Integrated Electronics System

E

El and Bill

New member
There has been an "improvement" in electronics recently -- integrating all displays (chartplotter, sounder, GPS, and radar) on one screen.
In our opinion, this is dangerous. If that screen fails, then everything you need for navigating (except your eyeballs) is gone. In a fog, at night, in a storm -- when you most need navigation electronics -- you have nothing!
 
El and Bill-

Couldn't agree with you more!

I'm sure the integration trend will continue. In fact, some people seem to be enjoying the technical side of this as much as boating itself! The really scary part is that this integration and the development of new navigation systems allows "helmspersons" to become even more dependent on the gadgetry and forget to develop basic navagational skills or even watch the real world through the window! Imagine when all these displays are on a plastic screen directly behind the front window(s) just like a fighter pilots "heads up" display, and the screen goes blank in the fog!

You are now-

A. Lost in the fog.

B. Have your "head in the clouds" again.

C. Up the creek without your (electronic) paddle(s), or any clue at all.

D. Destined to send out a futile cry for help to your electronics hobby web site buddies as the tanker bears down on you.

E. OK, because you REALLY know how to NAVIGATE, have your PAPER CHARTS on hand, and have been paying attention to the REAL WORLD outside the REAL WINDOW.

Have fun pushing those buttons! Joe.
 
Bill,

Good point! I use the C80 and really like it. I also have aboard a compass (actually three), handheld gps/plotter (battery operated), charts, parallel rulers, and whatever is necessary for navigation. I also maintain a brief, but current navigation log so that I can shift to a chart without delay. If I lose the radar I cry - but can get by. And integrated system or not, if it's gone it's gone. Not yet installed is my separate depthsounder (fishfinder) that I like to use in the cockpit, but could be a backup.

Your report on the C80 plotting error is interesting and should be researched. I've cross-checked mine against known positions and find it "spot on" every time. There are several possibilities for error, but all of these electronic gizmos are as accurate as the inputs... most likely a charting error of some kind is the culprit. When researching these things I sometimes find poor antenna installations which drop some of the "birds". The most accurate measurements are from the sats on the horizon, and positioning errors can happen. I'd certainly like a PM from the skipper with the C80 so I can track this down.

Dusty
 
Good Point, I personally love the new systems, and think they are a real step forward. But I'm a real technology type guy and love gadgets of all sorts. As they can have neat things like radar overlay etc... You definatly lose redundancy though. Have alot of people had problems with their electronics not working? I have heard of a case or two but not often, and haven't experienced it myself. I would think if you take good care and remove them from the boat when not in use to keep moisture out they should be fairly trouble free. I have a handheld GPS, compass and charts that stay on the boat just in case. Which seems like enough back up for me. I would also think we will start seeing less and less of the stand alone systems as time goes by. I kind of look on it like, any of the newer motors with computers, you can't work on them yourself like the old carb motors but it is also less likely that you will have to. Whenever you gain something you generally lose something as well. I guess it's just finding the balance that suits your needs and ideas. I would also be curious as to what charter and commercial guys use, as they really put their systems to use/abuse.

Sark
 
I too have been concerned by people using all-in-one navigation devices. :smileo

The best all-in-one navigation device is the mind of the navigator. :teeth

Don't get caught with your head in the display while the real world rock, ship, barge, log, etc wrecks your boat. :embarrased

A magnetic compass and a paper chart can really save your day. :teeth
 
We will have a back-up GPS/Chartplotter which will be almost equal to the C80. With the software from Rose Point and NOAA chartss well as Mapsource and gps puck our laptop will have a screen larger than the C-80. Radar I wil have on the new 25 , but I did fine without it for two years also. Also have paper charts and a compass on board.
 
My C-70 "went out" for a few minutes on my Princess Louisa trip as I was zooming in (on the unit, not with the boat!) to go through a narrow pass. Grabbed the chart and continued through, but was fun! Before last year, I only had a compass and charts. If it goes, I'm back to the "dark ages"! No problem. They are addicting though.
 
Sorry, Bill - integrated nav systems ARE an improvement - but they do require you to have adequate backup (which you would have anyway, right?), which might be a handheld mapping GPS or a GPS-connected laptop with nav software, and of course charts and compass! But if you have the backup, if the integrated system fails, you switch to your backup chartplotter and all you would be missing is the radar - and of course stand alone radar can fail too. The advantages of having the radar targets on-screen and shown relative to boat position and land masses would seem hard to deny - and the downside is really no more dangerous than having separate radar and chartplotter. Just my $0.02 (we ARE allowed to disagree with you, Professor, aren't we? :lol: :wink:)
El and Bill":311ch2n0 said:
There has been an "improvement" in electronics recently -- integrating all displays (chartplotter, sounder, GPS, and radar) on one screen.
In our opinion, this is dangerous. If that screen fails, then everything you need for navigating (except your eyeballs) is gone. In a fog, at night, in a storm -- when you most need navigation electronics -- you have nothing!
Click to expand...
 
Boy, am I glad to hear these comments about old fashioned dead reckoning! We're getting a Garmin 188C on our 22 (production has been pushed back, delivery date now unknown) and I've been rocked by the prices of chips, computer software, etc.

For nearly thirty years of cruising under sail in coastal waters, Great Lakes and the Caribbean it was dead reckoning all the way. I didn't even have a LORAN and the early GPS's were priced in the thousands.

I'm shocked at how many people have no "maps" (their terms). Once I was heading across the Gulf Stream to Bimini when I was approached by a small fishing boat (18' aliuminum 15 hp kicker) and the people wanted me to point them in the direction of the Bahamas. They had a gas station map and no compass! They headed in the right direction as long as I could see them, but they weren't at Bimini when I got there. I still wonder about them. Yes, I thought about piracy and took precautions as they approached.

Question: where are you mounting your compass? My dealer mounts it in front of the center window, but it seems like an awkward location to me. I would prefer right in front of the helm. I know the GPS would probabaly interfer when the unit is on, but not when it is off. Of course, that is when I would need it, when the expensive stuff gives up the ghost.

Commnets?

Nick
Valkyrie
 
Nick,
I asked the same question a few months back. I couldn't find the post using the search function, but as I recall most responses were from folks who didn't have a permanently mounted compass and didn't feel they needed one. All said they carried a small hand held and a back-up GPS. I would really prefer a front and center mounted compass, but on my model the big problem is the windshield wiper motor mounted below and to the left corner of the window. I presently have a gimbal mounted compass hung below the upper shelf which does not offer good visibility from the helm. At present I have nothing mounted on the shelf and the compass performs very well in that location. I am considering remounting the windshield wiper motor to above the window in the upper right corner. I think the geometry would still be right. I would then move the GPS/chartplotter over to the center and move the VHF to the shelf. I think I could then mount the compass right if front of the helm. This would involve a little hassle with wiring, patching holes, etc. but even with the GPS/chartplotter I really like to use my compass as part of the crosscheck while following a GPS course. Without a compass to hold your heading for a minute while the GPS settles in, you will always be S-turning across your course to stay on track. Of course if you also have radar and an auto-pilot with a built-in fluxgate compass, you really don't have to worry about a compass. Maybe.
 
Ken,

Good advice, I'll keep it in mind.

David,

As a teacher, scuba instructor and licensed captain (100 tons in power with a route to St. Thomas) years ago I spent a lot of time in the Bahamas and Caribbean in the summers with dive operations, school ship programs and served for two summers as XO on a 105' barquentine which weighed 25 tons and carried 5200 square feet of sail, teaching Caribbean history and scuba. This was 20 to 30 years ago when drug smuggling/piracy was a very large problem.

More than once we were anchored at night in secluded coves only to have unlighted boats buzz us repearedrepeatedlywas the sign to leave, quickly.

In the mid-80's I singlehanded my 24 foot sailboat from Lake Erie to the Keys, Bahamas and back; it took two years and I was in close proximity with smugglers a number of times. Anchored off the Dry Tortugas one night, in company with another singlehander, from Toronto, we heard go-fast boats and saw no running lights. Standard procedure was to maintain a low profile by turning off anchor and cabin lights. For two hours boats came from the direction of Key West, made quick "visits" to the "shrimp boat" and then headed back toward the Keys.

About six months after that I was sailing in company with a nice, young couple from Chicago who had built a 47' steel ketch. We were anchored off Highbourne Cay in the Exumas, planning to head down to a big annual sailing "party" , races and craziness at St. George in a few days. We had been sailing in company for companionship and protection, although most people didn't like to talk about the latter that way.

Anyway, I was antsy to get going and they were a few days behind on maintenance. I didn't say anything, but they saw the signs and urged me to get going, saying they would catch up in a few days. I left, made it to Georgetown and never saw them again. The VHF later told the story. Their shotgunned bodies washed up on the beach of a small island near Highbourne and their boat was never found, probably used to run a load and then scuttled.

To this day, I wonder if I had stayed if they would have made it or would I not be here to type this long-winded reply to a simple question.

As a result of all of these experiences, and others of fellow cruisers that I personally know, when I have cruised in waters reputed to be used for smuggling I have typically been armed with a short barreled shotgun, believing in the deterrent effect. I firmly believe that discretion is the better part of valor and avoid trouble whenever possible. I just thank God that I have never been in a situation that others have had to face.

Read a book called Sitting Ducks by Betsy Holtzman (sp?) that details the near death experiences that she and her husband had off the island of Bequia. After reading the book, I checked my journal and found that I was anchored 10 miles from them the night that they were attacked. It's an eye opener.

I don't buy into the flare gun argument, especially against multiple attackers and top speed of my Jeanneau sailboat was a screaming 6.5 knots when powered by my Honda with 7.5 raging hp.

Thankfully, things have changed dramatically in this respect in the Bahamas in the last 20 years and it's much safer.

Sorry that this is so long, but your question opened up the flood gates that had been closed for a while. Lake Erie is really much safer, except for the drunken boaters around Put-in-Bay.

Nick
Valkyrie
 
Well, this will be tame next to the previous few posts, but back to the original question...

Here’s one vote in favor of the integrated systems (specifically the C80). I hate clutter at the helm and really don’t like having multiple screens to fool with. I much prefer a single screen, and the C80 has been very reliable so far – of course if it’s going to fail, no doubt it will do so at the most inconvenient time. But with a couple of back-ups that take up little space, it should be easy to manage. We have a handheld GPS (a Garmin) as a back-up, as well as a compass (or two), paper charts, and monitor where we are. If the C80 goes down, shifting to another system doesn’t take much effort. We won’t have a sounder, but can live without it if need be. Won’t have radar either, but this is the first boat I’ve owned that had one. As Pat says, radar/plotter overlays and other things, such as linking the plotter to the autopilot, offer some real advantages.

As far as the Garmin vs Raymarine issue is concerned, I have two Garmins (2006C and GPSMap 76), a Furuno, and a Trimble at work, and the Raymarine C80 on my boat. I’ve used the Garmins and the C80 on the same boat, at the same time, and found no real difference. I like some elements of Garmin’s Bluecharts better than the Navionics and vice versa, but that’s just the mapping conventions and display. As far as accuracy is concerned, I haven’t seen any difference between the two systems or, for that matter, the Furuno and Trimble.

If the set-up isn't done correctly, whether it’s the antenna, the internal datum, or something else, you may get screwy results. Off Apalachicola, I once flipped on the GPS (linked to a laptop with nav software) and found myself in either Louisiana or somewhere equally wrong – a recent software upgrade had changed the default datum and coordinate system without my knowing it, so it didn’t match the chart. If the C-80 is linked to a Pathfinder Smart Heading System, I suspect that an iron pot next to the fluxgate might result in a chartplotter showing your boat moving backwards under some circumstances (as reported in another thread), but I haven’t tried it yet! Will give it a shot some day just to see what happens.

Fortunately, we've never encountered the issues Valkyrie raises and hope not to! Did dive on a downed private aircraft in the Tortugas once, presumed to be a smuggler's plane. And then there was that seized boat we used with the Park Service in the Keys - never could get more than 15 gallons of water into that 55 gallon tank - wonder why?
 
Well! Hasn't this been lively! I don't think there have been smugglers or pirates in the San Juans since Prohibition though...could be wrong about that too of course!
 
Back to the subject at hand. I am a person who does not get lost. I always know what way home is and can always find my way out of the woods, city, and trouble with out any map or compass. I am always looking at where I am going and where I have been. I love maps and can look and study them all night. I will always read maps for new areas before I go there. I take pride in knowing where I am and where the rest of the world is in comparison. With that said I have noticed something weird with many people I fish with. On a clear day, in good weather, they cannot tell me where we are. Even thou they were looking out the window the whole time we were in route, they cannot tell me were home is. Even when we can see it. Do any of you have this problem? I wonder how many people with map and compass can really use them? If you do not know where you are, then you cannot get home with a map and compass. But if I get hit in the head my wife can go to the c-80 and find her way home by following the route function. I keep the compass and map on board, but having the c- 80 is really comforting.
 
Of course, you can disagree, Pat -- But, sorry, the integrated system is NOT an improvement.
Here's why -- you state "The advantages of having the radar targets on-screen and shown relative to boat position and land masses would seem hard to deny - and the downside is really no more dangerous than having separate radar and chartplotter." Well, Pat, my radar shows targets on the radar screen and they are relative to boat position and land masses. My chartplotter shows my position relative to boat position and land masses. My sounder shows my depth, and we have had to navigate by that alone, as have many cruisers in the days before fancy electronics. So, I have three instruments on three separate screens in front of me in my pilot position, any one of which I can navigate with if others fail. Sorry, Pat, that simply isn't the same as one instrument that can fail.
And, as far as integrating the three sets of information, that's our brains do that.
Few C-Dorys we have seen have two mounted chartplotters, or two mounted radars, or two mounted sounders. So instrument redundancy is with handheld GPS or laptops -- every try to navigate with either one in a heavy sea in a C-Dory? -- compared with a mounted instrument?
Yes, we have paper charts and compass aboard, and know how to take a bearing -- used to navigate that way all the time, and it wasn't easy compared with electronic navigating. An inexperienced boater in a fog or night or storm will have a tough time with it, as do most even with long experience.
On our boat, we have a stand alone radar, a stand alone chartplotter, and a stand alone sounder -- THREE electronic instuments, mounted and operating. Either of two will easily get me home, and the third with effort and luck. Yes, we have a compass and charts and we can use them, but under many conditions they aren't easy to use. And, we suspect, new boaters with experience only with an integrated single display, will be in a serious position given a screen failure. Therefore, in our opinion, an integrated system is dangerous. The slight advantage of seeing everything within a six inch rectangle instead of three rectangles is insignificant compared with the danger that could ensue with a failure of that one screen.
An integrated system is, in our opinion, a marketing gimmick with a gizmo. I rest my case, Counsellor.
 
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