Wallas Nordic DT vs. 95

brevity

New member
Merry Christmas, friends!

Brevity's Wallas 95du is at Scan Marine for what is turning out to be a pretty expensive service trip (needs a new main board), and I've been looking at other possible paths.

Can anyone here comment on the reliability of the newer Wallas stoves (the Nordic DT and/or the 85) vs the older 95?

I'm considering these paths:

* Pay the $$$ repair for our 95
* Upgrade to a Nordic DT for $$$$
* Switch to propane (and figure out how to shoehorn an ABYC-compliant propane system into the lazarette/engine well)

I appreciate any advice!
 
In 2012, during our first one month of a three month Southeast Alaska cruise our Wallas 95 went down, leaving us with a very similar decision to yours now. I felt the best choice then was a new Wallas 85 & we have had no reasons for regretting it since. In the next two months of that cruise we ran it for 784 trouble free hours & this spring with another long Southeast Alaska cruise planned will be hoping for the the same. The first two long cruises with the Wallas 95 in 2003 & 2004 were the only trouble free ones we made with it. It let us down during the next three extended cruises in 2007, 2010 & 2012 even though the maintenance was performed. During the decision making process of replacing it in 2012 we were told by Scan Marine that the Wallas 85 was much improved over the 95 for the rigors of an extended cruise such as we were then on & had been doing in the previous years & hoped to continue in the future.

Jay
 
If you get to the propane point (which you may not), I can say that I have looked into converting my port lazarette to an ABYC-compliant propane locker, and it seems quite doable. I would want to implement the excellent "bottom extension" that SEA3PO shows in his album (very slick), as it gives room for a larger tank(s). I measured on my boat and the vent line from the bottom of the extended lazarette bottom to the through hull would still be correct (just).

I have still not decided myself (I removed the Wallas 95 in favor of a separate, dedicated cooker and heater). My favorite propane heater, the P9000 is a bit awkward/bulky for my taste in the 22 in the various possible locations, and also it is not easy to "stockpile" propane on something like a longer/remote trip (whereas you can always lay in 30 gallons of Kleen Heat should you choose to). Also, I have become spoiled by all the stowage space in that lazarette!

I think it's unlikely that a problem would ensue with a lazarette installed propane tank, but by my reading (IIRC) it doesn't quite meet ABYC standards (because of the lip height/separation between splashwell and cockpit). Too, I use that space for kicker on one side and swim-step access on the other. It's always a stack of dominoes in planning, isn't it? :D

I'm leaning toward a Wallas 1300 heater (which is going to be discontinued) or one of the other small heater models they have, but so far have been using a Coleman Blackcat type heater (carefully, in calm/anchored conditions and only while awake and attended and ventilated). It's been fine for taking the chill off morning and evening in a dry place, but wouldn't work for me for underway or in more serious chill/damp (say Inside Passage early/north).

I do really like propane for heating and cooking, so I'm still waffling - haven't been on the sort of trip that has required a decision yet. Will have to see how it turns out :)
 
brevity":i0qa8qaz said:
Merry Christmas, friends!

Brevity's Wallas 95du is at Scan Marine for what is turning out to be a pretty expensive service trip (needs a new main board), and I've been looking at other possible paths.

Can anyone here comment on the reliability of the newer Wallas stoves (the Nordic DT and/or the 85) vs the older 95?

I'm considering these paths:

* Pay the $$$ repair for our 95
* Upgrade to a Nordic DT for $$$$
* Switch to propane (and figure out how to shoehorn an ABYC-compliant propane system into the lazarette/engine well)

I appreciate any advice!


I up graded from the 95 to the latest & greatest Nordic DT last winter & have not been disappointed :wink: The 95 had thousands of hours on it with zero trouble. Right up to the no lite, smoke, raw fuel in the exhaust etc. b/s started. :roll:
Good luck with your choices. :thup
 
Thanks for the great thoughts so far - I really appreciate it.

If I do wind up going the propane route (which is tempting - we have a separate Webasto heater to keep the cabin warm) I believe that a certain amount of construction would be necessary to safely carry propane. Brevity is a 25, and neither aft locker appears to be sealed or vented.

One possibility I came up with was a waterproof box in the engine well, with a drain hose going over the transom. The box would hold a couple of disposable propane bottles and a regulator, and would be sufficiently isolated from the boat to meet ABYC guidelines.

On the one hand, it would be great to have a stove that worked well and heated up really fast. On the other hand, it's probably a lot of work to install it. Oh, the indecision!
 
We upgraded from a 95 to the Nordic Dt about a year ago and are happy with the new unit. Besides more heat output, I like that it uses diesel so I don't have to carry yet another fuel. Just fill the tank when we're getting gas.

But more than that is the thermostat mode - we use that a LOT! Once put in that mode the unit will lower the fan speed and reduce the heat output when necessary. Note that it does not turn the unit off, just way down. At a low level the unit is very efficient and it's quite enough that we've even left it running all night (yes we have a CO detector).

Of course it still has the beloved sensitivity to low voltage on start-up but overall it's a terrific upgrade.
 
I installed the Dickinson Newport Fireplace P9000 a couple of years ago. Look at the pics in the my "heater" album.

Some of the reasons I went with it were cost, simplicity/reliability, ease of install, space savings and safety. Note that I am using the disposable 1lb. bottles, mounted in the splash well, outside the hull. A 1 lb. bottle will run 5 hrs. on high and 7 hrs. on low setting. The way we use it in the mornings and evenings, a canister usually lasts a few days and can be replaced easily, even if underway. It does not require power but the built in 12v fan does distribute heat faster.

If cost and space savings were not a factor, I would sure consider an Espar.
 
williwaw, thanks for the vote of confidence in the Nordic DT. It really sounds like a more reliable stove than the earlier model.

kennharriet, your propane install looks beautifully simple! Have you had any issues with survey, insurance, or ABYC compliance with the bottles mounted back in the splashwell? I had imagined something similar, but enclosed in a watertight box with a vent that drained overboard via a hose or something.

Thank you!
 
I have not had a surveyor look at the install or has our insurance provider. I did study the ABYC regulations prior to installion and believe that it meets requirements. I originally considered modifying a lazerette for a propane locker but elected to mount the bottle in the splash well to avoid the locker requirement.

We also have a Magma propane BBQ that I believe meets the requirements the same way as it is used exterior of the hull.

I am certainly not an expert so others please chime in. I am confident that it is safe as long as basic safety practices with propane use are employed.
 
I too mounted my tank in the splash well to keep it simple and preserve the port lazarette for other uses (such as a livewell built into it).

Mine's a simple regular 5-gallon painted tank, but all kinds of sizes, shapes, and materials (Aluminum, stainless, fiberglass) are available.

A refillable 5 gallon tank is quite a bit more economical than umpteen (20?) disposable tanks, too.

Storage inside the lazarette would look better, but gets complicated with the ventilation requirements.

Many commercial boats with propane have the tanks mounted on their cabin roofs!

For me, the KISS Principle won out! YMMV!

IM003309.jpg

****************NOTE TO ALL GUESTS ABOARD:*****************

*****THE TOP OF THE PROPANE TANK IS NOT AN ASHTRAY!*****

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
I think diesel heaters are cheaper and to operate and more expensive to buy than a propane type. Some say about moisture issues when using propane but I have no personal experience. Because of all the fuss about Wallis issues on this site, although some say they have never had a problem. A lot of people seemed to and parts were expensive as reported for the Wallis units i.e. circuit boards etc.. I must say it always seemed Scan Marine provided excellent customer service for the Wallas units but you paid for it. All things considered we opted for an Espar D-2 and it has been trouble free and heats our boat up nicely even with the back door open to include the cockpit area when the camper back is installed. Many other C-Brats have opted for the Espar or Webasco diesel units and have reported to be happy with their performance.
I would not probably opt to buy an item that was to be discontinued but that's just me.
. The unit which was a truck type kit was about a thousand dollars and we had to buy a through hull for the exhaust and a fuel tank etc.. Since we removed the refridge that came with the boat it required a new door and hardware for the gapping hole the refridge door used to fill. We probably have about two thousand dollars invested for the complete install. New Wallas units were around three thousand so we opted for the Espar being cheaper and a more powerful heater. We wanted to avoid having to use the Wallas cook top for summer cooking. We opted for an induction cooking set up and a grill for cooking. I will say our Espar D-2 had the sound of a small jet engine when running at full tilt. We just use when we are up as our boat is insulated and we have our berth set up so we don't need any heat there. A gallon of diesel can last quite a while. But everyone has their own idea of what is right for them. Replacing your Wallas with a newer version of a Wallas would probably would be the easiest installation wise. Good luck with your search.
D.D.
 
Just bringing this thread back to life as I'm considering the option of retrofitting my simple butane stove to a Wallas heater/stove combination unit. I've done some quick research, but see there are several units to chose from. Since I currently only have one burner now, I can live with a one burner replacement. Just wondering if anyone has recently installed a new Wallas stove, and what recommendations are out there for those just looking. Thanks. Colby
 
Hey Colby....just installed a new Wallas stove/heater this summer on our 2012 23 Venture that we purchased this spring.

Had the old version on our 2004 22 cruiser...used it from 2005 to 2014 with no issues (figure I was lucky on that).

Really love the new one and the 3 fellows I talked with a Scan Marine were superb at answering all my questions and clarifying all the new features.

We used it for 2 weeks on our Princess Louisa, Gulf and San Juan islands trip this summer and recently at Beacon Rock and another location on the Columbia river.

Has ran perfectly and seems good on diesel fuel usage. Did smoke on me one time coming out of Genoa bay but I was banging into some pretty rough water so just shut it down.

Seems like shut downs are quicker than the old stove which I like.

Hope that helps and good luck with your decision...

John
 
Thanks John. I'm looking at the Wallas 800, which is the one burner. I have the original one burner KISS stove in my boat now, and we have done just fine with only having one burner. My only concern is how much additional space under the cabinet the Wallas needs, and how long the fuel tank will go without needing a refil. Colby
 
Hi again John. Which Wallas unit did you get? I just spoke to the folks at Scan Marine, and really sounds like the Nordic DT is the better unit. I also didn't catch that the 800 is kerosene. I like the idea of using diesel fuel instead. However, the price for the Nordic is going to be close to $3K by the time I add tax & shipping. That's a bit much I think, but realize it is what it is. The guy I spoke to said most the C-Dory's had the 95's, which is now replaced by the Nordic, and it is a very good unit. He did say some did get the 800's. I should have taken some time at the last C-Dory gathering in Alton this past September, to see if anyone had this unit and how it looked and worked. I could just look at a heater only, but we do use our little stove quite a bit when we are on longer cruises. And while the KISS stove has worked good for us, I could see the Wallas being more efficient. Colby
 
Ok, well now I'm completely confused in what I want. :roll: After reading up more on the wallas stoves, I'm not sure I would really want it. See it takes about 10 minutes to get started. (With my butane stove, I just turn it on and it's ready to use.) But that still leaves me with wanting a heater. Took a bit more reading to realize that the Wallas 1300 is just off and on. Ie, no thermostat. I'm not sure that would be ideal either. (I'd like to be able to set a comfortable sleeping temperature, and not have to keep waking up to turn the heater back on or off...)

Anyway, some more questions if anyone can answer:

- Regarding the 1300, Is there any kind of thermostat switch that could fit in line with the on/off switch to automatically switch the unit on and off?
- How well does this unit heat? Ie, if it's freezing outside, how warm will it keep the boat? (22 ft Cruiser, just cabin and berth.)
- The Nordic DT advertises that it also helps keep the cabin dry, by exhausting the air overboard. Since I assume that means fresh air is coming in from the outside, and that air off the lake is going to be humid, I question just how much drier the cabin air will be? (I understand propane will actually place more moisture in the air, but I'm curious if those that have the Wallis units notice a dryer cabin with their use?


Any recommendations of other heaters out there? Thanks Colby
Colby
 
Hi Colby...we have the Nordic DT and I'm proud to say I installed it myself.

Took way more hours than average bear but I made it through...had to jigsaw the whole larger after removing the one burner butane stove.

It does something similar to a thermostat...once you put it in this mode you and set the dial at 12 noon and that is about 68 degrees they say....if you open the door it will increase fuel and fan speed...then once you close the door and it catches up in heating the space and reduces fuel/fan.

Haven't really used that function but once or twice and can't report on effectiveness. This summer ran it at 1 (out of 6) and that was plenty of heat and we had the v-berth hatch open but it wasn't super cold.

I think for very cold weather it will only do OK and would suggest a ducted heater instead (I'm originally from Montana so I think it is fair to say I know cold).

For a two burner stove and heater combination I personally really like it!

Good luck with your decision!

John
 
Colby,

I hear a lot of my same thoughts echoed in your last post. My boat came with the Wallas 95 - the classic two-burner heater/stove. Many love this, but I knew it would not be my style. I wanted a stove I could just fire right up, and a heater that was just a heater. Wouldn't hurt if one or more of them was simpler, either.

I have gone with a butane stove for now. The function is great, but ultimately I'd prefer a "real" propane stove (I'm more comfortable with a real/installed propane system, than with the quality control of a butane cartridge). For now I just keep the butane cartridges in the port lazarette when the stove is not in use (drains overboard).

The heater is the more complicated decision. I strongly considered the Wallas 1300 and it is still on my list. I don't think they can be changed much (e.g. thermostat), and they cannot be ducted beyond one short hose. They are also maybe not large enough for regular use in freezing temps. OTOH, they are simple, compact, and "cheap" (as Wallases go). I have talked to (or read posts of) a few Brats who have them and really like them (Aurelia, Life of Riley, Dora~Jean). They say if they get too hot, they crack a window or the door.

From my research, the Wallas "purely a heater" models are a bit less persnickety than the combo heater/cookers (makes sense, since the latter are doing two jobs not one).

The slightly larger Wallas 1800 I believe does have a thermostat, and can also have ducts; it's a bit larger, but not a huge amount. I am not sure if it would fit neatly under the galley as the 1300 does. I had measured and calculated at one point, but now I can't remember what I came up with. I ruled out the diesel heaters they have as they are larger/more expensive and with a gas engine, there is not the motivation to stick with "just one fuel" as there would be with a diesel engine/diesel heater.

I thought about something like an Espar, but I don't really like the way they sound (loud) from other boats in an anchorage. I didn't go into that much further though.

I also considered the propane P9000 fireplace. Looks-wise its a winner, and there is no chance of diesel or kerosene smell, obviously. If I have a propane system already (if I put one in for a cooker) then that's already there. OTOH, there isn't a great place to put it. On the counter, the chimney is a bit short of spec (although apparently it works fine), it takes up counter space, and the heat is already halfway to the overhead. I've seen one built in under the galley sink, but that sacrificed that whole side of stowage (plus chimney coming up through counter also).

I thought about a Wave 3 catalytic heater. I have used one in an RV. They are simple to "install," inexpensive, and easy to stow away when not in heating season. The required ventilation can be provided by cracking windows. Still, they are un-vented, and even with cracked windows, who needs more moisture in a C-Dory cabin? They are meant to run from regulated propane, so that's still a propane system.

Another potential negative to any propane fired heater, is that if you go on a long trip (say Inside Passage), there is no way to "stockpile" fuel. You can't suddenly make three times as much propane fit in your propane locker; whereas you *can* load in extra gallons of Kleen Heet or kerosene, etc. This may or may not matter to you.

As with the stove, I decided to take a "temporary" approach while I assessed my options and use of the boat. To that end, started with a "Little Buddy" heater, which runs from the one-pound disposable green propane tanks. Of course NOT used while underway, and carefully watched even at anchor. I used it for an hour or so morning or evening in calm anchorages, but never overnight. It's got an upright form factor (hence can be tippy), so I then switched to a Coleman BlackCat (previous model with a metal triangle frame has a tidier form factor than the current plastic one), which is a similar heater, but designed to sit down more horizontally and hence is more stable (still don't use underway or at night). I keep those cylinders in the vented port lazarette also (including the in-use one when not using heater).

I guess there is no perfect solution, and the P9000 flames would be very nice to look at, but if I had to choose tomorrow, I'd probably go for the Wallas 1300 or 1800. But I may change my mind :D
 
Hello Sunbeam, yes I read many of your thoughts on this earlier. I too had the little buddy, but didn't like how it worked. And as they say, those propane burners just add to the moisture issue. The little electric heater I have works good, but needs shore power to run. I'm very happy with how our little one burner butane stove works, so like they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'm wondering if there might be any little thermostat gadgets out there that one could put in line with the switch on the 1300. That might be the answer for me. I'd really like to have thermostatic control of a heater, so that I'm not waking up all nite long to turn it off or on! I'm not sure, but looks like the 1800 does have a thermostat. Maybe diesel, but I don't remember. I like diesel over kerosene, as it's a safer fuel. The 1300 would probably work fine during the day, as it can just be switched off and on as necessary. I was also looking at the Wabasco (I think that's the name of it...2000?) Ebay had one kit on sale for $880, but not sure what else would need to be purchased. It said everything was there to install, but first thing I noticed was that it did not appear to come with a fuel tank.... Colby
 
Hey Colby the Webasto was one of my favorite contenders early this year...check out their thermostat funtion....just love it.

But I also wanted 2 burners which the Nordic DT gave me.

In all my research I think the Webasto is an excellent choice.

Good luck,

John

P.S. will be anxious to hear what you decide, install and how you like it...
 
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