PROBLEM ON THE HORIZON - ETHANOL???

F

ffheap

New member
Hi Folks,

I received with my mooring bill a letter explaining that boat owners maybe in for problems because the new gasoline at the pumps will contain a blend of 10% Ethanol and gasoline instead of the MTBE blended gasoline.

The letter goes on to say that:

1. Early symptoms may include engine backfiring and hard ( sluggish ) starting, in which the motor turns over slowly as though the battery were weak. Affected engines also may not reach their rated RPM.

2. Boats with fiberglass fuel tanks built in the 1980's or earlier may develop fuel tank leaks or a breakdown of the fiberglass and other fuel system problems.

3. Ethanol blended gasoline will react with fiberglass materials. It will act as a cleaner, creating particles that can cause fuel system problems, in some cases, it will react with fuel lines and seals causing leaks. ( Most new engines and fuel systems were built to operate properly with this blend of fuel. )

4. Ethanol likes water and will tend to attract water to fuel systems. If water is allowed to remain in the fuel system it will eventually cause the engine to stall and not restart without cleaning the fuel system, including carburetors and fuel injectors.

What does this mean to us.

I talked with a local ( Nantucket ) marine manager and he said that we may not have a worry. None of our boats should have fiberglass fuel tanks. If we use a 10 micron fuel filter, are careful with our fueling, and winterize our engines properly, we should not have any problems.

What do you all think about this. I would love to hear from the West Coast Guys. I understand that you have been living with this problem for a few years.

Fred Heap

PS, Maybe it isn't a problem?[/b]
 
Here in Nebraska, I'm not sure daily life goes on without the 10% ethanol gas due to the corn based economy of the state.

Would sincerely like to know if this fuel can run in my 2005 Honda 75 hp that I take delivery of this weekend. :shock:

Thanks,

Gary R.
 
A few folks in this area with the older fiberglass tanks have already had problems. the engine has to be cleaned out of all old fuel and the tanks replaced. Many of the older glass plys and skagitts had glass tanks that where glassed in under the deck.Now they have to cut the deck to get in and replace the tanks. Gas burns just fine with out any added junk, they should just leave it alone.
 
We have a 1999 c-22 with the twin 18 gallon tanks are they fiberglass or plastic does anyone know .We have a new 2006 90hp suzuki with a fuel /h2o filter .should we worry about ethanol fuel ??
 
jennykatz-

Your plastic tanks are not fiberglass, probably HDPE (high density polyethelene). Alcohol will not harm them. The only problem with the tanks might be with any accumulated water in them if it is large in volume.

If so, the 10 micron filter that they installed with the new Suzuki should stop it from getting to the motor.* Does your filter have a clear bowl on the bottom of it with a drain valve? If so, you can see the water accumulate at the bottom of the gas, and can empty it by opening the valve temporarily.

If the bottom of the filter cannister is solid metal, you can do one of three things: 1) wait until the next service interval at 10 hrs or 100 hrs (or whatever it is with the Zuki) when the service technician will change or empty it, 2) unscrew the cannister yourself and dump it upside down into a clean container after 10-20 hrs of use of the new gas and see if there's any water in it (if little, screw the filter back in place, if a lot of water and particulate matter, replace the filter), and 3) do nothing and hope (not recommended).

You really shouldn't have any problems you can't adjust to with the new gas.

*(Actually, the ethanol makes the water go into solution with it and transports it along through the system, for the most part w/o dropping it out of solution to cause problems, unless it sets around in fuel equipment components that are water sensitive).

Hope this helps!

Joe.
 
Hi Folks,

#4 comment about ethanol is a direct quote from the info I got from the dealer in Nantucket. I shall check it out. Thank you for your comments.

FRed
 
We have had that miserable stuff in California for years.... by law they can put up to 10% into the gas without even telling you...over 10% they have to tell you that the fuel has been "Oxygenated" the only problems we have had in the automotive industry is fuel lines tend to dry out from the alcohol and crack... but of course those are just regular fuel lines...marine fuel lines are not only more expensive but totally flame proof and don't seem to be bothered by the stuff much.
 
On the line in the engine well, I installed a clear automotive type filter so I can make a visual check of the fuel. If anything is getting past the water filter I want to know before it gets into the engine and clogs the engine filter. Already it has paid off, no water, but there is some type of black substance (looks like hose) that it has stopped. Just a 1.89 in/out plastic see-through filter at Discount Auto and a couple hose clamps. I rigged it at a point where it isn't touching anything and bought a few backups in case of breakage, etc.
 
I imagine any type of filter is helpful. I also have a factory-installed Racor fuel/water filter and separator (example: http://lookleap.com/fisheriessupply.com/a2. I like it because it is easy to drain any water in the collection cup. EFI engines do not do well with any water in the fuel. This is because the injector ports (unlike at least some carb jets) are too small to let water pass and this results in clogging/poor performance.
 
I was an Evinrude mechanic and dealer in the 80's and 90's when the alcohol-in-gas problems started in California.

The alcohol was destroying the fuel hoses and the associated water was causing corrosion on some metal parts in the carbs.

Evinrude came out with alcohol resistant hose other rubber parts(o-rings and gaskets) for the carbs.

By now, all rubber parts in outboard fuel systems are alcohol resistant.

Its true that the alcohol mixes with both water and gas to allow the water/gas/alcohol mix to go thru the fuel system. The problem is that if there is enough water and alcohol in the gas the water/alcohol part can separate from the gas and sink to the bottom of the fuel tank where the fuel pickup sends it to the carbs. In a 2-cycle motor, the water/alcohol doesn't mix with the 2-cycle oil and this lack of lubrication can damage rings, cylinder walls, and bearings(they rust)!

A good water separating fuel filter helps a lot.

By the way, Coast Guard regulations FORBID a fuel filter with a drain VALVE on the bottom of the bowl. The Racors with a drain valve are for diesel. A gas filter can have a drain plug, but not a valve.

I would be careful about cutting a fuel line and installing those inline plastic filters. They might cause a restriction which could starve the motor of gas, or they might crack, leak gas, or cause a fire or explosion.

Its best to stick to the manufacturer's filters, or be sure that the filer is a MARINE rated filter.

It's also against CG regs to cut into any fuel line which is under pressure. A pinhole leak can permit the escape of gas vapor and cause an explosion or fire!

Please be very cautious about modifying or replacing any fuel system parts! An error could ruin your whole day!
 
Nancy H: Can you point me in the direction of those CG regs that prohibit gas/water separators/filters from having a drain? Mine was factory-installed. I also note every gas spin on Racor Fisheries Supply carries has a drain. All the spin ons for gas at the Racor (owned by Parker)) web site (http://lookleap.com/parker.com/a1 all have drains.
 
The USCG requires metal bowls... Larry is spot on I think. I'll do a search of my files. USCG boarded and made me change to metal on an I/O...

I'm foggy about outboard requirements (among a whole bunch of other stuff.)

Dusty
 
I think the current regulations are that:

Only metal cannisters are permitted on inboard engines because of the fire danger from a melted or broken plastic bowl in an enclosed space. The cannister can have a plug, not a drain.

Outboard installations may have plastic bowls and drains because the filters/bowls are not enclosed with the motor but out in an open area. The plastic bowl may have a hand operated drain.

Joe.
 
Thanks, sawdust - look forward to what you might find. BTW, the product description for all the filters at the Racor web site state: "Clear contaminant collection bowl with drain valve for outboards". So maybe drains on filters in outboard applications are OK...?
 
Joe could be right, but I can't find the authorization...

33 CFR 183.556 sez:

"(a) a fuel system must not have a fitting for draining fuel.

(b) A plug used to service the fuel filter or strainer must have a tapered pipe thread or be a screw type fitted with a locking device other than a split washer."

Another 33 CFR (forgot :roll:) sez "no petcocks."

I guess that it could depend on location -- in the open okay, maybe -- but sure can't find the authorization.

I'll keep a looking, because it's important to all of us.

Stumped,

Dusty
 
Falco,

I was posting from my memory, I don't have the actual regs handy, but the detail pages in the links you supplied refer to CFR 33 and USCG regs. CFR stands for Code of Federal Regulations.

On the page in your link the details windows say that the metal bowls are for inboard (mounted inside the boat or motor compartment) and the clear bowls(with hand operated drain) are for outboards. I belive that the outboard units must be mounted in the splash well or in the open on open boats. If the clear bowl is in the splashwell and there is a leak, it doesn't go into the bilge, but drains overboard.

I had forgotten that metal bowls are required for inboard gas applications. The big problem is that a diesel filter unit can have a drain valve and people have used them on gas applications. I think that the bowls are interchangeable and that is where people can get into trouble.

Note that there is a difference between a drain PLUG and a drain VALVE. The plug requires tools to open. A valve could be opened by vibration or accident, especially if the valve is a petcock which has a handle at 90 degrees and turns easily.

USCG regs for gas also prohibit withdrawing fuel from a bottom-of-the-tank fitting. No withdrawal fittings or drain plugs are allowed at the bottom of a gasoline tank. All fill and withdrawal fitting must be thru the top of the tank, and there must be an anti-siphon valve at the withdrawal fitting unless all of the fuel hose is above the top of the tank to prevent siphoning in the case of a cut or leaking fuel hose.

Thanks for pointing out the deficiencys in my post. Its difficult to cover everything in detail when discussing technical issues.
 
Dusty,

Do you have a copy of CFR 33? Or did you look it up online?

I would like to be able to look up stuff in CFR 33, but I don't want to spent the $$ for a hard copy.
 
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