Alcohol vs Wallas for heating & cooking

rogerbum · Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:40 pm Post subject:

Just an aside Dr. John - much of the carbon that gets put into a plant comes from CO2 drawn from the air and not from the soil. Much of the N comes from the soil (and N containing fertilizers). When we grow crops which fix N (like soy) we can replenish some of the N by drawing it again from the air. To me, the bigger concerns with bio fuels are:

1) Increasing the cost of food crops and
2) The marginal gain in energy relative to all the energy that went into producing it. There's not a tremendous gain in most cases (except for the farmers who get subsidized for producing the fuel).

DaveS · Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:13 am Post subject:

Dora~Jean · Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:15 am Post subject:

The Wallas 1300 Heater seems to use considerably less startup current. I measured 5.0 amps for 2 min 30 sec then it drops to 0.4 amps during operation, 2 small fans - one in the combustion chamber and one for the forced air output.

I found this in an ad for Klean-Heat, could be talking about either Kerosene or Klean-Heat: "Kerosene and synthetic kerosene (now sold under the name "Klean-Heat") is available at or through most hardware stores and home centers including: Home Depot, Lowe's, American Eagle, Coast to Coast, Ace, True-Value, HWI Do-It Centers, and Wal-Mart." I got mine at the Home Depot in Oxnard, CA, very seasonal though.

Researched several sources on the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet), wasn't helpful to learn the chemical composition. It does have a flash point of 142 deg F, which is considerably higher than regular Kerosene (101 deg).

Gratitude

Thanks to all for your contributions.

Jim

ffheap · Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:20 am Post subject:

Hi Folks,

Comment on Alcohol Stoves.

There is a big difference between a pressure and a non-pressure alcohol stove.

I had a Perko pressure alcohol stove in a sailboat years ago. I woke up early and in order to heat up the cabin, I lit the pressurized alcohol stove, put a brick on it, opened ports, and went back to sleep. When I awoke later, I didn't notice the flame had gone out. I relit the stove and had a nice boat fire going. I took the firextinguisher out and put the fire out. Immediately, I could not breath. The firextinguisher took all the oxygen out of the air. (I had already moved my wife and kids to the cockpit.) Big lesson.

I now have a single burner Origo non-pressurized stove. It is very safe. All the alcohol is contained within the stove. If the flame goes out,there is no leak. If you use it to much, things get wet, but boating on a small boat is a compromise.

Fred

dotnmarty · Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:45 am Post subject:

Dora~Jean · Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:38 am Post subject:

Fred, yep, been there done that too! I think the pressured alcohol stoves are responsible for a vast number (if not the majority) of boat fires. I had a double burner (Kenyon I believe) on a 21 ft Reinell cruiser. You pressurized it by hand pumping, then the key was to turn it on and squeak 'just' the right amount of raw alcohol into the round tray under the burner, then turn it off. Then you light the tray, flames shoot up about 1-2 ft, then after the generator got hot you'd turn on the gas and it hopefully stayed lit. Back then curtains were the rage, and yep, those flames caught the curtains on fire one morning, put them out with the fire extinquisher, scared the begeezus out of me. Never owned one since, and to this day I still don't like curtains... Shocked

Sea Wolf · Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject:

Dora~Jean wrote:
Fred, yep, been there done that too! I think the pressured alcohol stoves are responsible for a vast number (if not the majority) of boat fires. I had a double burner (Kenyon I believe) on a 21 ft Reinell cruiser. You pressurized it by hand pumping, then the key was to turn it on and squeak 'just' the right amount of raw alcohol into the round tray under the burner, then turn it off. Then you light the tray, flames shoot up about 1-2 ft, then after the generator got hot you'd turn on the gas and it hopefully stayed lit. Back then curtains were the rage, and yep, those flames caught the curtains on fire one morning, put them out with the fire extinquisher, scared the begeezus out of me. Never owned one since, and to this day I still don't like curtains...

Steve-

I have one of those Kenyon 120 VAC / pressurized alcohol stoves in my Sea Ray.

It's a pretty scary device when you take it apart and see how it's constructed.

The alcohol tank is a copper cylinder with a pump attached and all of this is right under the big electric heating element, separated only by a baffle or two.

Might look like a good bomb design to some!

The former owner of my boat found it so scary he cut the electric supply wire (although he didn't bother to cover either of the new ends of the cut wire!!!)

Kenyon's made a ~million of these stoves, so for the most part they must be usable in a safe mode, but one still has to be very careful! I don't find them available new anymore, although parts are still readily available.

The trend is away from pressurized to non-pressurized alcohol stoves, and to propane as well.

I've got a whole gallon of alcohol under my forward dinette seat. Probably ought to remove it, and place it in my dock box for safety in case the can fails.

Could have enough to use, if needed, in a single small can.

The screw-top metal cans that Berryman B-12 Chemtool Carburetor and Fuel Injector Cleaner comes in are great containers to put solvents such as alcohol, laquer thinner, and paint thinner in to keep small amounts around for cleaning purposes.

They're very strong and safe, much more so than gallon containers.

I keep such things in a baby-blue pained military foot locker on the dock, which also serves as a foot step for boat entry. A 2 inch hole in it provides ventilation so any fumes don't accumulate.

Joe.

ffheap · Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject:

Joe,

I haven't seen alcohol in metal cans for twenty years.

Fred

Sea Wolf · Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:31 pm Post subject:

journey on · Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:49 pm Post subject:

Hey, Sea Wolf, what's a ditto machine? Remember how you used to cut and scrape the master? Tell me things haven't improved. Now with only a keystroke we can delete our misteaks. Which are underlined for us.

This must be the only users group where one person asks " what's the difference between alcohol and Wallis?" and 5 pages later the discussion is still going on.

Boris

thataway · Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:26 pm Post subject:

For what it is worth both methyl and isopropal alcholol are available in plastic containers (see your local drug stores, hardware stores and Wal-mart).

As Dr John, we also own a farm--I suspect that he does the same as we do--we rotate Soy Beans and Corn (as Roger--notes the Soy is nitrogen fixing)--With good crop rotation, and best management practices soil in farms can be sustained--but there is considerable cost to raising crops--various chemicals, have to be spread on the soil as well as insectisides and herbacides. No free lunch here--and if a further comment on the "cost" of biomass fuel is needed in the other thread, I will be happy to make it.

ffheap · Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:43 am Post subject:

Hi Folks,

I buy industrial alcohol from hardware stores in plastic bottles.

Maybe it still comes in cans, but I haven't seen any lately. I would rather plastic that any rustion metal.

Fred

Not For Hire · Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:51 pm Post subject:

I promised some pictures and some more info. Well here are some bad pictures, however, you can get double your money back if you complain.

This shows Wallas 1300 installed on cabinet wall under sink. See Dora Jean’s album for good photos and write up by Steve.

In my 22 I mounted 1300 inside cabinet behind helm seat. There is a three inch duct with warm air to white plastic register. The two way stainless pipe is covered in the fiberglass insulation sleeve in these pictures. The water hose tubes never touch the stainless pipe although it may look that way. I put in two pieces of galvanized sheet metal on the underside of the cabinet top where the stainless pipe came close to the top and also where it came close to the many wires I have running below the countertop.

The heater is meant to burn kerosene or paraffin according to the manual and according to Scan Marine’s notes in the manual. I have been using Klean Heat kerosene which is a nice clear kerosene in one gallon bottles. Next year I may switch to the regular Klean Heat. There is no odor with the kerosene. It uses very little fuel.

This is a picture of the Wallas on-off switch on my dash.

Picture of vent at upper forward end of galley where warm air comes out.

I put a plastic surround around the water pump bellows to encourage cool air to flow through the duct further aft. Some air will also enter the galley behind helm seat where the wiring is. This air is only to supply the room air that is heated. The combustion air comes through the outer tube in the double stainless pipe (direct vent style) and the hot exhaust air flows to the outside through the inner tube of that double pipe.

Next to the “cold air return vent” near the deck is a red led light, one of two I installed.

Regards,

Mark

Pat Anderson · Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject:

Add to this discussion the dislocation in the price of barley (needed for malt for beer) caused by the corn planting craze for ethanol. Barley plantings that have gone over to corn are a major contributor to the increase in the cost of your beer in 2008, that plus a worldwide hop crisis that have caused the price of hops to increase 2x - 4x.