70/75 vs. 90hp on 22 Cruiser?

C

Chubby Bunny

New member
My wife and I are considering the 22 Cruiser but I don't know whether to go with a single 70~75hp or 90hp engine (I'm not that interested in twins).

We value ride comfort so I don't want to the boat to be overpowered relative to a "good" cruising speed (i.e., minimal hull pounding) and have fuel economy suffer as a result.

Given that this boat will be used in and around Puget Sound, what speeds do you all cruise in various conditions and would that suggest one engine over the other?
 
Chubby Bunny-

Some facets to consider:

The 22 was designed for a 70 hp engine.

On Puget Sound you will commonly be experiencing chop, waves, wakes, and current conditions that will limit your speed. Sometimes you will have flat water and can make use of the extra hp, but more commonly not.

Most 70/75/90 engines from a manufacturer share the same block and other components, so the engines are the same weight and displacement, only differing in ignition timing and carburetion (or fuel injection).

The CD-22 is usually run at about 14-20 mph in most conditions, and in the slower part of that range as the waves dictate. In flat water, it can do 26-28 mph with a 75 hp engine, or 28-32 with 90 hp.

Displacement speed is from about 2-7 mph, and the boat will plane at 9-10 mph and above. Between 7-10 mph or so is a wasteful wake making area where you're paying in fuel economy for increased drag with a big wake trailing behind the boat, and very little increase in speed.

You sound like your style favors the 70-75 hp range, as you not a hot-rodder, won't be racing anyone, and don't have to outrun waterspouts on Puget Sound (usually).

Welcome to the "club".

Joe.
 
Chubby Bunny,
Based on our own experience last year as first time boat owners with the Puget Sound and San Juans as our main cruising grounds, if you are considering a Suzuki, I would suggest going for the 90 hp. I can only answer for what we went through but we chose the Suzuki DF70 for our 2005 22' Cruiser. What we didn't know is the DF70 and the DF90 are not the same engine, the DF70 is smaller (less displacement). The DF90 is the detuned version of the DF115, which has been described as a "beast" by others on this site. However, the Honda 75 IS the same engine as the Honda 90, just the detuned version. Many of the Honda 75 owners have expressed satisfaction with the 75 hp on their boats, they can better answer regarding their experience.

As for ours, once we got the Suzuki DF70 properly propped, it worked fine, it had an adequate amount of power and did not feel underpowered. However we decided to move up to the DF90 and we are extremely happy we did. This engine is indeed a beast and has power to spare, runs smoothly, always starts and we're very happy with it. It is definitely not overpowered, it feels just right. We only wished we knew then what we know now regarding the engine sizes, tuned and detuned version etc. I must say that the factory was very accomodating to us when we decided to repower so our initial decision was through no fault of theirs but due more to our inexperience and lack of knowledge. So, if you're thinking about a Suzuki, you might want to consider the DF90 or even DF115. If you're considering Honda, Yamaha or Etech, you might want to get the opinions of owners of these fine engines. As others have stated in prior threads, they are all fine motors, it just depends on how you intend to use your boat.

Joe is spot on in terms of speeds under different water conditions. In the San Juans, the water can get quite choppy, 3-6' wind waves to contend with and strong currents. We feel good knowing we have power to spare should we need it.
 
c-dancer

Excellent post! Great review and advice!

I remember discussing this whole issue with you at the time.

Nice hearing from you again.

Joe.
 
Joe, it was actually your great advice that enlightened me to the various engine sizes, displacement, weight, etc. Thanks for sharing your extensive knowledge and wisdom for us newbies :thup

Peter
 
Chubby Bunny I have the Yamaha F75, the same engine block as Sea Wolf Joe's F90, fuel injection and all. I've been totally satisfied with it.

On the very rare occasions when I've been able to operate WOT, the Jenny B hits 30 mph. I use a 13.5 X 15 prop. Torque curves from Yamaha gives Joe the edge at high RPM and gives me a little more grunt at low RPM. It doesn't make much difference IMHO, except maybe in the wallet.

Here in San Diego, a comfortable ride outside the bay is 12-15 mph on most days. Just up the coast off Oceanside you can push 14-18 mph because the offshore islands still provide a little shielding. In the bay, if the wind kicks up or the commercial boats are active, you're around 14-18 mph with occasional wake slowdowns.

AFAIC, I didn't buy the C-Dory as a ski boat and I wouldn't trade the dry ride (inside and comfy) for one of those deep vee center console fishing boats heading out for Dodos either. I don't mind getting up a little earlier....

Whatever you choose, if it's the same block, you're gonna be satisfied.

Don
 
Peter-

You're welcome, and thanks for the compliment!

What we really need to do is to gather up all this well thought out advice and set it up so it is accessible to new members so that we don't have to repeat it every few weeks or months.

We could really combine a lot of it into some solid, comprehensive, blocks of information that would be the foundation for new members getting aquainted with the C-Dory experience.

Not that we don't enjoy talking with all the new folks, we do, but we can do that in addition to making it easy for them and ourselves to find the basic informaion they need. Then we can answer their more specific questions instead of trying to remember if we've covered all the aspects of a basic question, again..

Joe.
 
I operate in some very thin water when home and there have been many times when sliding the boat across a sand bottom that I've been thankful for additional power. The 90 has also helped to rock the boat (you turn your wheel side to side while backing to break suction) off after beaching. The Merc thusfar is flawless (I have two of them).
 
I have the Honda 90 on mine and am completely satisfied. I'm sure a 75 will make most people happy as well. However, if the cost difference between the two is not that great I would recommend that you not buy the minimum HP. I don't think that top speed is really a factor in going bigger it would be more power for when you loaded heavy. You never know what kind of conditions you might find yourself in and having the power to takle large swells is nice. Not that you want to think about resale when your buying a boat but, a lot of people love hoursepower. If you buy the bare minimum that might turn some people off depending on their planned use. Just some thoughts for you. There are far more experienced c-brats on here than me.
 
Wow! Thanks everybody for your comments. It is fun to join a site, post a question, and have 8 replies the next morning!

So, here's my second question: Do I care that the Honda's aren't fuel-injected (at this horsepower range)? All things being equal, I'd rather have "standard" automotive technology in my marine engine and I haven't used a carbureted car engine since I retired my 1970 Ford Falcon in 1988.
 
I'll chirp in my $.02 here. First of all I would go with at least a 90 for the 22. Thats seems to be what most people are happy with. I went with a suzuki 115 and wouldn't want any less power. But I also think any more would be overkill. But it's nice to not have to open her all the way up to make 30mph. I also like the extra power for big ocean swells. And like mentioned if you're heavily loaded the extra HP will make a difference. Tom( starcraft) was out in the islands last weekend with a big load, 5 people I think and I remember him saying his gas mileage went out the door and he couldn't even get above about 4000 Rpm's. But don't quote me. Now as far as EFI or not. I know some will disagree but I would not buy anything without EFI personally. I'm on my second suzuki EFI main engine( two different boats) And they fire right up every time even when very cold out. And purrs right out of the gate. Now Tom's honda seems a lttle tougher and rougher running when she first starts on a cold morning, but once she's warmed up runs like a champ. I'm a sucker for the easy starting of my Suzuki. But it has also been said it's hard to buy a bad engine these days all makes are pretty good. Good luck, and have fun in the buying process.

Sark
 
Chubby,

My very opinionated answers to both questions - the 75 Honda will handle the boat under any circumstance. I've had both on CD22s, and except for the top RPM range I can't tell any difference between the two. The torque curves for both engines are quite similar... my comment is after several thousand hours living with them both. Fishing with a 90 Honda tomorrow.

Carbs work fine, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy another carb-equipped Honda. Easier to self-service in the boonies (BTDT). BUT, my guess is that Honda will be out with a +/- 90 h.p. injected engine soon. I said that last year too, so "soon" may be over the hill a bit. Honda is very good about doing their own beta testing, so when it's ready - voila.

My favorite engine for the 22CD is the E-Tec 90 2-stroke. The weight is more in line with the original 22 design - it's economical, quiet, and about three years before the first required service. A plus for me, because I keep my boat in the water, and it's a PITA for this old guy to pull the boat :cry

HTH,

Dusty
 
SAVING THIS INFO:

Sea Wolf suggested collecting this information in a way that would make it more accessible for newbies (and others) to find in the future. As a CD wannabe, I couldn't agree more.

Here's a simple suggestion:

(1) I'd prefer that this information not be extracted and summarized. Reading through the original thread provides a great feel for how this site works, the interactons among members, etc., along with the core content.

(2) I would like to see the information (including related threads) organized for quick reference later.

(3) To accomplish this, perhaps a 'sticky' could be created by the moderators. Rather than repeating all the information, the sticky could simply contain a short paragraph describing the thread, along with a link to the original. The date of the initial inquiry would also be informative to the reader.

Rather than FAQs, in effect, we would have an 'annotated bibliography' for a growing number of topics.

For example, in about 5 or 6 brief paragraphs, one might find links to the following engine threads:
- 2-stroke vs 4-stroke
- HP - is bigger always better?
- Carb vs EFI
- Honda vs Suzuki vs . . ?
- Single vs dual power

Since most of these have been discussed several times (at least), each topic would probably contain several links.

(4) Yes, it is always possible to 'search' for such items, but one never quite knows what to search for, or which key words one should use. In contrast, browsing through a list of items (that are known to exist) can be much more efficient. Browsing such a list is often quite informative by itself, and frequently plants the seed for future inquiries on other topics.

(5) Restraint: For simplicity, this process should be applied to a small, select group of core issues.

As usual, my blathering has produced a message that it longer than need be; the process of actually creating these links is probably much simpler than the length of this message would indicate . . .

BTW - This thread is a perfect example of the value of this forum. Thanks (yet again) to Da Nag, Tyboo, and the other moderators.

e.g.
 
Chubby Bunny":15nos4no said:
So, here's my second question: Do I care that the Honda's aren't fuel-injected (at this horsepower range)?
Click to expand...

Your decision. If your heart is set on a Honda, then go for it. Ain't nobody gonna beat you up for your decision. (well, maybe one or two will snicker privately. :lol: ) I cared and it delayed delivery on my new 2005 by over a month while Yamaha geared up for the shift from carbureted to EFI. Sea Wolf Joe snuck in ahead of me only because his Yammie dealer got some that had "damaged" shipping containers and was able to sell them before the official launch date.

Read the Ancient Mariner's comments earlier. (Sawdust) He doesn't speak with forked tongue.

Don
 
I think the perfect engine would be the ETEC90. It is lighter than the 4 strokes and with bigger fuel tanks, 2 batteries, kicker, and as much other crap as I can cram in, I'm really heavy in the stern (the boat, not me). However, from what I've heard you'll pay dearly for an ETEC and it is not proven technology. I've jumped in on the ground floor of new technology before and regretted it. Some ETECs have had problems with the sensors and computers that control everything and may take a few years to get things working right. There are ETEC owners on here that may chime in with their experience with them.
 
All brands seem to have growing pains - E-Tec, AFAIK, is doing great. Very rare problems and virtually no service bulletins. The one problem my AK buddy Tom had should have been taken care of immediately by the dealer -- took much too long to get a simple problem fixed. I've had the E-Tec 90 on a 22 CD for a year, and have one now on a 19 Ft. aluminum boat (Klamath). I'd not hesitate to buy another. 2-stroke technology is far from new - and with the addition of the upgraded oiling system and wear-related components I'd predict a long life for E-Tec. NO manufacturer will tell you how many hours your outboard should run -- far too many variables. 4-5000 hours is not unusal on the old Hondas - but proper service and care are key. They are all good now, because it's tough competition out there. All win, no lose for us users.

Dusty
 
iggy-

Lots of great thoughts about how to organize this site's information for newbies! You make some very important points I handn't considered fully.

Maybe if others are also interested, we could start a new topic on organizing information from past threads on common topics so we can discuss it further with those concerned, and not pirate off this thread.

Joe.
 
A note on Hondas and carbs. The Hondas seem to have endless carb issues in the hot and humid south . We have more dissapointed Honda customers than any other brand [ we sell Honda,Suzuki,Yamaha,Nissan/Tohatsu,and Etec!]. The carburated Honda motors will not start after as little as 1.5 months of storage down here and require a carb cleaning [not covered by warranty]. I know that in northern climates the problems are not the same . I dont know if there is a difference in fuels , or if the climate makes the difference .We do not recommend them to our customers .We want to sell things that are trouble free.
Fuel injection for us is as close to trouble free as you can get . No matter what brand .
Honda has already built the new 75/90 EFI motors and they will be out relatively soon [in outboard years] . Probably winter or spring '07 . I hear they are lighter and run great . I wouldnt expect less from the largest internal combustion engine maker on the planet!
But for now , our 4 stroke fave is Suzuki.
The sleeper of the bunch that we sell is Nssan and Tohatsu [identical except for a sticker and 3% for the Nissan name ].They are simply the best value on the market . They build a very E Tec like, 2 stroke motor called the TLDI .Its been running trouble free for us for years. They build a great product but are horrible marketers .
There is a friendly dealer point of view on the motor wars .
Marc
 
Marc,

Agree on Nissan/Tohatsu - I use em for kicker/trolling motors. We have plenty of trouble with any carb engine up in the NW if they are not run dry after shutdown. The new small orfices and crazy fuel is a real PITA.

My only objection to EFI is not the EFI - just that I boat in a lot of remote (I mean really remote) areas where old gas is normal - and water comes with the gas free. I do use a chamois, and the filters get what's left - usually. Dirty carbs I can do.

Dusty
 
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