King Trailer owners - check your disc brakes

Falco

In interesting experience to relate to all King Trailer owners:

My 2004 King tandem (4000 model) has 3910 miles on it. Imagine my surprise when I went to check the brake fluid level the other day to find the reservoir empty. This can happen when brakes wear out, requiring more fluid than the cylinder contains. (Shame on me for not checking it every time I go out.) I refilled it and bled the master cylinder then went to bleed the slave cylinders on each caliper. Of course I immediately rounded off the first 2 brass bleeder nuts.

I called Les Schwab and a few trailer repair places in the Seattle area. I took the trailer to Midas - very helpful but could do nothing for me. No one worked on Kings. I called King Trailer and spoke with John. King does not service their trailers. He gave me a few names of shops he said did. I called two of these - neither works on Kings. I called Tie Down Engineering in GA who makes the "G4" brakes http://www.tiedown.com/ag4brake.html on the trailer and got from them their local distributors contact info. I called them and got the name of a fellow who does work on Kings - Gary Estes in Issaquah (206-999-2320).

I took the boat and trailer to Gary who dismantled the right front and rear brakes to find the pads were completely shot. This is a little surprising given the age and mileage on the trailer. And no, I do not drive Stevens Pass every time I go out (only once since the boat was new). Most of my trips are from Seattle to Everett - hardly any hill climbing... And no, my boat is not grossly overloaded - bear in mind this trailer, but for winch and load class "B" tires is "rated" for 7000# according to King ...

Gary said the brakes were undersized for the trailer. He recommends I swap out the entire units for a finned, double rotored Tie Down unit called the "Eliminator" (http://www.tiedown.com/avented.html ... $1000 for all 4 installed. Hmmm. More $ down the hole I love and call my boat. I wouldn't mind if it seemed a better value.

I called John at King. Lo and behold, King now puts the Eliminators (or something comparable) on the 4000 model tandems.

Suggestions:

1. Check your brake fluid reservoir each time you go out.

2. All King (all trailer?) owners should routinely check their brake pads. Look for at least some space between rotor and pad backing (caliper).

3. If you have a single rotor system, consider switching out to a finned double rotor system; a $1000 every 18 months makes it worthwhile.

4. Keep a spray tank of premixed Salt Away handy and spray down the brakes after each trip.

5. New C-Dory buyers: add finned, dual rotors to your list of must haves.

6. Got a King in the Seattle are? Call Gary.

gljjr · Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 2:07 pm Post subject:

I've used Gary www.garyestes.com for several years. He is a great guy and really knows his stuff. And yes, he works on ALL trailers and even does house/roadside calls!

FYI: Any trailer with disc breaks needs to have the break fluid checked each time you go out! This is due to the way disc brakes work. This is not specific to King trailers. But then, I would rather put fluid in the master cylinder than have to re-adjust the brakes all the time.

SEA3PO · Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 2:59 pm Post subject:

Brake fluid (Dot 4) is hygroscopic...that is.. it is dryer than the air...and so it absorbs moisture....1 or 2% is not uncommon in a car ...on a boat trailer I would guess it is much more... and thus it lowers the boiling point of the brake fluid...to a point where when the disk brake gets warm the fluid boils and expands....thus that expands the brake causing more heat...more boiling..and on and on...what this causes is extreme brake wear.... I would really think that brake fluid on a boat trailer should be changed at least once a year...maybe more under heavy use...I converted my brakes over to Dot 5 fluid...silicone brake fluid...which is not hygroscopic...and does not absorb water... I can't imagine why anyone would build brakes that are immersed in water and still use Dot 4 fluid..

Joel
SEA3PO

SEA3PO · Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject:

To prevent rounding off of the bleeder screws there is a trick...and it works everytime...if you force them they will break and that is a real problem....so try this...it works..
place a deep socket over the bleeder screw...one that just fits over the bleeder, but does not hang up on it...then give the deep socket some good wacks with a large hammer... what that will do is flex the threads on the cast iron caliper and unlock the bleeder threads....you will be amazed how well this works...the bleeders will come out really easy after the threads have unlocked...

Joel
SEA3PO

Falco · Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject:

SEA3PO:

Thx for the info.

Gary Estes recommends a 6 month interval between brake fluid changes, check/maintenance and bearing repacks for guys like me that generally are always trailering in/out of saltwater.

BTW, your trick for bleeder nuts is right on - I also noticed Gary used a deep well as you suggest but worked it back and forth (loosen/tightened) in very small increments as he backed them out. Interesting. I used a 5 sided brake line wrench but to no avail.

gljjr · Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 5:15 pm Post subject:

Falco, I would suspect you actually used a 6 point wrench Wink

Great point about the deep socket Joel! I had forgotten that trick as it just seems so natural to use a socket! I swithed over to DOT 5 on my Trailer and also did the Motorhome that way due to the higher heat rating. Nothing like going down a long grade pulling a car and having the Motorhome brakes go spongy! Sad

After changing to the DOT 5 we never had that problem again!

starcrafttom · Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 5:49 pm Post subject:

What is required to change to dot 5.?is it just changing the fluid or are different parts involved?

Falco · Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 6:46 pm Post subject:

gljjr:

You know me so well -- and we have yet to meet. My "6 sided" wrench looked like this:

It made those bleeder nuts nice and round.

gljjr · Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 9:25 pm Post subject:

Tom,

You should only have to fully flush the fluid. IE: you don't want to have any DOT 4 left in the system. Other than that all the parts should be DOT 5 capable I believe. You would have to check with the manufacturer to be 100% sure though. The DOT 5 has a higher boiling point and doesn't suck up water as much as DOT 4 does hence the reason I put it in the motor home.

gljjr · Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject:

Been there done that Falco! Those darn vice grips will get you every time! You know you are in real trouble when you take your big water pump pliers and use them to close the vice grips! Embarassed

DaveS · Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject:

For those of you in the Western Washington area, I just spoke with Andy at King Trailer to find out where to find parts for the Titan Model 60 and Disc Brakes for the the King Trailer.

He said that the following firm is "the place to go".

Six Robblees
2110 37th Street
Everett, Wa.
425-252-8666

(Apparently, they know the King Trailers well and stock not only "brake supplies" ie: master cylinders and m. c. repair kits etc. but lighting as well).

Falco · Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject:

Quick clarification: Six Robblees is the authorized distributor for Tie Down Engineering in Georgia. They carry the Tie Down brakes, hubs, axles, etc. which King uses. Don't know what other supplies they carry, but here's the web site: http://www.sixrobblees.com/. The web site lists their main office as:

11010 Tukwila Intl. Blvd.
Tukwila, WA 98168
(206) 767-7970
(800) 275-7499

Gary Estes did a fine job swapping out the old disc brakes on my King for the new style Eliminators. Out a grand, but safer now. Am glad King is now using the better Eliminators...

DaveS · Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:17 pm Post subject:

Falco,
Thank you for starting this thread and sharing your information.

After reading your initial comments, I went out and checked the master cylinder for fluid in our King trailer. Imagine my surprise to find it empty and rusty! TRULY OPERATOR ERROR for not staying on top of the maintenance issue. This prompted the following......I then pulled all the wheels, checking the brake pads, discs, calipers, bearings...repacked them etc., then flushed the master cylinder with DOT 5 (I decided to change the type of fluid per the comments above). It was during the flushing process that the discovery was made that one of the bleeder valves was "dull" and not fully seating thereby causing a leak of fluid. (Probably why I had no fluid in the master cylinder). I then made a trip to Six Robblees and ordered a new master cylinder (as a back up), two bleeder valves and thought what the heck, may as well order a "back up set of calipers" and some brake pads. Be advised I learned this was not a bad idea as Six Robblees had none of this in stock and it took over a week to get the new master cylinder. Since, the King Trailer company is only 6 miles from our house, I stopped in and showed them the (worn seating on the bleeder valve) and told them that I had ordered new bleeder valves, but it would be a few days before it would be delivered to me. King Trailer then generously gave me two new ones and I took them home and replaced the bad bleeder valve. The whole system then "checked out" and seemed to be working fine. Three days ago, we packed the boat to head out on an overnight cruise. When I got to town (3 miles away), I stopped to check the brakes....much to my dismay all four hubs were hot enough to fry a dozen eggs on them. Fortunately, I had stopped in front of a Seattle Firefighter's house (I've known him for years). He brought his floor jack out and after jacking up the wheels, I was able to turn them with minimal drag. When the hubs cooled, I then took the boat and trailer back home. They were fine for most of the way home but when I applied the brakes near home, they wouldn't release all the way, causing them to heat up again. Finally, I got home, and called Six Robblees and the master cylinder had not arrived yet. I asked them to put a "trace" on them. An hour later, they called and said it had just arrived by UPS. After a trip to Everett, I returned with the new master cylinder and replaced the old. Hoping the problems were over, I checked the system, to find that the brakes were still not releasing. I called King Trailer and they reminded me that this same master cylinder is used on both drum brakes and disc brakes. When used on trailers with disc brakes, there is a check valve in the rear of the master cylinder that has to be punctured with an awl in order to perform the "releasing" function for the disc brakes. (This is mentioned in with the trailer packet directions I received when I purchased the boat and trailer.... under a caption "IMPORTANT". Idea

This leads me to the conclusion that most likely, some rust particles had lodged in the check valve of the old master cylinder causing the brakes to not fully release.
I've since taken the trailer out on the road up to highway speeds and repeated braking and it all seems fine now.
(By the way....the brake pads, discs, calipers, wheel bearings etc. were all fine!).

So, what have I learned? Pay close attention to trailer maintenance, have a few spare parts with you, because you'll be lucky if you'll find them readily available if you are on the road and know that King Trailer was most accomodating with my questions.

Sea Wolf · Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:49 pm Post subject:

Dave-

I converted my E-Z Loader over from drum to disc brakes a year or two ago and had a similar problem.

Although I thought I punched out the check valve with the awl as directed, I had release problems.

So I just replaced the whole actuator/coupler set up for another $100, and everything was fine.

I'd actually recommend just replacing the actuator/coupler to anyone doing this conversion or rebuild, since it's such a key element in the braking system and so prone to wear and rust (although the new actuators have aluminum hydraulic body/master cylinders in them to prevent rust).

Glad you got your problem solved!

Joe.

DaveS · Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:06 am Post subject: