Bedding for a windlass
- Thread starter AK Angler
- Start date
Hello Rod,
I'm a big fan of butyl tape for bedding deck hardware - so that would be my preference. Especially after reading the tutorial on PBase (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware). The tape works AT LEAST as well as any compound that you squirt out of a tube but is FAR LESS messy and wasteful.
Don't forget to chamfer your holes!
Fair Winds and Sealed deck penetrations!
dave
I'm a big fan of butyl tape for bedding deck hardware - so that would be my preference. Especially after reading the tutorial on PBase (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware). The tape works AT LEAST as well as any compound that you squirt out of a tube but is FAR LESS messy and wasteful.
Don't forget to chamfer your holes!
Fair Winds and Sealed deck penetrations!
dave
As Dave, I would surely recommend that all of the penetrations in the deck be epoxy sealed by routing out the core, and filling with epoxy. (Also particularly true of windlass, where there is compressive load put on deck core).
If you are using the Butyl tape, I would be sure that the bolts are checked for tightness regularly ( I use some blue loctite on the threads), because the tape seal depends on keeping pressure. Be sure that the area around the hole in the deck which the rode passes thru, also has a good seal with the butyl tape. This means that the deck should be flat and fair (non skid removed--either ground off, and faired, or filled with thick epoxy, and faired)
I have also used Boat Life Life Seal. Life Caulk works, but has a longer drying time (Polysulfide). Either are more tolerant of irregularities in the deck surface than the butyl tape.
If you are using the Butyl tape, I would be sure that the bolts are checked for tightness regularly ( I use some blue loctite on the threads), because the tape seal depends on keeping pressure. Be sure that the area around the hole in the deck which the rode passes thru, also has a good seal with the butyl tape. This means that the deck should be flat and fair (non skid removed--either ground off, and faired, or filled with thick epoxy, and faired)
I have also used Boat Life Life Seal. Life Caulk works, but has a longer drying time (Polysulfide). Either are more tolerant of irregularities in the deck surface than the butyl tape.
Thanks for the input Dave. That's the direction I was leaning, unless there was a significant contingent that advised against it. Now I just have to figure out how to pry the old unit off the foredeck. It seems to want to stay where it is. Maybe a bottle jack pushing from underneath will help... :shock:
I assume that the old bedding compound is unknown. Antibond 2015 is universal in removing not only 5200, but almost any other urethane or polysulfide. (This adhesion issue and potential damage to the gel coat, is a reason to consider Life Seal over Life Caulk for an item which may need to be removed for service or replacement)
It is cheaper to buy a debonding agent, than repair the gel coat and deck if the sealant is not releasing.
It is cheaper to buy a debonding agent, than repair the gel coat and deck if the sealant is not releasing.
And, just a thought here... but, I don't really need to seal the windlass to the deck, do I? I mean, so what if water weeps in underneath and drips into the anchor locker? Now, sealing the exposed edges of the deck core itself, that's another matter. I'll definitely be addressing that situation in order to keep the core sound.
Well... I rigged up a heat gun pointing at the old windlass, and in the 3 or 4 minutes it took to set up a bottle jack in the anchor locker, the windlass was warm and the sealant was soft enough that I could have just pushed it up by hand. No harm, no foul. Now I just have to clean up the old sealant and get to the business of installing the new unit. And, the deck on the CC is smooth where the windlass mounts, so I don't have any raised non-skid to worry about.
Hmmm... This seems too easy. What am I missing?
Hmmm... This seems too easy. What am I missing?
Its almost a direct swap. The main cut-out is identical, except for the need to make an additional bump-out about the size of half a dime to clear a cast boss in the new unit. And two of the three mounting holes line up correctly. In fact, the new aluminum backing plate has holes for both bolt patterns in it. So, I'll need to drill one hole and use the dremel for about 5 minutes to bolt the unit on. Of course that means I'll have a tiny bit of epoxy work to do to seal the exposed core. But that's not too bad. Hopefully I'll have it done tonight.
Here's a comparison between the new backing plate that came with the v700 (top) and the old backing plate that was installed with the S400 (bottom).
And this is the new backing plate sitting on top of the old one. You can see the 'bump-out' in the new plate, as well as the additional bolt hole I'll need to drill.
If I didn't have to drill a new hole, I'd seriously consider just cutting the boss off of the new windlass so that I wouldn't have to do any work to the deck at all. (The boss really doesn't need to be as long as it is... I don't know why Lewmar cast it like that in the first place.)
And this is the new backing plate sitting on top of the old one. You can see the 'bump-out' in the new plate, as well as the additional bolt hole I'll need to drill.
If I didn't have to drill a new hole, I'd seriously consider just cutting the boss off of the new windlass so that I wouldn't have to do any work to the deck at all. (The boss really doesn't need to be as long as it is... I don't know why Lewmar cast it like that in the first place.)
journey on
New member
Her's where you can order Debond.
First Hamilton Marine @ $21 plus postage.
Or, West Marine @ $38 plus tax.
Either place gets you DEBOND 2000 AEROSOL 12 OZ MARINE FORMULA REMOVER.
Boris
First Hamilton Marine @ $21 plus postage.
Or, West Marine @ $38 plus tax.
Either place gets you DEBOND 2000 AEROSOL 12 OZ MARINE FORMULA REMOVER.
Boris
tsturm - I don't know if the existing bedding/sealer was 5200 or not. But, a bit of heat certainly did the trick. I'll be keeping that de-bonding method in my tool bag for sure.
Boris - Thanks for the info on ordering debonder. Maybe next time I have a quick project I'll have had the foresight to have some on hand...
Here's a quick update: At this point, I've drilled the new bolt hole, cut the 'bump-out', and removed all the old sealer. (It appears that the same material that was used as bedding was also used to seal the existing bolt holes and exposed deck core for the cut-out.) It was pretty easy to remove the sealer using a Dremel and sanding drum. During this process, I also undercut the core a bit. Then I sealed all the newly exposed core with some neat epoxy. I used a Q-Tip dipped in epoxy to get good coverage inside the bolt holes, and a toothbrush to 'scrub' the neat epoxy into the exposed balsa around the big hole. After a bit, I mixed up a batch of epoxy thickened to almost a peanut butter consistency with microfibers, and used a syringe to inject it into the bolt holes. I then used that same material to fill the undercut edge of the big hole.
Here's a couple of helpful hints regarding the methods I used: I stuck some blue painter's tape on the underside of the hole(s) to prevent any drips into the anchor locker. And, since it's cold here (about 25F), I put an electric heater in the anchor locker to warm the deck and help cure the epoxy. Also, when not actively working on the project, I used a 5-gallon bucket turned up-side down over the hole to help keep the heat I was generating in the anchor locker from just blowing away through the windlass hole. It worked well, and was a lot easier than trying to rig up a tarp to work under/in. Plus, there was less space to have to heat.
At this point, I'm waiting for the epoxy to cure to the 'green' stage so I can re-drill the bolt holes and clean up any errant epoxy around the big hole. Then, I'll just drop the new windlass into the re-worked hole (properly bedded, of course), snug down the bolts, and connect the wiring. For now (since I'm trying to get this done before I head out on the water on Monday), I'll probably just use the existing high-current switch, simply because that's the way the old windlass was wired (and it's an accepted installation method according to the instructions for the new V700). But, since the new unit came with a low-current switch and contactor, I'll eventually re-wire the system using those components. If the weather isn't cooperating, and it looks like I won't get out on Monday, I'll probably just install the new switching components and be done with it.
Almost done!
Boris - Thanks for the info on ordering debonder. Maybe next time I have a quick project I'll have had the foresight to have some on hand...
Here's a quick update: At this point, I've drilled the new bolt hole, cut the 'bump-out', and removed all the old sealer. (It appears that the same material that was used as bedding was also used to seal the existing bolt holes and exposed deck core for the cut-out.) It was pretty easy to remove the sealer using a Dremel and sanding drum. During this process, I also undercut the core a bit. Then I sealed all the newly exposed core with some neat epoxy. I used a Q-Tip dipped in epoxy to get good coverage inside the bolt holes, and a toothbrush to 'scrub' the neat epoxy into the exposed balsa around the big hole. After a bit, I mixed up a batch of epoxy thickened to almost a peanut butter consistency with microfibers, and used a syringe to inject it into the bolt holes. I then used that same material to fill the undercut edge of the big hole.
Here's a couple of helpful hints regarding the methods I used: I stuck some blue painter's tape on the underside of the hole(s) to prevent any drips into the anchor locker. And, since it's cold here (about 25F), I put an electric heater in the anchor locker to warm the deck and help cure the epoxy. Also, when not actively working on the project, I used a 5-gallon bucket turned up-side down over the hole to help keep the heat I was generating in the anchor locker from just blowing away through the windlass hole. It worked well, and was a lot easier than trying to rig up a tarp to work under/in. Plus, there was less space to have to heat.
At this point, I'm waiting for the epoxy to cure to the 'green' stage so I can re-drill the bolt holes and clean up any errant epoxy around the big hole. Then, I'll just drop the new windlass into the re-worked hole (properly bedded, of course), snug down the bolts, and connect the wiring. For now (since I'm trying to get this done before I head out on the water on Monday), I'll probably just use the existing high-current switch, simply because that's the way the old windlass was wired (and it's an accepted installation method according to the instructions for the new V700). But, since the new unit came with a low-current switch and contactor, I'll eventually re-wire the system using those components. If the weather isn't cooperating, and it looks like I won't get out on Monday, I'll probably just install the new switching components and be done with it.
Almost done!
Sounds like you're cranking right along :thup
I'm curious about this part, because, while I clean up, chisel flat, etc. when in the green stage, I usually wait until it's mostly cured to drill new holes. I mean, not fully cured necessarily, but past the green stage. Thinking though, maybe it makes less dust your way - more like cutting hard cheese.
Sunbeam
AK Angler":vzqkg2u7 said:
I'm curious about this part, because, while I clean up, chisel flat, etc. when in the green stage, I usually wait until it's mostly cured to drill new holes. I mean, not fully cured necessarily, but past the green stage. Thinking though, maybe it makes less dust your way - more like cutting hard cheese.
Sunbeam
Sunbeam - You're spot on with your description of the green epoxy being like hard cheese. And - in my opinion - I'd say that there is at least some benefit to drilling holes for through-bolts while the epoxy is still green. There is (as you mentioned) significantly less dust created by the drill, and it does make the drilling fast and easy, so I am able to move on to the next step in the installation sooner. Plus, there's less chance of the drill bit 'wandering' like it might on the hard surface of cured epoxy. Still, since green epoxy has very little strength, you don't want to fully tighten the bolts, or apply any significant load, before it fully cures.
Also, if your fastener of choice happens to be a screw instead of a bolt (like may be needed in a blind hole), you can drill a pilot hole the same size as the 'core' of the screw (the shank?), and the threads will easily embed into the green epoxy. So, it's kind of like molding threads, instead of having to force the screw to cut threads, which can be problematic in a thick plug of fully cured (and very hard) epoxy.
Anyway, it's certainly not necessary, and may not be appropriate for all situations, but finishing the machining operations while the epoxy is still green has its place.
Also, if your fastener of choice happens to be a screw instead of a bolt (like may be needed in a blind hole), you can drill a pilot hole the same size as the 'core' of the screw (the shank?), and the threads will easily embed into the green epoxy. So, it's kind of like molding threads, instead of having to force the screw to cut threads, which can be problematic in a thick plug of fully cured (and very hard) epoxy.
Anyway, it's certainly not necessary, and may not be appropriate for all situations, but finishing the machining operations while the epoxy is still green has its place.
AK Angler":158usrnx said:
I'll have to give that a whirl. I've typically either set waxed (tapered) screws into wet epoxy, or tapped or drilled cured epoxy (the latter two most often). But I can see a place for the "cheese cutting" way with a tapered screw - going to keep that in mind. Always something new to learn :thup
AstoriaDave
New member
I have used this trick numerous times on epoxy which is very slightly green, aka not fully cured, but also not tacky to the touch, for drilling and tapping. If you try it on really green epoxy, it really fouls the drill, and tapping finer threads is hopeless.
Takes careful timing, but works great!
Another tip. If the epoxy plug is thick enough, a bottoming tap run into a pilot hole which does not penetrate the plug will give you a hole that will not leak through, ever. Shorter bolt, and the usual sealant or bedding still required, to prevent frost wedging.
Takes careful timing, but works great!
Another tip. If the epoxy plug is thick enough, a bottoming tap run into a pilot hole which does not penetrate the plug will give you a hole that will not leak through, ever. Shorter bolt, and the usual sealant or bedding still required, to prevent frost wedging.
Thataway-- you are a perfectionist in your methods and instructions for all penetration into the transom or deck fittings and oversize drilling-routing out the core, filling with epoxy and then drilling to the appropriate size etc. is unquestionably the best method. However, how many have had dealer installed motors and many deck accessories installed in their get it done at a cost the consumer is prepared to pay methods (1-step)? That is drill caulk and bolt using of course the best available caulking compounds available. And, having said that - how many within the the warrant period have found a problem with this method? Further, I installed an outboard on my C-Dory using the dealer method in 1990. Then last year I pulled that motor and had the dealer install a new (to me) 50HP Honda and - you guessed it -they just drilled, caulked and bolted it on without the many hours for a 2 step process which at a $100/ hour I am not willing to pay. Further, the original motor's bolt holes showed no signs of water penetration.thataway":wa7bibz2 said:
So I wonder if the science and development of marine caulking compounds, applied in the right manner, have not changed the necessity of the old 2-step methods. Further, I wonder if we aren't going beyond the current dealer and factory 1-step, to a 2 step method because we have the time and it makes us feel good? Just asking??
Blueback":30iuhnvt said:
Blueback,
You addressed Thataway, but I hope you don't mind an additional response -- my opinion and experience.
First of all, you are correct. The vast majority of builders and dealers simply use a bedding compound to "seal" penetrations into core. Some shops - many semi-custom and custom - do close out the core with thickened epoxy, or by laying in solid glass to begin with. This takes more time, and so costs more. The general public is not necessarily aware of the need/advantages, and no-one really is looking to pay more for a boat, so this doesn't change quickly or with everyone.
I do think it is important. Likely that's because I've spent countless agonizing hours removing and replacing saturated deck core, almost exclusively caused by leaks that got past bedded fittings. I've also seen many otherwise great boats consigned to the "out back" area at yards where boats go to die. Often this was because leaks had caused deck core problems, and, if one is going to have a yard repair them, it can get very expensive (labor). Hence many older boats aren't "worth it" and they go out to pasture.
Having decided I was past my re-coring days (I sure hope, anyway), I made sure my C-Dory was 99% dry when I bought it (had been stored indoors). But I immediately set about eliminating that 1%, plus prophylactically closing out the core on other penetrations. I know myself, and I couldn't relax using my boat otherwise. Also, as annoying/time consuming as it is to do this, it's twenty times harder/more time-consuming/more expensive to correct problems than it is to deal with it before hand.
Now, does that mean every cored boat (including every C-dory) is about to become soaked? No, not at all. First of all, it takes time. Secondly, there is some luck involved. Some only-bedded hardware lasts longer than others. Thirdly, there is usage. If one's boat is stored indoors or under cover, and then one takes it out ten times a year for a week (or a month), it doesn't really get a chance to have a problem. No water (or water for a short time period) means no leaks and no damage. Also, the more/harder a boat is used makes a difference. Boats "work" and flex some when underway (or trailering), especially when in rougher conditions. This is going to be more likely to "loosen" a place that is only bedded, not closed out, and potentially cause a leak.
I don't believe that any advances in sealants or bedding compounds have overcome this problem (or necessarily could, given the givens). In fact, ironically, some of the "older" compounds are still very good, and some would argue that they are superior than newer ones. For example, polysulfide and butyl. (Also all compounds have strengths and weaknesses and are better or worse for specific situations.)
That's how I see it anyway. Luckily in the boating world it is still basically up to each boat owner to proceed as they see fit, and for the most part no-one else need agree.
Sunbeam