Reefnets

so here is the big lie in all this. The so called wild salmon?? Now I like how they fish but the lummi hatchery, were these fish are raised, does not mark their fish . So when they return the fish can be sold as Wild Salmon for a higher price. Just smoke and mirrors. Why does this piss me off? because if the state hatcheries produce to many "Hatchery" fish and they spawn in the rivers then its out competing the so called wild fish and they cut the hatchery production.... and you wonder why the fish numbers are not recovering and the orcas are dyeing ( that's another big lie) . Because if the rivers have enough fish then there are a lot of organizations and government bodies that will not get money or funding. Not to mention the price of fish will go way down. The only reason we do not have dam near year round fishing is by design.
 
starcrafttom":1ezrjflk said:
so here is the big lie in all this. The so called wild salmon?? Now I like how they fish but the lummi hatchery, were these fish are raised, does not mark their fish . So when they return the fish can be sold as Wild Salmon for a higher price. Just smoke and mirrors. Why does this piss me off? because if the state hatcheries produce to many "Hatchery" fish and they spawn in the rivers then its out competing the so called wild fish and they cut the hatchery production.... and you wonder why the fish numbers are not recovering and the orcas are dyeing ( that's another big lie) . Because if the rivers have enough fish then there are a lot of organizations and government bodies that will not get money or funding. Not to mention the price of fish will go way down. The only reason we do not have dam near year round fishing is by design.
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Hmmm. Well, let me clear a few things up for you.

First, the Lummi reefnet salmon are Fraser River fish not Nooksack River/Lummi Hatchery fish. The reefnets are placed on the west side of Lummi Island specifically to intercept the Fraser runs on a flood tide, and only a flood tide. Take a look at a map and you will see that a Lummi Hatchery fish in a Lummi Island reefnet would be a lost salmon! The Lummi reefnets are called such because they are off Lummi Island, not because they catch Lummi fish. Additionally, As far as I know right now, there are no actual Lummi's with reef net gear off of Lummi Island right now (although there was one group a few years ago).

Second. Lummi Wild, is a group that own some, but not all of the reefnets and they are capturing salmon for a boutique market, akin to the ballyhooed "Copper River" salmon. They call their fish "wild caught," to distinguish them from farmed salmon and do not make distinction between wild caught hatchery fish or wild caught non-hatchery fish. Their distinction is between farmed and non-farmed salmon. Read their web page. I think you are confusing their claims regarding farmed fish with claims about wild-caught salmon (hatchery or not).

Third. Some of the reefnet fish are hatchery and some are non-hatchery fish. Depending upon the regulations at any given time, which change of course, and the species of fish, the can or cannot keep non-hatchery fish. All of the fish are sold to a tender who makes no distinction between the hatchery fish and non-hatchery fish, either in marketing or price.

Fourth, the wild caught salmon (either hatchery or non-hatchery), do command a higher price than pen-raised farmed salmon. I don't have an issue with that and I don't think it's a "big lie." Many people, for many reasons, don't want to eat farmed salmon and are willing to pay more for wild-caught salmon.

Fifth, I'm not really sure where you are going with the State-hatchery conspiracy and the Orca conspiracy, so I'll just leave that one alone.

I'm coming at this as an Salish Sea Oceanographer by trade and an occasional crewman on one of the Lummi Island reefnets (not Lummi Wild gear).
 
I think you mixed a few things but working right now so will respond later. but in short my biggest complaint is that the state and others have convinced a lot of people that their is a difference between wild salmon and hatchery salmon. I never mentioned farmed salmon at all. That's a whole other decision.

Its the use of reduced number of wild salmon to stop recover thru hatchers production that chaps my ass. Like I said I love the reef net idea. I would love to see the old fish traps come back to the rivers. Same as the reef nets where you can selectively release fish you dont want.
 
starcrafttom":352iggjr said:
so here is the big lie in all this. The so called wild salmon?? Now I like how they fish but the lummi hatchery, were these fish are raised, does not mark their fish . So when they return the fish can be sold as Wild Salmon for a higher price. Just smoke and mirrors.
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It seems very clear from your first few sentences that your are under the impression:

1) That Lummi reef-net salmon are coming from the Lummi hatchery. That is not true, they are Fraser River fish.

2) That they (the Reefnetters) are marketing hatchery fish as non-hatchery fish so that they can sell them for a higher price. They not do this. They DO make a distinction between wild caught and farm raised. Wild caught can be either hatchery or non-hatchery...they are all caught in the wild.

3) That this is a big lie, in other words, reefnetters (my friends and occasionally me) are liars. I don't like being called a liar at any time and certainly when it's not to my face and on a public forum.
 
johnr":314gblis said:
3) That this is a big lie, in other words, reefnetters (my friends and occasionally me) are liars. I don't like being called a liar at any time and certainly when it's not to my face and on a public forum.
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Hatchery fish are not wild fish in any way shape or form. Selling Wild Caught Salmon as Wild Salmon is B/S!
:roll: :thup
 
tsturm":22yu906u said:
johnr":22yu906u said:
3) That this is a big lie, in other words, reefnetters (my friends and occasionally me) are liars. I don't like being called a liar at any time and certainly when it's not to my face and on a public forum.
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Hatchery fish are not wild fish in any way shape or form. Selling Wild Caught Salmon as Wild Salmon is B/S!
:roll: :thup
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You won't get any argument from me that wild run salmon are different that hatchery salmon. But, my friend's reef net operation does not make any attempt to market wild caught salmon as wild salmon. They don't market the salmon at all. They just sell the catch to the tender at a ridiculously low price, prices that haven't changed in decades, and it likely ends up at Bellingham Cold Storage.
 
tsturm":1g1vrhl8 said:
johnr":1g1vrhl8 said:
3) That this is a big lie, in other words, reefnetters (my friends and occasionally me) are liars. I don't like being called a liar at any time and certainly when it's not to my face and on a public forum.
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Hatchery fish are not wild fish in any way shape or form. Selling Wild Caught Salmon as Wild Salmon is B/S!
:roll: :thup
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Not trying to stir things up. Just looking for clarity on an interesting subject.

1. Who is claiming that "wild-caught" salmon are "wild" salmon? I don't see anyone saying that hatchery fish are wild. I see one poster saying that it's a lie to say that hatchery fish are wild? Have I missed something?

2. How do commercial fishers distinguish between wild and hatchery fish when they are sold? As I understand it, otolith marking or other forms of tagging hatchery fish are used to distinguish them from wild stock for purposes of fishery management. Is the inspection of caught fish for tagging done on a sampling basis, or is every fish caught checked? Is it practical, or possible, to require that distinction to be made with respect to every salmon caught or sold?
 
NORO LIM":9e1i0x1z said:
tsturm":9e1i0x1z said:
johnr":9e1i0x1z said:
2. How do commercial fishers distinguish between wild and hatchery fish when they are sold? As I understand it, otolith marking or other forms of tagging hatchery fish are used to distinguish them from wild stock for purposes of fishery management. Is the inspection of caught fish for tagging done on a sampling basis, or is every fish caught checked? Is it practical, or possible, to require that distinction to be made with respect to every salmon caught or sold?
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Oh...it's confusing! Generally, and speaking only for the State of Washington, the adipose fin of all hatchery Chinook and Coho are clipped and this is readily observable. Also, typically, non-hatchery wild Chinook must be released. This is one reason why reefnet fishing is considered more "sustainable" compared to some other type of commercial fishing. Reefnet caught fish are relatively unharmed and all are inspected (there just aren't that many Chinook caught), and any non-hatchery Chinook are released. If a Chinook is caught by a gill net or a purse seiner, is it unharmed and released unharmed? Probably not. Chinook are not a target species for a reefnetter. They fish the sockeye, pink, coho and chum runs when allowed.
 
To a recreational sport fisherman, fishing for a hatchery select Coho Salmon for example, a fish missing the adipose fin on the top of the back is considered a hatchery fish. Are we talking the same thing here? Does the fish have a missing and healed adipose fin or is there some other way to determine that this is not a born in the wild fish (non-select)?
 
DayBreak":1lbmasef said:
To a recreational sport fisherman, fishing for a hatchery select Coho Salmon for example, a fish missing the adipose fin on the top of the back is considered a hatchery fish. Are we talking the same thing here? Does the fish have a missing and healed adipose fin or is there some other way to determine that this is not a born in the wild fish (non-select)?
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We are taking the same thing. Missing adipose = hatchery fish.
 
“Wild caught” vs “wild”. Semantics? Or fraudulent representation? :?: A “wild caught” hatchery fish is not a “wild” fish.
 
localboy":79ml7neb said:
“Wild caught” vs “wild”. Semantics? Or fraudulent representation? :?: A “wild caught” hatchery fish is not a “wild” fish.
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Since you are asking, I think that the distinction is completely lost on most consumers of salmon. If a consumer makes any distinction at all, they are thinking of pen-raised, farmed salmon vs. salmon that are not pen-raised. I think this because 2/3 of all salmon consumed in the US is pen-raised, farmed Atlantic Salmon. So, fishers want to make sure that the sophisticated consumer knows that they are buying not buying pen-farmed salmon, because maybe the consumer read an article about the horrors of pen-raised salmon in National Geographic Magazine.

As an analogy...any oyster you eat from the PNW is a non-native*, hatchery, farmed oyster. Do you think that when an oyster farmer sells you a "Hamma Hamma" oyster, he or she is being deceptive? Tricking you into thinking you are buying a wild, native oyster from Hamma Hamma? I think the answer is no because the distinction is lost on almost everyone. There is no intentional deception because it would be pointless, most consumers of oysters don't know enough about oyster farming to think or care one way or the other about it.

*if you try hard, you can find native oysters to buy, but even those are hatchery oysters.
 
johnr":1f92j8a3 said:
If you can't tell, I love talking about this stuff.
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And I'm enjoying learning about it!

BTW: The oyster analogy is a good one. In the caveat emptor world of fraudulent misrepresentations, "wild caught" doesn't even raise an eyebrow. It actually does a fairly decent job on two counts. First, it pretty clearly excludes farmed fish. Second, because it doesn't just say "wild" it gives some implicit notice that it may include more than completely wild fish. "Soy milk," anyone? "Runs like a dream?" "That roof should be good for years?"
 
There aren't any wild salmon anymore. A salmon that climbs a ladder isn't wild anymore than a bear riding a tricycle. Wild salmon would need wild rivers in which to spawn. No culverts, no bridges, no man-made riparian improvements, no cultivated spawning beds. And it would need a wild ocean. No oil spills, sewage, and microplastics. So there are no longer wild salmon. There are only farmed and less farmed salmon. We can close our eyes and call those salmon that man interferes with the least "wild salmon" if it makes us feel better.
 
Marco Flamingo":36555loe said:
There aren't any wild salmon anymore. A salmon that climbs a ladder isn't wild anymore than a bear riding a tricycle. Wild salmon would need wild rivers in which to spawn. No culverts, no bridges, no man-made riparian improvements, no cultivated spawning beds. And it would need a wild ocean. No oil spills, sewage, and microplastics. So there are no longer wild salmon. There are only farmed and less farmed salmon. We can close our eyes and call those salmon that man interferes with the least "wild salmon" if it makes us feel better.
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Excellent point. It is increasingly the case that nearly anything that swims in the sea has ingested man-made microplastics (and possibly PCBs and other toxic chemicals, as well). I don't know that I would trust their word completely, but the fish farmers claim their pen-raised salmon actually have fewer contaminants in their bodies than wild-caught salmon do.
https://www.fishfarmingexpert.com/article/more-microplastic-found-in-wild-salmon-than-farmed/
 
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