Anchoring My Head

J

John S

New member
We noticed the head was kind of loose this summer. You kind of rocked around a bit while seated.

Recently I went to tighten the bolts holding it down and found the holes were stripped. They were stainless lag bolts that appeared to go into a wood core.

So.......what are my choices for a fix? There doesn't seem to be a moisture problem in this area.

Thanks,
 
If it is a good wooden base, then you have two choices: one is to drill out the holes just slightly bigger than the threads of the lag bolts and fill them with epoxy and medium density filler.

The other is to use larger lag bolts. (if the base of the head can tolerate the larger size thread bolt).

Consider 4200 sealant.
 
thataway":rmy99csm said:
If it is a good wooden base, then you have two choices: one is to drill out the holes just slightly bigger than the threads of the lag bolts and fill them with epoxy and medium density filler.

The other is to use larger lag bolts. (if the base of the head can tolerate the larger size thread bolt).

Consider 4200 sealant.
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Bob, can you help on the "medum density filler" I'm not sure exactly what that is. I searched it in Google and I pretty much got referred back to posts with your reference to it. :)

Any particular reason to use 4200 rather than 5200 is that is what I have on hand?

Thanks for your advice
 
You may want to drill out the old hole then insert a brass or stainless flush shell, then bolt into the flush shell.
Big Dave.
Raven Dancer.
 
Filler would be something like silica fibers or wood flour for example. It's something that makes the fiberglass resin more rigid. You usually use these fillers to create a paste consistency before application.

In my experience, the general rule of thumb is 5200 below the water line, 4200 above the water line. 5200 is extremely difficult to remove should you ever need to service that area again.

Bob would know more for sure.
 
The 5200 is more difficult to remove, and that is the reason I would go with 4200. (Both are fine under water). I made an assumption that the head base was ceramic--but it it was plastic, I might consider Boatlife Lifecaulk, because of the interaction with 5200 and plastics.

I use a combination of Fumed Silica (cabosil) or West Systes 406, which is an excellent thickening and strength forming agent, along with either microlite (410) or low density--microballoons--(407) filler. If you want more stenth use 403 --microfibers--filler. With the various fillers, you can mix the density and strength you want:
http://www.westsystem.com/ click on "fillers" Also when there click on "addatives"--(there are aluminum, barrier coat and graphite additatives which can be useful in some circumstances).

There are course threaded inserts which can be screwed into wood or glass and these work very well, with bolts. For the most part, I like to re-inforce glass if I use these, and the bolts are a bit smaller than I might like to use for bolting down a head base. Making up the filler is the easiest for me--but I have a shelf of fillers and various epoxies and hardners on the shelf--and it is right there.
 
With 4200 you can remove the head for service without as much trouble in the future.....with 5200 you can "CUT" the floor out to remove the head for future service....Both can be used below or above the waterline.
 
I'm not real familiar with expoxy and fillers, so.......if I drill out the holes and use epoxy and filler should I assume I will then drill a hole into the filler and just tighen my old stainless lag screws into the hole making threads as I go?

I have no epoxy or filler on the shelf at all. I'm starting out fresh and just want to buy what I need to complete a lasting job at a minimum expense.

Bob, can you give me the short list of what you think I need for this job without any (or not many) choices. I read your post above, I need the short list.

The head is plastic, under the fiberglass is definitely a wood core. I will cetainly look at putting in oversize lag bolts but I don't think this will be posssilbe.

Correction I just remembered I do have some of this stuff below, but I don't think I'd get a lag screw thru it once it had cured.
Thanks for being patient with me and holding my hand thru this seemingly easy project.
WhtGray-2-oz.jpg
 
John,

What you will need...,acetone,epoxy, hardener and filler. (marine tex will work fine)

step 1. clean old holes and area with acetone.

step 2. mix epoxy...John epoxy is very easy to use if you follow a few simple rules. You must mix well. Stir for approx 1 minute.Then add filler until you get approx peanut butter consistency. Epoxy is very hard to mix if it's cold. I keep my epoxy in a broken fridge with just a light bulb on to keep the epoxy warm. I also use tongue depressors for mixing and applying. I buy little plastic bowls to mix in.

Don't let fillers confuse you. Fillers can be just about anything.The denser the filler the stronger and harder to sand. Ask the marine store for an appropriate filler. If you use the marine tex than no filler required.

Fill the holes as tidy as you can to prevent having to sand too much. You can also tape saran wrap over the repair to prevent the epoxy or marine tex from running until it hardens.

You should wear gloves when using epoxy. I have a box of thin plastic disposable surgical type gloves.

good luck

Jim
 
Ryder,

Once the hole is filled with a hardened epoxy how do I go about reattaching my marine head to it???

Thanks for reviving this thread, I had put this project on a back burner when the responses dried up.

Thanks,
John
 
Once the hole is filled with a hardened epoxy how do I go about reattaching my marine head to it???
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John..What you have when the epoxy has hardened is basically a blank slate. You can drill new holes the same size as the old ones. Then just caulk with 4200 or equivalent and tighten your bolts and voila, you are done.

regards
Jim
 
Sorry I missed your question earlier.

The Marine Tex is fine. you want to drill out the new epoxy plugs with a bit which is the same size as the shank (the solid metal between the threads). This may be slightly tapered--and you can actually drill a slightly larger hole for the outer portion.

Epoxy in general. Ryder has written excellent advice. If you want epoxy for general repairs, a quart is fine, and the small container of hardner. You need the pump set for West System. I use it because I have gotten used to it. There are several 1: 1 by volume ratio systems, which may be easier to use. For a thickner, Cabosil (fumed silica) is the best. I use medium density filler with it. But if you are going to be putting lag bolts into it, you can use microlight.

I have also waxed bolts, and embeded them in the epoxy while it was going off. Those threads seemed to hold up well. The wax keeps the metal from adhering to the epoxy. Also you can wrap a single layer of either teflon tape around threads or a layer of plastic wrap (Saran) around lag bolt threads.

I use popsicle sticks--1000 in a box at Hobby lobby--but used to use tongue blades when I was in practice. You can split either to make a tooth pick size wooden spatchula. I also like to have a couple of plastic spreaders. There are also "release films"--but the saran wrap works fine.

I prefer to use a pumice containing citrus hand cleaner for cleaning hands and tools. A gallon with a pump lasts a long time. I also like to use the blue Nitrile gloves. They are easier on your skin than the latex, and are much stronger. Buy a box at a time. Also good to keep on the boat, for any dirty work, and pumping a head etc.
 
Maybe I'm just kind of dumb but.............


The toilet is held down with self tapping lag bolts. Doesn't the epoxy get too hard to tap a lag bolt into it???

Or does the filler soften up the epoxy mix and make it give to a self tapping bolt?

Sorry I'm not getting it yet, but I want too :)

John
 
The toilet is held down with self tapping lag bolts. Doesn't the epoxy get too hard to tap a lag bolt into it???

Or does the filler soften up the epoxy mix and make it give to a self tapping bolt?
Click to expand...

John..You can drill into epoxy just like you would fiber glass. However I would use a drill bit slightly smaller than the lag screw to drill a pilot hole. The best way to drill into fiberglass or epoxy is to put a piece of masking tape down 1st. That will prevent any cracking and give you a nice clean hole. I hope this makes sense to you.

regards

Jim
 
Bob, I would assume my last post didn't make sense to you after all the bolt embedding advice you had given.

But.......if you look at the time posted you'll see we posted about 5 minutes apart from each other and I hadn't seen your post before I published mine.

Kind of interesting.

THANK YOU to Jim and Bob for resurrecting this thread. I now feel like I can tackle this project. (Although I'm still not sure I understand why I need the filler instead of just using the epoxy, I will look for some filler though)

Thanks again,
John
 
Threaded-inserts Molded_In_Insert.thumb.jpg are one way of securing your head. Drill out the holes oversize. Bed the inserts into thickened epoxy(ala Dr. Bob). Secure with stainless machine screws.
 
(Although I'm still not sure I understand why I need the filler instead of just using the epoxy, I will look for some filler though)
Click to expand...


John..if you worked with epoxy you would understand. Let me explain. Epoxy is very thin. Its almost like a liquid that would just pour out. When you mix it with filler it thickens and becomes easy to shape. Imagine a hole in your door. Now try and fill it with water. Of course the water drains out. Now try and fill the hole with peanut butter. The peanut butter will allow you to patch the hole without draining out. That is the main reason for fillers. A secondary reason is fillers also strengthen the epoxy. Dense fillers are hard to sand but stronger. However remember epoxy by itself is more than strong enough for what you want. But if you don't put filler in it you wont be able to control the flow of it. Thats why we told you to put filler in.

I hope i am clear enough in my explanation. I apologize if it sounds confusing.

regards
Jim
 
John,

The nature of the filler gives the final epoxy repair different characteristics. If you tried putting a lag screw into pure epoxy with no filler, it would probably split, shatter, or break off your screw. Unlike wood, pure epoxy does not have the plasticity to allow compression like wood fibers do. I guess a poor example would be that you'd have a hard time putting a lag screw into a hole in a metal block - the metal won't compress to allow the threads to grab 'hold.

The fillers allow sandability, workability and enough compression for screw insertion if the fillers are compressible themselves. My guess is that what you have can take screws. If nothing else, epoxy glue a block of strong wood in place!

John
 
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