Honda 5 as a kicker??

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Valkyrie

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25 Cruiser
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Thanks for all of the replies to my Ordering Saturday! Input? thread.

I've read all of the threads and comments on the twins vs single & kicker dilemma. The dealer says go with a single rather than twins due to less weight and drag.

I really like the idea of having a kicker, but that puts me heavier than with twins, if I go with a Honda 90 and an 8. I also like the idea of using the kicker on an inflatable.

Cutter noted that a Honda 5, at about 6o pounds is what they recommend.

Had anyone treid a 5 as a kicker? Does it have the thrust needed? I saw Red Fox's comments on the Honda 5.

Also, with a kicker, is it always tied in with the main ob? If not, how do you steer on just the kicker.

I, too, don't want to depend on a tow in an emergency. Also, some of the places we will probably use the 22, like the Ottawa River in northern Quebec don't even have such a service and besides, my French stinks!
(In sking for a tow, I would probably tell soemone that his mother married a warthog, or something worse!

Also, a saleperson I talked to yesterday noted that they always use all-chain rode to offset the weight of a Honda 90. Comments?

Thanks for helping a CD 22 newbie!

Nick
 
Another interesting thought that I hit in my state... With me purchasing out of state, I pay sales taxes based on purchase price ...... With twin Honda 90s... at 3.5% sales tax....mixed with the boat... it got large... The lovely little lady behind the counter kind of reminded me that I was actually paying taxes to license the BOAT HULL purchased out of state... I could have saved some bucks...legally, by having a sales recept with the boat and an 8 hp motor... and told them I was setting it up for sailing/trawler type.. Not a great life changing event.... but she sure made me want to snatch my papers out and run...and re-work the sales contracts. Maybe my loss can be someone else's gain...and savings... Kinda makes me go hummmm to purchase kicker and boat.... then buy my twin motors (or single main motor) on another sales slip. If...working out of state.
 
I was considering a dingy last summer. Was thinking that the 5 hp Honda would be about the right size. Talked to a reputable dealer whom I will not name. From those talks I came away with the conclusion that the 5 hp Honda is the motor that Honda most needs to re-engineer. It's heavier than it's competitors and has some issues. I have to say I was disappointed in this one. Looks like they're dragging their feet on a new model.
 
Twin engines are not always a better idea as they have twice the potential to break down leaving you with only one. Unless you strike something just under the water and you'll probably scrap both wheels as they're so close together. Then you have none.

Larger engines usually experience less wear than smaller engines under the same load. Twin 50s will be working "harder" than a single 90 in this respect. And, of course you have to carry two spare wheels, change the oil and adjust the valves in two engines, etc. And try to find some way of keeping them in sync while you're running.

Twins do look yachty!

Trim tabs are a better solution than chain in the bow. Weight in the ends of a boat makes it pitch a lot in any sea.

Finally, it's not necessary to fit an auxillary outboard the first day you own the boat! There are lots of choices you can pick up locally after you've had the boat out several times.

-- Chuck
 
I chose a 5 HP Nissan 2 stroke over the Honda because of weight. The Nissan is about 35- 40 LB, and the Honda is at least 10 lb heavier. I wanted the ability to use it as both as emergency back up Main Propulsion plus on an inflatable dingy.

I've found it is not the best choice for either. It is still heavy to lift from C-Dory to dingy. I'd rather do a 2 - 3 HP smaller engine for the dingy, and the 5 HP doesn't have enough oomph for the 22' cruiser, about 4 kt max.

So you need an 8 -10 HP kicker for a back up, and a smaller lighter 2 -3 HP for an inflatable. I don't think 1 size will fit all. But if you're gonna try the 1 size, go with a 5 HP 2 stroke.

Rick from Maine
 
Chuck nailed this one pretty good, I do believe.

Ditto on the use of dead weight for attitude control. Trim tabs are not a "must have", but then neither are windows in your house.

My 22 came to me with a Honda 75 and a Honda 8. I took the kicker off once, and was not at all pleased with the handling difference of the hull. I put it back on after one short trip. The tabs I put on the22 were Bennett M120 Sport Tabs, and they did a fantastic job in all respects. I think you should insist on hydraulic tabs rather than the Lenco electrics. (I put a set of Lencos on my current boat, and I really regret it.)

One consideration in the trim tab/kicker discussion has to be the clearance between the kicker and the tab on whatever side it's on. I had to fashion an outboard bracket to get everything on my transom. The added plus of the bracket - and it is a huge one - is that by mounting the kicker plumb rather than at the 19º angle of the C-Dory transom you can keep the end of the thing out of the water when cruising. If clamped right to the transom, part of the prop and everything below it drags in the water when on plane. Lots of drag and lots of spray. There is a layout sketch on here somewhere, and a lot of discussion about it, of a bracket that works perfectly for the CD 22. Almost like it was custom designed. However, you would do best to hold off any decisions requiring holes through the boat until you have had it on the water for a season or so.

Kicker? Get the one you like best, hang it on the transom and see what might be needed to improve it overall. The things are not cheap, so your questions and research here is very wise.

Good luck, have fun, and Congratulations!!
 
Chuck and Mike:

Good advise on putting off the purchase of a kicker. Will do.

Nick
 
val. i just picked up my 22 yesterday. it has the honda 90 and tabs. with nothing in the boat put us chickins the tabs brought the bow down just fine. i have never had tabs before but have always used my motor tilt on past boats. most people think that the motor tilt is only for rasinig your motor at the ramp, but you can do a lot more with it then that. when we do get a kicker it will be in the 2 to 5 hp range. i will figure out some way to tie it in to the main motor for trollin. that way the auto pilot will still controll both motors. but it will have to be a quick connect set up so i can use it to power a dinghy. as a back up it will get me out of trouble and in to a cove for repairs. as for the chain . I think that cutter has chain stock sitting in his lock box some where. on a 22ft boat i think that 5 to 10 ft of chain with rode is just fine. my family boated the bay in the mid 70s from a 27ft chris in the middle river area. we only used 10 ft of chain w/ rode and never had a problem.
 
Find a kicker with two cylinders. Pretty sure the Honda 5 is a single piston engine. Generally more vibration and noise for the operator than a twin. Consider currents, winds and tides in your area. They make a small engine work. I went with a 15 that can deal with it all.
 
Hi Nick, I'm still running my original '89 Johnson 70(250#) and 15(77#). Total weight 327#. The 15 trolls great but it wo'nt plane the boat so alot of its horsepower is wasted. I'm convinced an 8 is the best size for an auxiliary/kicker. The Honda website claims its 90 @ 373# and its 8 @ 98#. Total weight 471#. That's alot. Consider that a Yamaha 90 @ 261# and an 8 @ 60# provide the same power(s) yet only weigh 321# total. That means the Honda package is 47% heavier. Just imagine a 150# man permanently perched atop the Yammie. Nevertheless, I'm certain that this board OVERWHELMINGLY prefers the four-stroke for its fuel economy,emissions, and smoothness. These advantages are undeniable. If the places you boat are emission restricted you may not have a conventional 2-stroke option. However, you might consider an Evinrude E-Tec 90. 320# and clean burning. Finally,
Also, with a kicker, is it always tied in with the main ob? If not, how do you steer on just the kicker.
Click to expand...
Check out the original auxiliary steering set-up in Adelines photo album. It was installed by C-Dory but can be found elswhere. Both motors tilt together or independently and the 15 does'nt drag its skeg when tilted up. The link bar also pops right off when I do'nt need it. Straight fuel is drawn from the main tanks which is mixed in an Accumix R to feed the kicker. As you can see, there's alot of ways you might go. Pete
 
Hope that I don't tick off Les or other Honda folks, but if the 5 hp single cylinder Honda was typical of the entire line, you'd never see me around them. I had a new 5 HP Honda about 5-6 years ago, and it was the roughest running engine I've ever had. It also had to be run quite rich to have it keep running. I ultimately traded it off for an older Johnson 6 or 8 HP twin. Perhaps the new 5's are better, but I doubt it. I know the single 4 stroke Mercs aren't that great either. A friend cut down his prop and flattened it so that he could run at higher rpms to troll a little smoother. Go with a twin sir. My new Honda 8 HP is wonderful, however. I would never go for a single cylinder Honda, or anything else. They just run too rough. Might just as well get a 2 or 3 HP 2-stroke. They run much smoother. Probably the 2 or 3 Honda does also, albeit a 4 stroke.
 
Nothing you say about the Honda 5 would tick off Les!!!

Duster
 
Adeline said:
Just imagine a 150# man permanently perched atop the Yammie. Pete
Click to expand...

With a yammie, you might need a 150 # man atop the motor, if he is a mechanic. :lol: The Hondas are bullet proof. I have owned six Honda cars, three motorcycles, two generators, an 8hp outboard and now the 90. I have confidence in the brand. Other motors are reliable, well built machines, but I'm sold on Honda. :thup
 
They are all good now. The dealer and local service make the difference IMO (humble opinion, that is). After thousands of hours on the different brands I'd take any of the new guys. EQ, where I steal a cup of coffee every day, is a dealer for Honda, Evinrude, Nissan, etc., and was a service center for Yamaha. Lots of Hondas out there with over 5000 hours, and I'm sure the same is true for Yamaha. Yamaha has the market in AK, no doubt. Means that they have a great dealer structure.

The weights (don't believe the brochures) are similar for similar displacement engines for either Honda or Yamaha. In some cases one manufacturer will use a larger (heavier, of course) engine to achieve the same horsepower... always read the fine print. Greg and I fun each other, but I'll admit his Yamaha is one of the best motors on the market.

Les is hanging a 90 2-stroke on my 22 right now, and I'll give a full report when we get some time on it... sure looks good on paper. I've had some troubles in the past with Johnson/Evinrude, and also some great service from them. They must get their act together now to complete or leave the market.

As for single vs twin - all depends. If I could cruise the world like El and Bill (color me envious) I'd have twins if one of the twins could get me up on a comfortable plane. For fishing our area I recommend a single with kicker. For me personally, I like a single with no kicker. Takes all kinds, eh? The kicker is expensive, adds weight and complexity, and my cell phone or VHF will get me a tow if necessary any place I fish. Cheap, cheap, cheap... but when I fish I move around quite a bit from one hot spot to the next. Big pain to pull the kicker, start the main, then put the kicker back down. Because I usually fish alone it is much easier to just use the main engine.

Sure missed the gang at the SBS.

Dusty
 
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