Carburated vs EFI (Honda -- 2006 or 2007?)

[Tortuga]

Hi all,

It looks like my time to move up to a 4 stroke may be near (lost my power head on my old Yami 70 this last week). I've been seeing some deals on Honda's -- $7900 for the 2006 Carburated 90 installed and rigged (new engine) vs. $9900 for the 2007 EFI 90 installed and rigged.

I don't yet have a price on the Yamaha 90, but will look around.

I guess I'm wondering what the costs and benefits of the 2 engines (carburated vs EFI) are. $2000 savings is huge for me at this point (not expecting to be facing an engine replacement at this point) though I don't want to invest in something that I won't be happy with over the long run.

Suggestions, advice, experiences? What is the downside of the carburated motor? Especially in the area of reliability and safety?

Thanks!

Matt

 

[Captains Cat]

Matt, I had a pair of 94 45's on my 22, Hondas, of course with carbs. Lots of associated problems.

I've got a pair of 01 Suzi 115's (200 hours) on the TC255, EFI and wonderful. Turn on, wait 3 seconds and they're both going, never a whimper!

I'd sure recommend the EFI Honda! Or Suzi or Yami. They're all good.

Charlie

 

[20dauntless]

We have the Honda 90 EFI and so far it has been perfect. It starts the first time every time, never smokes, is very smooth, and easy on gas. I'd highly reccomend it. We paid $8700 for the engine, gauges, controls, and installation from the factory.

 

[tsturm]

Hi all,

It looks like my time to move up to a 4 stroke may be near (lost my power head on my old Yami 70 this last week). I've been seeing some deals on Honda's -- $7900 for the 2006 Carburated 90 installed and rigged (new engine) vs. $9900 for the 2007 EFI 90 installed and rigged.

I don't yet have a price on the Yamaha 90, but will look around.

I guess I'm wondering what the costs and benefits of the 2 engines (carburated vs EFI) are. $2000 savings is huge for me at this point (not expecting to be facing an engine replacement at this point) though I don't want to invest in something that I won't be happy with over the long run.

Suggestions, advice, experiences? What is the downside of the carburated motor? Especially in the area of reliability and safety?

Thanks!

Matt

I just upgraded to a Yamaha F115 EFI :beer Uses less fuel than the carb/F100 it replaced, all for a mere $8500.00 in the crate (that includes the Alaska Discount )?? :wink:

 

[westward]

I have to join the consensus on this one and recommend the EFI motor. It also has updated cooling and valve timing technology, is lighter, and has a better charging system.. I opted for twin (carb) BF40's last year mainly because the new EFI 90 was still experiencing initial glitches with the control brain, but I'll bet these are all ironed out by now. Now I come to find out that the 40/50 are being similarly updated. The old Honda 90 motor will run reliably for a long, long time so purchasing that one would by no means be a a "bad" move, just older technology. Good luck with whatever you select. Mike.

 

[Plan C]

I replaced a Honda 75 with a 90EFI a year ago and the difference is huge. The 90 is lighter, 15HP greater, starts perfectly (usually an issue with the 75), runs smoother, and gets 1 mpg better. Easy choice.

Dave

 

[Sea Wolf]

I replaced a Honda 75 with a 90EFI a year ago and the difference is huge. The 90 is lighter, 15HP greater, starts perfectly (usually an issue with the 75), runs smoother, and gets 1 mpg better. Easy choice.

Dave

Dave-

That new Honda EFI 90 is widely rumored to actually have 105 hp, and, if true, you actually have 30 more hp than before!

Joe. :teeth :thup

 

[breausaw]

The pasture is not always greener on the other side of the hill.
My 06 Honda carbureted 90 gets almost exactly the same MPG as a fellow Brat with same boat equipped with the Honda EFI model. The only difference I see in comparing notes is his higher speed a WOT, hence more HP or better prop selection or less weight or all of the above.
$2000 in savings will get you a lot of boat stuff, or just make a smaller hole in your wallet.
I’m happy with my BF90, its starts just fine if I pump up the bulb and throttle her up.
The guy I bought my boat from said it was a hard starter, but have never had a problem.
Yea I’ve had to hit the starter a couple of times now and then but not really an issue.
If unlimited funds were available I’d trade up, buy a bigger boat, more power, more stuff, better electronics, nicer fishing gear, etc, etc, etc.
You have to do a Cost benefit analysis that works for you.

 

[Wefings]

If you think you will use your boat alot , and participate in maintaining it ,the carb motor is a bargain . If you want the freedom to not have to ""winterize" and worry about preventing carb cleanings and just have less fuel issues ,and value that little bit more top end and economy , the EFI is a great motor. The EFIs all are . Note that the Honda is the only vestige of the "old days" left and disappearing fast. They changed them for a reason .However ,if you understand what you have with a carb Honda , it still a masterpiece of engineering.
Marc

 

[Will-C]

Hello,
If you can swing the extra 2k I'd buy the late model motor. Apples to apples the EFI motor should be cheaper to run and maintain. One springtime trip for carb cleaning or worse carborator replacement would eat up a good chunk of that 2k. Ask Sleepy C. Resale value, lighter weight,and the benefit of all around new technology. If you really want to save money slap a 50 or 70hp motor on the back. :dog
D.D.

 

[Les Lampman]

Hi all,

It looks like my time to move up to a 4 stroke may be near (lost my power head on my old Yami 70 this last week). I've been seeing some deals on Honda's -- $7900 for the 2006 Carburated 90 installed and rigged (new engine) vs. $9900 for the 2007 EFI 90 installed and rigged.

I don't yet have a price on the Yamaha 90, but will look around.

I guess I'm wondering what the costs and benefits of the 2 engines (carburated vs EFI) are. $2000 savings is huge for me at this point (not expecting to be facing an engine replacement at this point) though I don't want to invest in something that I won't be happy with over the long run.

Suggestions, advice, experiences? What is the downside of the carburated motor? Especially in the area of reliability and safety?

Thanks!

Matt

Hi Matt,

You almost can't make a mistake here. Folks can beat the EFI drum all they want but that darn carbureted BF75/90 has been in the field about 13 years and it's been an incredible engine. I personally know of BF90s with 8,000 hours on them; that's NOT the norm but it can happen so the power heads are robust.

I've rarely had to clean the carbs on a BF75/90; that doesn't mean never but you've really got to neglect them before the carbs are an issue (this isn't the same on the BF40/50). The engine has a disconnectable fuel line so just running it out of fuel when it's going to sit for any length of time will do the trick. Beyond that the winterization is opening each of the four slotted screwheads on the bottom of each bowl. After you've run the engine out of fuel you get a few drips out of each. That's the full extent of it.

I totally disagree with the idea that the EFI will somehow be cheaper to maintain. You can come in here with BF90 carbs that are plugged to the gills and I can tell you that in 1.5 hours I can have them pulled, cleaned, and the engine running. If you have an EFI engine I get to connect the specialized Honda PDA unit and start figuring out what's not right amongst lots of sensors. The EFI engine had been out over a year now and I'm still have rough running issues even though Honda sent one of their engineers out here and the came out with a new program (now that one isn't working after the first 60 to 80 hours it seems). I know they'll get it sorted out; it's just really frustrating.

The new BF90D (EFI) does have a much, much better alternator (from 16 amps on the old engine to 35 on the new) and for some this alone would make the decision.

The old BF75/90 was not a "hard starter"; the problem was folks not knowing how to start them (remember they came out when almost no one had 4-strokes and were used to starting 2-stokes...and it's different) and that was mostly due to dealers not knowing and/or not teaching their customers. It is true all the new EFI engines require no starting technique...you just turn the key.

Honda quit building carbureted engines because that's what the market demands. The did not go to EFI because after 13 years of production they started having issues with the carbureted models. Those old 75/90s ended up everywhere; we could be sitting in the most remote spot imaginable and with very basic tools (wrench and screwdriver) I could completley remove, clean, and re-install the carbs on the BF75/90A. I'd like to see someone do that on an EFI engine having trouble in the same locale (just hope FedEx can get there).

So all this ballyhoo about EFI and things being better is just BS. It is true that it's newer and different technology but it doesn't make it "better" just for being that. All the 4-strokes over 100-hp were EFI from the get-go because when they came out the EPA had standards that couldn't be met with carbs. Some manufacturers (like Suzuki) just started with EFI to begin with on smaller engines and others (like Honda and Yamaha) changed to meet market demands or EPA standards. Given the age of the BF75/90A (Honda seems to change about every 10 years) it was time for a new model to answer new challenges from competitors and new demands from consumers. What company in their right mind (if for no other reason than marketing) would not have added EFI when redesigning a new engine these days so the change came about not because of "issues" with the previous BF75/90A but because the marketing department insisted on a new model.

The BF75/90A carb engine is smoother and quieter than the new BF75/90D EFI model. The new engine is slightly lighter (15 pounds) and easier to start (how much easier does it get than turning the key?). The new engine has a much better alternator. If you get the 90 version the engine outputs 99 horsepower at 6300 rpm (they're allowed a 10% margin on the "stickered" hp rating). The BF90D needs to be propped for max rpm (6300) or the EFI program does not work correctly in some applications (the CD22 generally being one of them).

You don't really need anything larger than the BF75D if you go that way; how much would that save you? The CD22 hull never did need more than 75 hp (unless at high altitude); I don't know where this horsepower fever came from. They're just not that kind of hull.

 

[wannabeowner2]

you've really got to neglect them before the carbs are an issue (this isn't the same on the BF40/50).

Hey, Les. Your well written (as usual) post caught my eye on the above words re: maintenance on the BF40/50. Sioux and I are torn between buying a used 16 (which almost always on the 16 means a BF40/50) or new and going with EFI.

I know with your C-Dory issues you have no financial incentive to help us out here so I'll fall back on your good nature. Could you briefly address any "issues" for prospective buyers of a used BF40/50?

Thank you in advance, Les.

Steve

PS Not to hi-jack the thread but I'd appreciate any other viewpoints on this subject too. If the administrators think this post should go on a separate thread have at it!

NOTE: We are still evaluating our options on used 16's, either Cruisers or Anglers. So if someone is thinking about selling and wants a quick cash deal drop me an e-mail at stoburen@homefrontsuccess.com (On edit I see that I still need to change my tag line to the "elusive 16"!)

 

[Da Nag]

The new BF90D (EFI) does have a much, much better alternator (from 16 amps on the old engine to 35 on the new) and for some this alone would make the decision.

Yup...that's the only thing about the new model that I find attractive. Otherwise, I'm actually glad to have gotten in before the EFI craze.

I was in the middle of a nice, long writeup...mentioning most of the things Les did. Which makes sense...he's the source of most of my engine knowledge.

To me, a boat is something where simplicity should be the primary goal, forgoing it only where one might gain significant advantages. Easier starting is not a significant advantage, nor is the fact that anything EFI related requires a specialist to diagnose/repair. Carb cleaning/repair is easily done by many DIY'ers, with minimal hand tools.

Another advantage I've seen mentioned repeatedly - the "stranded" issue. While I've no personal experience with it, it's commonly mentioned that carb engines can withstand bad gas better than EFI...rough running/sputtering will hopefully get you back to port, whereas an EFI engine is not so forgiving.

RE the decision being asked about - to me, a $2K difference makes it a no-brainer. I'd go with the proven carb model, and laugh all the way to the bank.

Now, about that alternator issue...why hasn't anyone come up with an aftermarket replacement for the anemic BF75/90 unit? Such upgrades are commonplace in the automotive market. Given the number of "old" BF75/90's out there, one would think such an upgrade would be very popular.

 

[Wefings]

There is a dramatic difference in fuel related carb issues here in the south as opposed to the north . We have much more incidence of fuel related problems here than they do in the north west or north east . I have noted that speaking with many dealers that I have met . Must be the humidity here or the heat .
Marc

 

[Tom on Icarus]

Some of you might remember from earlier posts that I had carburetor problems earlier this year with my BF75. In the end, even after putting in all new jets and giving it the full treatment, #4 carb still would not deliver any fuel at idle so I had to replace it. Now she idles fine again. Don’t know what caused the problem but my mechanic friend said that he has seen it before…..just not usually with Hondas.
If anyone needs to replace a carb you should check out “boats.net”. I bought one through them for one third of what our Honda dealer wanted…….genuine Honda parts too. They are based in Florida and sell parts for most makes of motors.
Any Brats need parts??……check out…. “boats.net”. I saved a bundle.

Cheers, :beer
Tom

 

[Les Lampman]

you've really got to neglect them before the carbs are an issue (this isn't the same on the BF40/50).

Hey, Les. Your well written (as usual) post caught my eye on the above words re: maintenance on the BF40/50. Sioux and I are torn between buying a used 16 (which almost always on the 16 means a BF40/50) or new and going with EFI.

I know with your C-Dory issues you have no financial incentive to help us out here so I'll fall back on your good nature. Could you briefly address any "issues" for prospective buyers of a used BF40/50?

Thank you in advance, Les.

Steve

PS Not to hi-jack the thread but I'd appreciate any other viewpoints on this subject too. If the administrators think this post should go on a separate thread have at it!

NOTE: We are still evaluating our options on used 16's, either Cruisers or Anglers. So if someone is thinking about selling and wants a quick cash deal drop me an e-mail at stoburen@homefrontsuccess.com (On edit I see that I still need to change my tag line to the "elusive 16"!)

Hi Steve,

I wouldn't personally NOT buy a CD16 because it had a BF40/50 "A" model carb engine on it. They were and are great engines. Any individual specimen may or may not be a "good" engine but you can't apply that to all of them (just as you won't be able to when there are many used "D" model EFI BF40/50s out there). The advantage the carb model will have on a CD16, espcially the Cruiser model, is weight (less of it). It's only about 10 pounds but on a CD16 pounds count so keep the kicker small too if it has one. The advantage the EFI model will have is a much larger alternator (not typically needed on the CD16), maybe a bit better fuel mileage (I think this is going to be illusive), and the instant starting the EFI has (though if started properly the "A" model is not difficult).

Bottom line...I wouldn't let the engine dictate my choice in this situation. Either find a good used CD16 you're happy with and buy it or decide you'd really be a lot happier with an all-new rig (regardless of engine).

 

[Anonymous]

Now have almost 90 hours on the J.C.Lately which was acquired from Les with one of his last BF90s. This is my first experience with an outboard (since the 1950s!) and I am continuously amazed by how civilized the engine is. I opted for an old and proven design in lieu of a newer and better(?) one; and so far have no reason to question the wisdom of that decision.
One thing - it's quite sensitive to throttle position to achieve the rapid idle, so I've stuck a piece of tape on the side of the throttle quadrant to remind myself of just where the handle needs to be in order to start on the first crank.
It's a nice piece of machinery - consider what else you might acquire for the $2k difference.

Paul Priest
Sequim

 

[tpbrady]

Les,

Being a BF90D owner, could you elaborate on this comment:

The BF90D needs to be propped for max rpm (6300) or the EFI program does not work correctly in some applications (the CD22 generally being one of them).

I tend to agree it doesn't work correctly in some applications. My experience is full consumption spikes significantly beyond 3900-4000 rpm depending on prop pitch and load to where it consumes more than a BF90A until you get up to 90% of WOT.