Blue Seas 7600 -- BatteryLink ACR

B

BRAZO

New member
I'm interested in adding (2) Blue Seas 7600 BatteryLink ACR to our battery configuration.

The question I have is:

We have 3 battery banks -- 1 for the port engine, 1 for the starboard engine, and 1 for the house battery. I would like to add two Blue Sea 7600's (one between the house and port engine and one between the house and the starboard engine). This would manage all the batteries with the shore charger and the altenators on the engines.

Can I add 2 BatteryLink ACR's to handle the 3 battery banks or can you only use 1 per setup?

Thanks for your help.
 
Robert,

You can certainly use 2 ACR's, just not at the same time. You can't charge a battery from 2 different sources. There are numerous threads on this.

If you could use Balmar external regulators, they also make a device where they could be combined. Each piece is over $200. And, I've never heard of anyone succesfully adapting an external regulator to an outboard engine.

I have two house batteries, combined to the two start batteries with ACR's. I only combine the two when at anchor or when charging with the inverter/charger.

Wiring diagram on request by PM. Good luck!
 
I use two of the 7600's, but a bit differently. We have one house battery, charged by the port engine, and two house batteries charged by the Stb engine. Battery charger has 3 outputs--and 5 amps each to the engine start, plus the 10 amp to the single house. A 40 amp Prosine charger to the dual bank house batteries.

Not sure what charger you have, but best would be 5, 5 10 amps. That does not need a combiner and will keep the two engine starts as well as the house batteries charged. As Roger says, you don't use two 7600's on a single battery at the same time--the combination switches refered to use one VSR at a time..

On the other hand, you can manage all of this with just battery switches--but the sets of switches/VSR may well be a good solution for you.

Note that some engines (such as Suzuki) has two alternator outputs.
 
Thanks Guys -- I appreciate the info. Looks like the VSR might be the way for me to go. Seeing that I'm setting this up from scratch, I'd like to have it as "Auto" as possible.

Have a nice day.
 
Hi all, I have a new 19 and keep thinking that the battery in the stern was not the best place for the rigger to install it. I want to keep the back as light as possible. Does anyone have an install where they have terminated the ends off the battery in the locker to positive and negative power posts and then relocated the battery forward under the v berth with appropriate size cables? any challenges with a remote battery install like that as long as the breaker is close to the battery? I think the 19 can use weight forward and be better than weight aft. I should probably move that dog forward some too. She won't notice.
 
ghone-

No problem with moving the battery forward for weight distribution, just be sure to:

1. Use a good battery box(es), and anchor them down good.

2. Use sufficiently large cables to overcome the voltage drop due to resistance of the longer wire. Wire Gauge and Current Limits Use the calculator at the bottom of the page. Be sure to use the round trip cable distance.

3. Be sure the battery is in a vented area if it is a conventional lead-acid type that gives off hydrogen and oxygen gases ((explosive when recombining from a spark). Not too much of a problem in a 19 w/o a rear bulkhead. Some batteries do not give off gasses (AGM and Gel Cells).

4. Have the circuit breaker appropriately close to the battery box and easily viewable and resettable.

5. Route the cables and tie them down with rubber grommeted straps to prevent chafing through their insulation and starting a fire. (They could be routed in PVC pipes.)

6. Use marine-specific tinned cable so that salt air won't corrode the copper core away.

7. Set the cable lugs (end connectors) up tightly with a swadging tool to minimize resistance and voltage drop. An auto or marine shop can swadge the cables and connector lugs if you don't have the equipment.

8. Tighten down connections with a wrench, or, if using wing nuts, with pliers to minimize resistance and voltage drop.

9. Spray the battery posts and cable connections with Boeshield, WD-40, or a special electrical insulator spray to prevent corrosion.

10. I'd put in a battery switch close to the battery(ies) to minimize the amount of electrically "hot" cable in the boat when the batteries are at rest and not being used.

Have fun while you're doing it!!!

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
No problem with the battery foreward, but I am not sure I would put it under the V berth. For example I have an 18 foot center console with the battery under the console--about 10 feet from the engine. There are specific terminal posts available, which have rubber covers to prevent arcing and are to ABYC standards. But you are using the starting battery up there--so there is a lot of load with the engine start--you will need a fuse of 300 to 500 amps within 7" of the battery. If you keep the battery 10 feet from the post you can get away with 1/0 cable--that means 20 feet of cable @ $12 a foot, plus another $40 + for the fuse and fuse block (assumption that your engine does not take more than 300 amps to start--if it is 500 amps, go to 2/0 cable and 500 amp fuse.

Generally if putting batteries in living spaces, it is advised to use AGM batteries ($$$)-because of gas production. But many boats have the batteries in the living space. In my current boats I am only using AGM batteries (house) inside of the cabin.

To me this is a lot of expense and compliation to move 40 to 50 lbs forward. I don't believe that moving this small amount of weight will make much difference in the boat's handling. If you don't have trim tabs, or Permatrim--for about the same amount of money, these will give a much better performance increase.
 
Thanks for the input gentlemen. It is a fair bit of work to move for the sake of not much weight. I'll run the boat some more hours and see if I want to do it. I'm still thinking a bit like a sailor about moving weight closer to the center of gravity. I really appreciate the points given, thanks a bunch.
 
I was surprised to find out (from Bob) some Suzukis have two alternator outputs. I am assuming these are two (each independent of the other) outputs - is that correct?

I have the 2008 Suzuki DF150. The book is in the boat and not in front of me - not sure it will demonstrate the wiring schematic with detail of the two alternator outputs, but I can check on-line to see if there is a wiring schematic demonstrating this for the engine I have.

I just purchased a Xantrex PRO Inverter XM 1800 and I was going to upgrade my Guest 5/5/10 Charger with the purchase of a Xantrex XC5012 Multi-Stage Charger - 50 Amps/12vDC Output.

However, my brain is spinning after I read this thread and Bob's statement regarding two (assuming independent) alternator outputs.

Am I totally and completely off my rocker in thinking there might be some (even remote) chance I might be able to employ two independent charging systems - one of the alternator outputs on a battery bank with the Guest 5/5/10; and, one of the alternator outputs on a battery bank with the Xantrex XC5012?

If possible, is this just plain weird? I'm thinking I could have two completely independent charging systems for two indpendent battery banks. I realize the engine and the 44 amp alternator would appear to be the most limiting factors in this scenario, but I'm curious to know the answer because I'm just deviant enough to do it. Heck, I already have one complete charging system in the boat. I would change out the Guest 5/5/10 with the Xantrex XC5012 since the Xantrex PRO Inverter XM 1800 is going on this bank and coupled into the boat's current electrical grid (including the Galvonic Isolator). I could then employ the Guest 5/5/10 as an additional independent charging system for another battery bank?

Sanity check please!
 
Norm-

From what I'm able to discern your 150 hp Suzuki has a single 44 amp alternator output.

The new Suzuki 300 and the 250/225/200's have a 54 amp output.

The only one that is mentioned to have a dual output is the 300:

"Suzuki engineers know how important a full arsenal of sophisticated
electronics is to today’s modern fisherman, so they’ve included a powerful
12V 54 Amp alternator that delivers plenty of juice to power up fishfinders,
GPS chart plotters, radar systems, baitwell pumps, spreader lights and
more. The DF300 also features a dual circuit charging system that can
be adapted to accommodate the dual-battery configurations often used on
large boats. The system is designed to charge both the cranking and
house batteries simultaneously but on independent circuits. Boaters can
drain their house battery running trolling motors, electronics or pumps and
still have a fully charged cranking battery for starting the outboard motor."
SOURCE

And Specifications.


That Xantex XC5012 Multi-Stage charger requires 120 VAC to run it's three battery circuit outputs, and your options are to

1) run it on Shore Power, or

2) generate 120 vac with the inverter, then use that 120 vac to run the charger, and charge the batteries. At least it seems so at first.

But, with this second choice, we're stuck in a loop! We're using the battieries to charge themselves!

Current comes out of the batteries to power the inverter which then generates the 120 volt current to power the charger which returns current to the batteries. Either we have a perpetual motion machine, or something's not right.

We could add in the current to the batteries to our system from the motor's alternator, but why not just charge them directly with current from the engine's alternator, using the appropriate manual or electronic switching units/relays to prioritize the charging?

Another, somewhat less serious problem, is that if the charger is going to put out it's full 50 amps, a 44 amp alternator won't supply the inverter with enough power at 12vdc to convert to 120 vac then back to 50 amps 12vdc in the charger. (Heat loss inefficiency, etc.)

So your 1800 Watt inverter is a good idea (with enough battery capacity to supply it), and the 50 amp charger is also a good choice, but only to use on Shore Power. Connect the engine's single alternator to the batteries through the appropriate switching gear, and you'll be all set to go.

Sell the Guest 5/5/10 or find another use for it on another boat, if you have one.

When you do all of this, check out all your batteries to be sure they're in very good condition, especially if you'll be connecting them in parallel at any time with the switching gear that distributes the alternator's charging to them, or have them simply connected in parallel to supply power, because if one is weaker than the others, it will draw them down to it's level.

Hope this helps and it correct, it's late and I'm not as sharp as I am during the day as it's now after midnight on Sunday 12 am!

Good Luck!

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
It doesn't look like the DF150 has dual circuit outputs - which is fine, no worries. I was just thinking I might have another option to consider if there were two independent circuits available from the alternator. I just reviewed the 44 amp alternator on the DF150 - reaches nearly 80% of it's total output at 1,000rpm - which is rather impressive.

I have two new Type 27 Series Deep Cycle batteries. I'm going to trace the wires to convince/familiarize myself w/ their cable runs e.g. alternator, AGR [isolator(s)], battery switch, batteries, AC subpanel wiring, etc.

I'm going outside to uncover the boat & spend some time reviewing the electrical wiring today (after I finish putting in my final 110VAC duplex in my garage). I upgraded my unattached garage+work-shed+garden-shop with an independent 30AMP sub-panel [and separate/independent GROUND] from the house 200AMP main service panel. I have a great friend who is a certified electrician. I've rewired and upgraded nearly all the electrical in my home (aside from a couple of bedrooms) over the past 8 years - a job you either love or hate. I've put in new dedicated circuits for our office (containing 6 servers, UPS, printers, routers, switches, KVX, etc.), dedicated refer runs, dedicated living-room stereo runs, yadda-yadda. Having the old unattached garage on its own dedicated 30AMP sub-panel feed assures me guaranteed polarity since I did it myself. I ask my friend (Jack) to review my wiring, runs, connections and certify them. (BTW, the house was built in 1930 - over the years, the previous (single-owner family) simply grabbed a line from one of the bedrooms, spliced into it, hung the Romex (rusted-through) wire from the house to the garage to supply electrical to 8 different duplexes & switches - :mrgreen: ).

I also reviewed (in more detail) the Guest 5/5/10 charger. At this point, after a pretty thorough review of the Guest 5/5/10, I'm not sure I'm going to upgrade the battery charger - it appears to me (when comparing this Guest 5/5/10 to other manufacturers) it is quite capable, designed well, and I'm not really buying much more for my $$ if I upgrade just the Battery Charger.

The part I need to understand more fully is this. Currently, I believe my two Type 27 batteries are connected in parallel - one battery to one of the available 5AMP lug sets, and one battery to the other 5AMP lug sets on the Guest 5/5/10. I'm not sure about the 10AMP lug set. From my understanding (thus far), each is an independent charging system (e.g. 5/5/10) - but, I'm just not clear if, in fact, the current batteries are hooked up as I just indicated (I'll have a look within the hour though). If that is the case, I have two new Type 27 batteries already tied to each of the AMP circuits, and I assume I still have one (free) remaining independent 10AMP circuit available - so, I have some options IMO. Is this correct logic?

Also, the Guest 5/5/10 can (from what I just read) handle batteries of various types - "independently" - on each of the three circuits - which, unless I'm a mistaken, is a solid benefit and one which provides even more options since I can choose to employ various battery "types" (e.g. lead-acid engine starting, deep cycle, liquid electrolyte, no maintenance sealed, or gel cell type).
 
Norm-

I'd check with the Technical Rep. at Guest before I did it, but I remember about a month or two ago someone (maybe Bob Austin), saying that you could put the two 5 amp circuits together on one battery in parallel, and then use the remaining 10 amp circuit on the second battery, effectively giving you two 10 amp charging circuits.

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Joe,

Good timing. I've spent more time on the boat than the garage duplexes - my bad.

I think you're correct as it relates to even my "current" [absolutley NO PUN INTENDED I tell you] electrical grid - I'll confirm this further - but, thus far tracing the cable runs from the Guest 5/5/10, and reviewing the LED displays, I think it is setup exactly as you have stated Bob said could be accomplished - 5+5=10AMP, and 10AMP.

More on this after the duplexes are finished. I'm topping off the batteries today.

Thanks,
Norm
 
From the Suzuki 150/175 Brochure: (it was not put in the alternator section)
"The regulator also includes isolator function in the battery
charging system that allows use of two batteries. Electric
current is split into two circuits. If the sub battery becomes
drained, this system will safeguard the main battery. "

This is basically putting diodes in the output of the regulator circuit, which allows charging of two batteries without connecting them in parallel. Is this the same as "two outputs"?--I guess one could argue that two alterntors would be better...

My Suzuki 150 has two charging outputs (two separate plugs)--one can go to the house battery and the other to the engine start battery. If you only have two batteries, this is a good set up. If you have more banks--then a different setup might be better.

The only reason to get the larger charger is to allow a faster charge from shore power or a portable generator. (Charging a battery which a refrigerator has drawn 60 amps from, at 10 amps or less can take 6 hours of generator time-at 20 amps only 3 hours. (but the battery will not be fully charged, because of the taper of the battery charger as it nears full charge of the battery.

A battery charger uses diodes to spit the output--I only have a 10 amp guest charger, and splits it with diodes into 2 five amp cirucits. I don't remember that I said that combining the two 5 amp charging circuits will give 10 amps from the battery charger to one battery, it would to two isolated batteries (5 each). The Guest 20 amp battery charger has 5, 5 and 10 amp circuits output--and will charge 3 batteries. I don't know if that charger was put on the 2007 C dory 25 with only two batteries. It would make more sense for a boat with two engine start and one house bank. My C Dory 25 only has a 5, 5 amp charger (total of 10 amps).

Now as for Joe's "perpetual electrical energy machine"--it will not work. There is ineffeciency in both the inverter and battery charger--thus you loose power. This is why most boats with inverters split the bus. Any 110 volt loads which are high resistive loads (such as the water heater) and the battery charging loads are kept off the inverter and only operate when the boat is pluged into separate shore mains or generator power.
 
Right, I saw into Joe's perpetual energy machine - not what I had intended or was conveying.

However, I have a 2008 Suzuki DF150. I'll look at the documentation closely in short order to see if there are two output separator plugs.

Also, I have a 2007 C-Dory 25' Cruiser and yes it came with the Guest 5/5/10 Battery Charger and a Guest 30AMP Galvonic Isolator; and, as I have indicated, I have two Interstate SRM-27 Group 27(A) 750MCA Deep Cycle Batteries. At this point, following the wiring runs, I can tell for certainty that all three lug sets (e.g. 5/5/10) have wires connected to the Guest 5/5/10 Battery Charger (at least there are wires: black/blue-stripe-over-red (LUG SET 1); black/black-stripe-over-red (LUG SET 2 [middle lugs]); and, black/solid-red (LUG SET 3). From the Guest 5/5/10 Owner's Manual diagrams: LUG SET 1=5AMP; LUG SET 2=5AMP; and, LUG SET 3=10AMP.

You can connect this beast in one of two manners (based upon the Guest Owner's Manual documentation):

(1) Used with x2 12V Batteries (in series; yielding x1 parallel circuit) for a 24V system, and x1 other 12V Battery (yielding x1 additional parallel circuit) (e.g. 5+5 [x2 5AMP in series=x1 parallel circuit]/10 [x1 parallel 10 AMP circuit]) - essentially x2 parallel circuits; or,

(2) Used with x3 independent (parallel circuits) 12V Batteries [5/5/10].

I'm currently in the process of deciphering those color-coded wiring runs from the Guest 5/5/10 Battery Charger aft-wards into the stern-transom vestibule. I'll create a schematic of my own which demonstrates the connections to the various isolators, batteries, bus bars & battery switch.

The thing which is odd about the LED display on the Guest 5/5/10 Battery Charger is the fact there are only TWO LED displays - not three - as I would have suspected. So, again, additional thoughtful studying of this crows-nest should prove rewarding - I wonder how I'd shape under the influence of an oil-can (FOSTER's that is).
 
The quote about the regulator is from the current (2009) brochure on line. But the same holds true for the 2006 engines--I do not believe that there is any change between 2006 and 2009 in the charging circuits.

Hopefully C Dory has kept the same code to the batteries--but I suspect they may not have. When adding more wire, they often use a black for negative and red or orange for positive (at least that is what was done in my Tom cat and earlier C Dory 25.)

I am interested in the 24 volt charging circuit-(realizing it does not apply to your boat)--Does the charger sense that there is already a 12 volt potential at the ground point on the second set of leads hooked up--thus putting the charging circuit into series for 24 volts? Usually one has to have a parallel/series switch or plug so that each battery is charged at 12 volts, and then up in series for use on the trolling motor.

Be sure and label all of the wires as you trace them out--on the wire, as well as on the diagram. That way if you have a problem, it will be faster to find the correct wire. Also check to be sure that there is a fuse at the battery ever for the charging circuit.
 
Just for the record:

I was not suggesting that the electric "Perpetual Motion Machine" would work!

Not from a Physics / Chemistry / Science teacher, for sure!

I was apparently unclear on what Norm was proposing, and exploring what I thought he was suggesting, so went down that line of thinking to show that it wouldn't work, without outright condemning it.

Read the both posts again and you'll see what I mean.

I wrote:

"2) generate 120 vac with the inverter, then use that 120 vac to run the charger, and charge the batteries. At least it seems so at first.

But, with this second choice, we're stuck in a loop! We're using the battieries to charge themselves!

Current comes out of the batteries to power the inverter which then generates the 120 volt current to power the charger which returns current to the batteries. Either we have a perpetual motion machine, or something's not right."

The next time I invent a Perpetual Motion Machine and / or Endless and Inexhaustable Free Energy Source I'll be sure to let you know just as soon as get home from the Patent Office!

Joe. :lol:
 
Sea Wolf":21g7knll said:
Current comes out of the batteries to power the inverter which then generates the 120 volt current to power the charger which returns current to the batteries. Either we have a perpetual motion machine, or something's not right."

The next time I invent a Perpetual Motion Machine and / or Endless and Inexhaustable Free Energy Source I'll be sure to let you know just as soon as get home from the Patent Office!

Joe. :lol:
Click to expand...

If both devices were 100% efficient, it would run forever but they are not and never will be. There will also be losses in the wires and everything else due to heat...

I once thought I had done something like that though.... For my Masters thesis, I wrote a digital simulation for the Automatic Combustion Control System for the boilers on an Aircraft Carrier. When I opened the throttles on the simulation, it made fuel oil and feedwater! Wow!! :shock:

After a few sign changes, it reverted to what it should have done! :oops:

BTW, I reread my thesis once in awhile and don't understand it any more...Don't wait for the movie to come out... :smilep

Charlie
 
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