleed the hydraulic steering, and all seems to be great.
 
Nothing to do with a cd25 but I went to a baystar unit on my boat because the steering was very stiff. Unfortunately, when installing the baystar unit, I realized that my starboard motor doesn't pivot easily in its bracket. The baystar helped some, but I need to get that pivot point serviced. May be something to check.
 
colbysmith":1m77foga said:
Wondering what others with CD-25's think of their steering. The steering on C-Traveler seems to be much harder than it was on my earlier CD-22, Midnight Flyer, I don't really have any other CD-25's to compare it to, although I did have Tom from C-Otter drive it and he said it works the same as his. I also checked out Bill's steering in Mystery Girl (A Ranger Tug) and it seemed a lot easier. Currently C-Traveler has the two helms, and is running with SeaStar regular 1000psi helms and hosing. I have looked over the system and can't find any kinks or other restrictions in the line. I've bled all the air out, and when bleeding the system with both outboard ram ports open, the helms seem to turn much easier. I've also rebuilt the seals on the outboard ram, and nothing looks restricted there. The ram appears to be of proper size. I believe the "tightness" in he steering is also affecting the Garmin Reactor 40 autopilot with it's smartpump. It works great at hull speeds, but in fast cruise, particularly with the engine trimmed all the way down, it has a hard time keeping the boat on track. (It will sway back in forth about 30 degrees, I suspect due to how much effort it takes to turn the motor.) And the shadow drive is pretty much useless...
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Try disconnecting the steering cylinder from the motor. Swing motor lock to lock by hand. if stiff there is your issue. Turn steering wheel lock to lock (with motor disconnected) if stiff there is your problem?? If all good, Is there a larger displacement helm pump avail? :thup Good luck let us know.
 
Good advice to check for binding first. Couple of questions. Has it always been this way or is it getting progressively worse? Is it harder to turn one direction than the other? I ask this because with my twin outboards both turning clockwise, I had to adjust the little trim tabs under the anti-ventilation plates both all the way to their max position; otherwise, it would tend to turn right while at speed.
 
"Try disconnecting the steering cylinder from the motor. Swing motor lock to lock by hand. if stiff there is your issue." ...

I would agree with that being the first thing to check with motor trimmed all the way down if that is where you are mostly noticing the problem.
IF too stiff, there are several you tube video on that subject.
I am not having any problems with the steering (it does firm up some as speed increases but that's good) the Autopilot tracks straight.
I hope you solve this quickly and easely as you've had more than your share of headaches with your steering and AP in the past.
Alain
 
We have a CD 25 with twin Mercury 90 CT’s, both standard rotation. I have two helms and autopilot and stiff steering has has been an ongoing issue. When trimmed down there is allot of resistance when turning to port and very little resistance when turning to starboard, so little that I often have to jerk the wheel in order for the pump to catch fluid. I assume this is due to torque and a sticky hydraulic valve somewhere in the system and I am still in the process of investigating. I recently checked the pivot tube resistance as described by tsturm and others on both motors and found that the starboard engine tube is quite stiff. The two are likely separate issues but I agree that checking the pivot tube resistance is a good start.
 
The boat has always had some steering issues since I bought it. During my Sea-trial (or should I say Lake - trial, lol) the steering acted like it had some air in the line. I didn't bring it up then, as I figure that would be easy enough to bleed the system. That issue ended up being one that SeaStar knew about, and was due to hydraulic fluid passing thru the over pressure valves on the second helm. (The boat had two helms). Their fix was to sell you the Pro unit, which was a 1500 psi system, and would require new hydraulic hoses as well. My fix was to just install shutoff valves on the cockpit helm. However, the boat has continued to steer harder than what I remember of my 22, and compared to the Ranger Tug, Mystery Girl, when compared sitting still at the dock. Also, as I stated earlier, Tom from C-Otter drove my boat and stated it steered the same as his.

Along with the two helms, I've also installed the Garmin Smart Pump for the autopilot, so in essence I'm running 3 helms. And rather than teeing in at the helms, I actually placed the Tees close to the middle of the main hydraulic hoses, so not as much hose run.

I also have a mechanical linkage system between the main and the kicker. This system uses a rod inside the mains trim pivot tube, that is connected to the steering ram, and then via cable to another small steering rod on the kicker. See http://www.seastarsolutions.com/product ... ar_kicker/

So this evening I first disconnected the kicker steering rod from the main. That did make steering a little easier. Then I disconnected the main from the steering ram. Slightly easier, as expected. The outboard had no restriction in turning it by hand disconnected from the ram.

The steering is hardest at high speed with the outboard trimmed all the way down. I think my next step will be to disconnect the kicker steering link when I'm on the water, and see how the steering works then on plane. And how the autopilot does at that point.

I'm beginning to think that with more torque developed from the 150 hp on the CD-25, the steering might perform much better to go to SeaStar's Pro system. That's increasing the max PSI from 1000 to 1500. However, that also involves some more serious expenses to replace both helms and the hydraulic hoses, and I suppose the ram possibly as well. But if disconnecting the kicker resolves the issue noticeably, I will probably just do that and find a way to keep the disconnecting link from vibrating off into the water....
 
We have a CD 25 with twin Mercury 90 CT’s, both standard rotation. I have two helms and autopilot and stiff steering has has been an ongoing issue. When trimmed down there is allot of resistance when turning to port and very little resistance when turning to starboard, so little that I often have to jerk the wheel in order for the pump to catch fluid. I assume this is due to torque and a sticky hydraulic valve somewhere in the system and I am still in the process of investigating. I recently checked the pivot tube resistance as described by tsturm and others on both motors and found that the starboard engine tube is quite stiff. The two are likely separate issues but I agree that checking the pivot tube resistance is a good start.
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MannyBridge, the problem you are having is one I had earlier. SeaStar is aware of this issue and I've been told they put out a fix that involved providing a new "head' to their helm pumps. I was then told that the head just basically made them the "pro helm" that has a higher pressure and is more expensive. The problem is the hydraulic fluid is finding it's way through the other helm's overpressure valves. In two helm systems where one helm is a lot higher than the other, it's not a problem due to gravity. But on our boats where the helms are pretty much level, it's a problem. My fix for that problem was to just install shut off valves on both lines at the cockpit helm. However, I still have the stiff steering issue, and I think it has more to do with not enough hydraulic pressure for our steering system with the larger boats and motors. Colby
 
MannyBridge, I just found the answer I had posted on another thread that you might find helpful. http://www.c-brats.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... sc&start=0 It was an earlier thread that I started when I was having the problem you are having. I ended up trashing and replacing two helms that probably had nothing wrong with them, other than the issue SeaStar knew about. This reply was to me on Hull truth, by a SeaStar engineer:

The symptom you are describing with your steering occurs on single engine boats with two helms at a similar vertical height. The unbalanced prop torque creates a positive pressure in the lines in one direction, and a slight suction effect in the other direction, which pulls the helm check valves off their seat a tiny bit. When you steer slowly enough to starboard the fluid can come back through the check valve of the second helm and return to the first helm through the compensation line. If you steer quickly you will generate enough pressure to close that second check valve and it will steer normally, as you've noticed. (You can also give it a quick snap, then steer slowly and it will work. That doesn't help your AP though.)


We've traditionally recommended Pro helms for this application, because they have a different check valve design that pressurizes the steering lines and keeps the check valves firmly seated. However, we are releasing a simple add-on kit soon that will work with standard helms. The kit part number is HA5500. It will take some time for it to percolate through distribution and be available at your local dealer (you probably won't be able to order one until closer to the end of September). I don't have pricing, but it will certainly be less than the cost of a new helm. Installation should take a marine mechanic no more than half an hour, including bleed time. There's no reason you couldn't do it yourself, but bleeding the system will be faster and easier with a power purge device that most dealers will have.


While it may seem that we are just trying to sell more stuff, this bypassing is a simple consequence of physics and isn't a defect.


Additional background FYI: If the second helm is much higher than the first (on a flybridge, say) then there is enough static head (pressure) in the lines to counter the suction effect, so we don't see this bypassing. It also doesn't happen on twin engine setups, because there is no unbalanced prop torque with counter-rotating props.
 
Colby, thank you very much! My plan was to start a process of elimination by removing the AP and the second helm and then pull everything apart, check for issues and then reinstall piece by piece until I isolated the problem. Without the information you provided in your post I would have experienced the same issues as you. You have saved me countless hours of frustration and I thank you for the effort in posting that process. I will install similar valves to the ones in your picture and go from there. My guess is that I will end up reluctantly upgrading to the Pro system as well, given the twin props and all that torque.

I have a single cylinder system for the twin 90’s and recently switched from a HO5036A (or similar) to a HO-6001 tie bar system thinking that moving the pivot point in closer to the engines would change the torque distribution and possibly reduce steering effort. I can confirm that it did not make any difference.
 
Glad my rantings saved you the heartache. I still kick myself for buying two new helms that I didn't need. Unfortunately one of the helms the prior owner's shop had forced the old pipe fittings into the new ORB holes, and when I tried to rebuild it, the removing and replacing the fittings reamed out the holes beyond repair. I still have the other helm torn apart in pieces in a bag. Debating if I should send it in to be rebuilt for about a third the cost of a new one...just to have a spare... BTW, I still can't find that HA 5500 kit the guy mentioned, so doubt it's even on the market or available. If you do go to the Pro system, let me know if that corrects the stiff steering! Colby
 
I will definitely let you now how it works out if I go with the Pro. Cant have too many spare parts around, at least that seems to be my philosophy.

Do you recall the PSI rating on the valves you purchased. I am looking at a set rated at 800 which should work, wondering if you went with 1000 to match the seastar rating.
 
They were just standard 1/4" ball valves I had laying around in one of my parts bin. I had either bought them at Menards (equivalent to a Lowes) or from a local hardware store. I'll see if I can find a rating on them tomorrow. Colby
 
I may have started discussing this in another thread, but anyway, I finally pulled all the old 1000 psi hoses and replaced them with new 1500 psi hoses. And....the steering is still stiffer than I would like. I'm beginning to think it's just the way the system is going to be. For one thing, I've got about 72' total length of hose, and numerous fittings since I have the two helms and the autopilot pump. Just from the main cabin helm to the outboard ram, the length of hoses is 27', which means 54' total round trip for the fluid, with two tees in line for where the cockpit helm and AP pump come in. The fittings at each end of the hoses look to have an ID of only about 3/16", so that has to be affecting the steering pressure as well. I was thinking earlier about going to the ProHelm, but not ready to dump that much more money into it. And I suspect that is a 3 pressure line system, which according to the article below would actually require more pressure to turn the wheel. I am wondering if a larger ram would help. Currently with the Yamaha 150, I have SeaStar's HC 5358 ram which is 8.34 cu in. I did find a good article recently that speaks to my issue with marine hydraulic steering:

https://www.sbmar.com/articles/marine-h ... g-systems/

Colby
 
Just got my reply back from a technical service rep at Dometic (SeaStar). He stated that the Pro helms DO require more effort, and that I have the right ram for my setup. His exact reply: "PRO helms have more effort YES , the hc5358-3 is 100% correct and you still have manual hydraulic steering not power steering so it does take some effort "
I guess I just live with what I got and eat more Wheaties when not using the autopilot... Colby
 
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