25 Tug questions...answered!

[New Hampshire Guy]

Hi to all BRATS!

I have the 25 Tug about 50 yards from where I sit, in the water and now has a few hours on it. If you have some questions I'd like to open myself for target practice. Please be patient, but I promise I'll do the best I can.
My big boat experience is somewhat limited, so if you ask me to compare it to another boat I won't be much help.
Let the games begin...

John Cameron
Y-Landing Marine Services

[Pat Anderson]

Thanks, John! How about posting a few pix?

Which engine does it have? They talked about 80 hp and 100 hp Yanmars in the SBS sales literature, I understand they actually tested with a 125 hp - is this the 125 hp Yanmar? Something else?

Cruising speed?

Top speed WOT?

Does it have a fuel flow meter? How about some numbers, gph at cruising speed would be the most important probably.

How does it get to the plane? Easily? Sluggishly?

And the all important one - what are the dimensions of the Reading Room? Need to know if an Airhead Composting Marine Toilet will fit!

[New Hampshire Guy]

Great! Some questions I can answer.

The boat does NOT have fuel flow meters so I can only give you the Yanmar Charts.
The boat options list and our invoice say the boat has a 110HP Yanmar, but it is a 4JH3-DTE which means you are correct, it is 125HP.

WOT is about 21-22MPH (flat water) and it can cruise at 18mph. The RPM's are not correct. May be because of the 110HP change to 125HP. WOT is at 3600 and the Yanmars can go all day at wide open minus 200, so you can cruise at 18 and be in limits, but it is above the 3000 they say.

The Reading Room/Lav/WC I'll have to remeasure. It is sort of a 5 sided/faceted space, with no two sides alike. The sitting station is in a corner where the widest point, where your elbows would go for instance, is 30 inches. I'll have to see about getting pictures because it is confusing to write about. If you could tell me the footprint of the composting unit I could just measure that.

Pictures to follow. Take Care.
John

[Butch]

Oooo pics, can't wait! I have a hunch the pics will draw more questions from the Brats... me included. Keep us posted on your observations as you begin to enjoy the boat. Butch

[thataway]

The question I would have, is there a hump in the RPM vs speed curve like a planing boat? Or is it more of a flat curve like a semi displacement boat (similar to a Rosoborough)?

The second question is a bit more rethorical--what will happen as the boat is loade down with cruising gear? Will it get to a point when it will not plane? We have some facts on the Tom Cats which show that even laden they will continue to scoot and have good fuel mileage.

It will be interesting to see what the fuel consumption is on the C Range 25--most diesels get 20 hp/gallon an hour. So if one is burning 5 gallons an hour a 20 mph, this means 100 HP and a mileage of 4 miles a gallon--extremely good!

[Sawdust]

Or my 21 C-Ranger Tug, which burns 1 quart of diesel per hour at 6 knots.

And Mr. Thataway is absolutely right - ain't rocket science. Weight is a significant part of the equation, particularly for a planing hull that is in transition from semi-dispacement speed to a full plane. My old Tomcat 24 was very forgiving, and it could jump on plane with 12 big bodies aboard. IMO the 25 Ranger, with about 14 degrees deadrise aft, will require lots of HP when fully loaded with liquids, personal gear, and people, to make the transition and get to full planing attitude. Just my guess. How much HP? We'll soon know, and it is a great boat. I'd love it with a 55 hp Yanny and stay at trawler speeds.

Dusty

[Sea Wolf]

What impresses me the most and worries me a bit at this point is the very intense level of high expectations we seem to have for this boat!

So many expect so much in the finished design for the R-25 Tug that it may be very hard to deliver everything to everyone. And, realistically, since we know that every design is really a compromise, it will be expected that there will be some minor disappointments at least.

I'm guessing that C-Ranger's desire to bring forth a throughly thought out and highly finished design has kept it from our view since the last showing back at the parade & boat show in the water many months ago. The limitations of the design at that point made for a somewhat disappointing introduction.

Let's all hope for a great re-introduction of this much awaited new boat design. I'm getting very anxious just to see it, and I don't even have any $$$ on the line!

Joe.

[Byrdman]

John.... Many thanks for stepping out there ... Now you are killing me at the same time. I am attempting to move from AL to TN...over the next couple of weeks... and you are 1270 miles away from Clarksville, TN...which is streatching my abilities to go AWOL from moving duties and responsibilities. But then...hell... I never wen AWOL in 27+ years of service...and if I go now...they can not bust me...or take away my retirement.... But worse....I would have to face Sherryl... and that would make a man appreciate a good hurricane.... so.... just gonna have to wait till mid Oct to see one on the Gulf I guess.

But.. Thanks for your post...and your numbers.

Bob and Dusty have it pegged....as does Joe. There has to be at least 20-30 of us who have taken prictures, printed them, re-drawn them, drank coffee and other beverages over them, re-drawn them...gone back to the pictures....wondered...figured...wondered some more... but, the Livingstons have been faced with BUILDING THE BOAT. My hats are off to them.

Yep, I see load/weight/hp issues too. But, what I think I see is a great weekend traveling boat capable of getting you about the area with a nice turn of speed (knots)... and too.... a hull that will troll along .....very long...long distances for those wishing to see the distant waters....at the reduced "traditional trawler speeds." I happen to have had the TC24 hull that Dust referes to. Yes, just like Bob indicates for the new TC255... you can have her loaded...and have your speed too. But, there is only one thing (or two of them on the TCs) that make this possible...and it is HP.

Not sure exactly on Bob's TC255...but I think combined total of somewhere in the 270-300 range..... kinda sorta pushing the 3 times hp range of the 125 hp diesel. So...what I think I am seeing...is if ya want a fast trailerable C-Dory boat that you can load up and still go fast... the TC255 might be the rig... But... like ol' Dusty so clearly states... if your gonna load up this current CR-25... then why go over the top with HP... drop back down to lighter/smaller/more economical/slower... and spend your funds on the travel...rather than on the camel's owners....opps. But then too.... I have spent many many hours on Dusty's ol hull, with one of the Honda 90s (the old carburated ones...which worked great)...with one of the motors running at about the 1600-1800 rpm range.... and cruised the day/night away...with very minimal fuel burn too. A very economical "trawler" it was.

Hummm... CR25 with the new 300 hp suzuki 4 stroke on the stern anyone?

Just kidding... Great to see the boat getting out in the water for sure. Time will tell...options abound for sure.

[Pat Anderson]

[Pat Anderson]

[Sea Wolf]

Pat-

Nice looking/ performing boat!

Looks exactly like a SAILBOAT with a little extra beam to create some more room inside:



Might be interesting to shop around for an older, used quality keelboat and see what one could do to make a conversion. Would be a great project for someone who enjoys that type of thing.

If one could hire Bob Austin (with all his experience and knowledge) as Project Advisor, you'd come out with a better boat than anything available on the market, bar none!

Plus, with a carefully selected older boat, you could get (if you wanted that sort of thing) a boat with a loving, hand crafted, beautiful wood interior. Hard to make that kind of an interior anymore in the U.S. because of prohibitive labor costs.

Fun just to think about!!!

Joe.

On Edit: Reference to Lord Nelson Victlory tug deleted as too much to expect unless an equally expensive sailboat was used as a beginning point.

[thataway]

This gets a bit off thread, but there are a number of sail boats which have been made into "trawlers" A friend just did a Schucker 40 with the 75 hp Yanmar engine--this owner is a professional boat builder and the result is far better than new. With the hurricane damaged boats, this is a great opportunity to pick up a good hull for nothing. (A friend gave away 5 boats last week)

Back to the HP/speed. The big question which always comes up, is how do these larger highly turboed engines do at low speeds? Do they tend to carbon up the turbo? (Most encourage running the engine at operating temperature and running the engine up to rated RPM every few hours and toward the end of the run). I do agree that if you want a slow speed boat, you need to put in an engine which is appropiate for that speed (like 20 hp)--but you would design the hull differently. I built one boat with a 18 hp Sabb diesel and controlable pitch prop--the boat was 38 feet long and weight of 15,000 lbs and would go 7 knots easily in calm water.

There are two slightly different basic blocks in the 4 cyl Yanmar engines from 54 to 120 hp--but they are basically 122 to 134 cu inch engines, so they fall below the magic number of one hp per cubic inch--which is an excepted limit for durability. But the same block may be 54 hp or 110 hp, depending on the configuration of the turbo.

Back to speed. We almost always traveled at 5 to 7 knots in our sailboats/motorsailors. When I went to trawlers, I wanted a boat which could do 10 knots on occasion. The reason was that there are a number of coastal passages on the coast of the US, that 10 knots allows that passage during daylight hours, and avoids an "overnighter".

I am sure that the C Ranger 25 will always achieve this 10 knots and will be a huge success, especially given the state of fuel prices and the number of people retiring and wanting a small trawler.

[dtol]

Pat Anderson writes- From how a heavier boat is going to perform on the plane with less horsepower under real world conditions is really what we are all waiting to find out.

What also would be important to an Alaskan owner is how well this boat handles in rough water and I mean swells with chop. I have spent hours in 8 ft seas with our 22 cruiser and it handles it very well. Over the years we have developed confidence in the Shade Tree. Its to the point we are having trouble making a decision about upgrading because we don't know how other boats (even the cd25 and the TC255) will handle rough water and you are going to have to deal with it every now and then.

I do know that at least one charter company purchased a TC255 but didn't have it very long so didn't hear how it was performing. There are lots of 25 cruisers appearing up here but don't see them out were we go. We see large 27ft plus charter boats and 22 cruisers regularly.

Also how comfortable is it in the Rock and Roll catagory.

[Sawdust]

How she takes heavy weather is a guess at this time. With her fine entry forward and clean hull, my guess is that she will be excellent.

My 21 C-Ranger Tug, which has a Bristol Bay commercial boat ancestor, is completely at home in 25-30 knots with breaking tops. Enough weight in the keel and lots of weight low in the hull gives her a nice quick roll-rate, and she is very kind to all aboard. A comfortable cruise of 8.5-9 knots and a top of 11 is all I need to run Deception Pass at max current (if I want to, which isn't often), and just loafing along at 6 knots, burning a quart an hour and so quiet you can hear the gulls scold you, is the way I like to go. Maybe these new diesels are different, but I do NOT like to run a diesel for any length of time at more than max minus 500 rpm.

If we all wanted the same thing they could just build one boat and make us all happy. A good cruise speed is important for folks like Pat, whio work and want to max their "away" time. For old fuds like Byrdman and Dusty, poking along and enjoying every minute ain't all bad.

Beautiful Sunday, huh?

Dusty

[dtol]

Its gorgeous in the Anchorage area today. So far! One of the few really nice days we have had this fall (and it is fall here).