Anchor Locker Drain

[Bad Boy]

Harvey,

I addressed this previously on boat on a previous thread. Check out my pictures on Cat Fever for the modification. Basically, I drilled down through the hull on my Tomcat. Also built up the locker with epoxy to drain it towards the new hole.

The previous drain holes to each side locker were plugged and also enclosed both sides of the rode locker above so that no moist air could get into the storage lockers on either side. This makes it a useable locker for clothing = no mildew smell.

I don't know if you can use this modification on your cruiser.

 

[Capital Sea]

My post should have read plastic not spastic. The material I used was a little thicker than the white board material, but both should hold up for ever. I am told that these materials do not bond 100% with epoxy and this is why I dis a total overlay after the board was secured in place.
Best of luck to you.

 

[eNORMous]

I'm sometimes dumbfounded by what I read. I mean, did the previous C-Dory ownership not have a final inspection "check list" to review before they sent vessels out the door? Argh. Sending some boats out w/ anchor drain holes, and others without, fiddles installed, some not, venting etc.

Argh, I mean a bloody check list.

Maybe we should create a check list, and post it on our site.

Final inspection check list before you accept ownership of the vessel.

Hopefully Fluid will get this together. These types of things are just so easy to catch w/ a simple checklist (if someone reads it). :sad

 

[hardee]

SeaWolf Joe said:

"there's always a lot of salt in the rope, and that's also probably where the white crust came from."

and I agree after doing some more checking. It looks like salt and there are places on the chain where there is some pretty heavy crusting too, but it looks like saltwater, or salt from the rode and water from a leak that is still to be determined where, but it appears to be spotty and probably where the chain was laying close to the bottom of the rode, with water (wet towel soaking it up). Will be watching this for some clarification as we get into the season.

Thank for all the great ideas.

Harvey
SleepyC
:moon

 

[Sunbeam]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have a photo (or can anyone point me to an existing photo) of the void in the anchor locker?

My anchor locker came to me with the ~1/2" hole in the port/after corner, and a clamshell on the outside. The one problem I could see right off the bat was that the hole was an inch or so above the bottom of the locker. I removed the clamshell to take a closer look at the hole -- I had read here about "older" 22's having some sort of liner/void that would make the locker hole drain into the area under the v-berth without a special tube (or fiberglass, etc). lining the hole.

So, I was expecting to find this "void" condition on my boat. Instead what I found was the aforementioned hole, which appears to go through solid fiberglass of around 1/2" thick and into the locker. I didn't see any void or any liner (?). One thing I could imagine, was that if the tabbing for the locker floor or bulkhead was sloppy, that there could be a void(s) in the tabbing and if the hole went through that area, could leak "south."

I went ahead and got a slightly larger clamshell and decided to drill a new hole further down and aft, so that it would be at/near the bottom of the locker for good drainage. The new clamshell will cover the old clamshell screw holes*, and also the old drain hole (in addition to the new one). Yes, I spent quite a bit of time measuring inside and out before drilling! I then started with a very small drill bit so that I would have room for adjustment if it was not in the best spot (you can measure but it's hard to be SURE until you see the hole there from both sides). Next I used a slightly larger bit - just big enough to allow my rat-tail file to fit in. From there I enlarged the hole to ~1/2" (the rat-tail allowed me to enlarge it in the directions that I wanted to, vs. a larger drill bit just continually centering it).

In the new hole I also see only solid fiberglass and no gap or discernable evidence of a liner. So I think I'm good to chamfer the new hole, coat the inside of it with epoxy, and then install the new clamshell. But I still wonder what the liner/gap is or if I'm missing something obvious? I can see where there would be a problem if someone drilled aft of the anchor-locker divider bulkhead, or under the anchor locker bottom; but it sounded like people were referring to something else. I'd like to see what they mean.

Sunbeam :hot

*To expand on that: I'm re-using the forward fastener hole for the forward fastener on the new clamshell. The other two old fastener holes will be hidden under the flange of the new clamshell. So I will fill them with thickened epoxy before installing the new clamshell. The old drain hole will be concealed beneath the "bulge" of the new clamshell (along with the new one), so I think I'll just leave it open for more drainage/ventilation (I would have filled it with thickened epoxy otherwise).

 

[Robert H. Wilkinson]

Sunbeam, my Stingray had the same thing as you described. The drain in the anchor locker was about an inch or more above the bottom. This left a triangular shaped void . To prevent water from collecting there, I made sure it was clean and dry, then pushed a short length of 1/2" garden hose into the hole. I gave it a light coating of oil and left it sticking out into the locker a couple of inches. I then filled the void up to the level of the bottom of the hole with fiberglass resin. After it was dry I pulled the piece of hose out and faired the edge of the hole smooth. The hole between the locker and the clamshell appeared to be going through solid fiberglass.

Regards, Rob

 

[Chris]

Sunbeam...if the drain hole was drilled too low...it would create an opening to the area under the locker floor before it penetrated the hull. Thus...water would drain under the locker...inside the hull and accumulate under the hull liner. Poor quality control at the factory.
The fix was to install a tube to carry the drain over the void and through the hull.
Another cause for water in the hull was the brass stem guard screw holes drilled too deep and poorly sealed...or not sealed at all. Again...poor quality control at the factory.

 

[Sunbeam]

Sunbeam...if the drain hole was drilled too low...it would create an opening to the area under the locker floor before it penetrated the hull. Thus...water would drain under the locker...inside the hull and accumulate under the hull liner.

Okay, I can see how that would be - thanks for the explanation. Mine was apparently "overcompensated" for and was a good inch above the bottom of the locker (thus no liner issue). On the other hand, I had no desire for an inch of potentially salty/sludgy/water to constantly sit in there, so I drilled a new hole that's right at the bottom. A slightly larger clamshell made it a relatively easy task.

Another cause for water in the hull was the brass stem guard screw holes drilled too deep and poorly sealed...or not sealed at all.

I had read about that one here (great source of info, this forum is!) and checked mine, but the fasteners all ended in solid glass.

Again, poor quality control at the factory.

Although I got lucky on these two issues (not that one should need luck), I have seen quite a few things that fit that category, or lack of knowledge/care. I had expected it though (from research prior to buying); so while I still feel free to curse as I'm getting these things squared away :wink, at least I was prepared to find them. I still bought a C-Dory because I like what they can do - a lot! - and there aren't many other boats that fulfill the same function on the used market (while looking good, too :thup). (Not to mention that this sort of thing is not uncommon on other boats either.) And luckily "small boats, small problems" has applied, at least so far. But yeah, on a lot of the things I'm fixing, it sure would have been easier to do it right the first time than for someone (me) to change them now :cry

I get a feeling Triton is a lot better in this regard... which is a good thing!

Thanks again,
Sunbeam :hot

 

[DaveS]

Sunbeam...if the drain hole was drilled too low...it would create an opening to the area under the locker floor before it penetrated the hull. Thus...water would drain under the locker...inside the hull and accumulate under the hull liner.

Okay, I can see how that would be - thanks for the explanation. Mine was apparently "overcompensated" for and was a good inch above the bottom of the locker (thus no liner issue). On the other hand, I had no desire for an inch of potentially salty/sludgy/water to constantly sit in there, so I drilled a new hole that's right at the bottom. A slightly larger clamshell made it a relatively easy task.
Sunbeam :hot

Sunbeam, more than likely the water intrusion was not so much from the anchor locker, but from the hole to the exterior of the vessel (under the clam shell). Any water entering there would go directly to the floor under the v-berth as there was no patent path from the anchor locker to the exterior hull. Unfortunately, too late advice for you, but the much easier fix was something similar to what I did and recorded that information on a thread about this problem years ago.
My solution was to thread a short length of medical oxygen supply tubing (which happens to be the perfect fit for both of of the factory drilled holes) from the anchor locker through both holes and to the outside, it is hidden from view by the clamshell. I then sealed around the tubing at its' point of contact with the two holes.
As far as blame to a factory, "Sea Shift" was one of the C-Dorys manufactured in the old plant in Kent. (Just prior to the move to Auburn).

Anyone that owned a Harley Davidson from the late 60's to the early 70's know that they had to put locktite on every nut and bolt to keep it from rattling loose, even if the Harley was brand new off the factory floor..... :disgust (Doesn't mean that is right, but that's the facts!)

 

[Sunbeam]

Hi Dave,

Your boat is one of my favorites. I just love the red, the canvas color, the engines...all of it. If I could clone one existing 22 for my own boat, I think it would be Sea Shift :thup

My boat was made in Kent too, which is something I wanted, if possible. However, I realized that would be no guarantee of anything (it was more because there are some features on the "older" boats that I prefer), so I looked for one that had been used as little as possible and stored indoors. I knew in advance that I'd want to be improving the core protection, and I wanted a good chance of not having to do too much re-coring (BTDT on other boats :cry)

Anyway, I don't think your solution would have worked for me (unless I am misunderstanding it, which is entirely possible), and what I did was actually not very hard. Let me see if I can explain better than I did before:

1) The hole through the topsides of my boat was through solid fiberglass only, right from the inside of the boat to the outside. I could see the whole hole. So there was no chance for "interleakage" from what I could see.

2) However, said hole was 1" above the bottom of the anchor locker. So while it would drain just fine to a point, it could also leave 1" of water/mud/salt in the bottom of the locker. My boat's anchor locker had never been used, from what I can see, and the boat was stored indoors, so this had not happened... yet. But I plan to anchor as often as I can, so if my anchor locker is going to have a drain, I want it to drain the whole locker, not just the top 7/8 of it.

I had considered a nice solution I had seen on C-Brats, which was to use a tank vent in the hole, which has a spigot to line the hole; but after looking more closely at my particular boat, I could see that wouldn't have helped since the problem was just that the hole was too high, not that there was an internal gap that needed bridging.

Thus I obtained a slightly larger clamshell (matches the old one but about 50% larger), and I mocked it up in place to see what it would "allow" me to do (without any extra cosmetic hassle). As it turned out, I could not only cover up the original hole, and two of the original clamshell fastener holes (I'm using the third one over again), but I could make a new hole at the bottom of the locker, and that hole would also be within the new clamshell.

So that's what I did. I am reusing the "apex" fastener hole on the new clamshell. One of the disused ones will be under the flange of the new clamshell, so I have filled that with thickened epoxy; and the third one was subsumed by the new drain hole.

The new drain hole also only goes through solid fiberglass. So I will chamfer the new hole, then coat the inside with neat epoxy just to "extra" seal it (although the fiberglass already looks well wetted out from the original construction, with no dry fibers or etc.). After that I will drill two new holes for the new clamshell fasteners, chamfer them slightly, and then bed and fasten the new clamshell in place.

Originally I had figured I'd be filling the original drain hole with thickened epoxy, but as it falls under the "dome" of the new clamshell, I realized there would be no need, as all it can really do is drain the locker faster if there is more water in it. Since they are both small, machined holes, there is no structural worry.

But I still wanted to understand what other people were experiencing with the "liner," to make sure I wasn't missing something.

I hope I explained more clearly this time. I sometimes worry about being too wordy, for fear of sending people running and screaming, so I cut back -- but then maybe it's not worth it as it makes things harder to understand. I think I will start a thread for my boat, and then I'll put in some photos which will probably be worth 1,000 words Having just removed the transom drain tube (which was one of my #1 "I've got to dig into this" items), I'm extra-motivated.

Thanks for your input, and again, love your boat :thup

Sunbeam :hot

 

[DaveS]

Hi Dave,
1) The hole through the topsides of my boat was through solid fiberglass only, right from the inside of the boat to the outside. I could see the whole hole. So there was no chance for "interleakage" from what I could see.

2) However, said hole was 1" above the bottom of the anchor locker. So while it would drain just fine to a point, it could also leave 1" of water/mud/salt in the bottom of the locker. My boat's anchor locker had never been used, from what I can see, and the boat was stored indoors, so this had not happened... yet. But I plan to anchor as often as I can, so if my anchor locker is going to have a drain, I want it to drain the whole locker, not just the top 7/8 of it.
Sunbeam :hot

Thank you Sunbeam for your kind words about "Sea Shift". I totally agree with you about wanting to drain all of the water left in the bottom of the anchor locker and it sounds as if you have accomplished that.
If I am understanding you correctly, I am interested that you indicate that there was not a chance for leakage from the outside of your hull (clamshell at waterline) to a space that would provide water access under the v-berth. Perhaps our vessels were constructed differently in that area.

 

[Sunbeam]

If I am understanding you correctly, I am interested that you indicate that there was not a chance for leakage from the outside of your hull (clamshell at waterline) to a space that would provide water access under the v-berth. Perhaps our vessels were constructed differently in that area.

Well that's what I was trying to figure out by posting in this thread. I had read previous thread(s) on the topic, so I knew this was a possibility when I "dug into" my anchor locker. But then from looking at it, I don't see what people mean; however I realize that maybe I'm not seeing something.

From reading, I was expecting some sort of liner or double hull inside the anchor locker. Now maybe there is something like that there, but it just doesn't look like the type of thing I'm used to seeing as a liner.

What I can see, inside the locker, is the inside of the hull, coming back in a V-shape from the bow (I can see the "lapstrakes" from the outside repeated on the inside). It's the "wrong side" of the fiberglass layup, like you would expect (the "right side" being the gelcoat on the outside of the boat). Then there is a bottom to the anchor locker. It appears to be a flat fiberglass platform that is tabbed in to the hull; and then there is a short (partial) bulkhead separating the anchor locker from the V-berth. That bulkhead is gelcoated on the after side, and the "wrong side" is in the anchor locker. That is also tabbed into the boat and to the bottom of the locker.

The drainage hole was a ~1/2" hole right through the hull side, coming into the locker about 1" off the locker-bottom, and about 1" ahead of the partial after bulkhead. The hull *does* look thick there (I'll have to measure, but maybe 5/8"?), and I tried to see if it was actually two thinner pieces of glass bonded together (like if there were a liner), which can sometimes look like one piece and which could conceivably leak. I can't see anything like that for sure though, and from looking at the inside hull sides, I can't see why or how it would be a liner. (Usually a liner would have gelcoat facing in, so the "wrong" side of the liner and the "wrong" side of the hull would be bonded together, with the two "right" sides showing.)

But maybe if I understood better how it (or other boats) were constructed I would change my thoughts. I'd definitely like to know before I close this modification up, because if there were any gap I would take care of it (differently than I will handle it if there isn't).

Sunbeam

 

[rogerbum]

Do the lower screws on the clamshell penetrate the hull into the space below the anchor locker? Perhaps that's what Dave is talking about.

 

[Sunbeam]

Do the lower screws on the clamshell penetrate the hull into the space below the anchor locker? Perhaps that's what Dave is talking about.

No, I don't think so - or at least not on my 22 - for two reasons:

1) the screws are less than half as long as the hull is thick (unless, as I was wondering about, the hull is "secretly" two different fiberglass layups bonded together.

2) All three of of the holes, if they had penetrated the hull, would have been inside the anchor locker, above the locker bottom.

Sunbeam

PS: I could take photos and post them, but not until tomorrow as my camera flash has given up the ghost, and it's too dark now.

 

[Sunbeam]

I took some photos of my 22 Cruiser's anchor locker today, and I think I see what can happen. I wrote explanations right on the photos (which are below in this post), but I'll add additional explanatory text here.

When two fiberglass (or fiberglass-covered) pieces are joined together - say a bulkhead to a hull at a right angle - they are often "tabbed." What this means is that the two surfaces are sanded back for a few inches, and then strips of resin-wetted fiberglass are laminated in place as a joiner. Kind of like "taping" sheet rock, but with fiberglass. After this is done, the two surfaces (fiberglass strip and bulkhead or hull) more-or-less become one, and are usually slightly thicker as a result.

Ideally, the bonds are strong, perfect, continuous primary (chemical) bonds, but in the real world perfection is rare. So sometimes the bond between the "tab" and the hull (or bulkhead are not perfect). There may be a gap or pocket in places.

On the anchor locker, there isn't a liner, per se (at least not on my 2002), but the locker bottom and the partial bulkhead that divides the locker from the v-berth are both tabbed in. This tabbing extends up/forward from the bottom/bulkhead for a few inches, which means that it extends over the area where the anchor-locker drain hole is.

So, if there happens to be an imperfection/gap/air pocket in the tabbing bond that goes from the locker floor to the inside of the hull side (this would not be unusual), and it happens to be right where the drain hole is and extends all the way down, well, you now have a path for water to get below the anchor-locker bottom and under the v-berth flat (which is a liner module).

My original anchor-locker drain hole did not have any gap/imperfection where the hull and tabbing came together, but it was too high to drain the locker well. So I drilled a new, lower hole. This too did not have any really obvious imperfection, but upon close inspection (macro photo), I can see what just might be one. It doesn't look as though it goes deep enough to cause a gap/leak, but just to be sure I will seal it (with epoxy resin and maybe a bit of cloth or maybe just colloidial silica, depending on how it looks when I prep it). It's entirely possible that the drain hole on other boats could happen to hit a bigger gap/imperfection in the tabbing bond.

I was thrown off by the term "liner," as I think of that as being a (typically) gelcoated module that is bonded in to the hull and provides a "finished" inside surface, such as the V-berth flat. So I was looking for something like that in the anchor locker and didn't see it (on my boat anyway). It may exist on other 22's.

Sunbeam :hot

 

[Sunbeam]

I've finished with the anchor-locker drain hole(s), so I thought I'd post a follow-up. Also, I see that the photos I had in my last post are no longer linked - I organized my album without realizing that would "break" the links to my photos... oops At any rate, they are in my album in a sub-folder called anchor-locker drain if anyone would like to look at them.

So, after I figured out where the potential path was for water to get below the bottom of the anchor locker (through any existing gap between the tabbing and the hull side), I took a close look at both the original and the new holes for draining my anchor locker. I could see where the two different layers existed, but they looked tight and well bonded (that's not to say all the tabbing on my or any boat is like that everywhere, as slight gaps are not unusual; but the area right where the holes were drilled on my boat looked good). Still, the idea of water getting beneath the v-berth was so unappealing that I decided to make doubly sure.

To that end I prepped the holes and coated them with neat epoxy, then added thickened epoxy (colloidial silica), and shaped it for a smooth transition. I had originally planned to fill the upper (original) hole with thickened epoxy, but since it's also going to be hidden by the clamshell I decided that more drainage couldn't hurt. It could always be filled later if I change my mind. (If there had been an actual crack or gap between the tabbing and the hull side then I might have chosen to reinforce it with cloth as well.)

Here is how the holes look now. I tried to make enough notes to orient you, since by the time I zoomed in enough to really show it, there were not many orienting features left in the photo. Note that the new hole is still ever so slightly above the locker bottom; this is because on the outside I wanted to keep the clamshell solidly on a strake vs. partially hanging over a strake line.



Sunbeam :hot

 

[Larry H]

Excellent diagnosis and repair!

The problems with the anchor locker drain leaking into the under-berth area and the stem band screws leaking was an intermittent one. These problems were most likely caused by inexperienced factory workers. The stem leak was traced to a worker using a drill bit without a stop. The anchor locker drain could have been as Sunbeam says; drilling the hole thru a tab that was not totally bonded.