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markm
Joined: 09 Jan 2020 Posts: 19 City/Region: Clinton
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Otter
Photos: Otter
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Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:43 pm Post subject: Twin Honda 50 feedback needed |
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We are repowering our 22 cruiser and going from Honda 40s to Honda 50s. I would love to hear from those that have done just this and get your thoughts. We have also considered the Suzuki 50s and 60s but I think at this time the Honda is winning out mainly due to local service. |
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C-Green
Joined: 12 Apr 2004 Posts: 318 City/Region: Houghton
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2002
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Green
Photos: C-Green
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Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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I have no experience with that switch. I do have 40 twins, are extremely happy with them and my understanding of the 50's from discussions with Les (RIP) is that 50's will have reduced performance in midrange compared to 40's and will only get you one mph (or so) extra top speed at WOT. So his advice was why spend the extra money when you mostly run at midrange. So if you run usually at higher speeds, I would look at twins 60's that at least one Brat has installed and was extremely happy with.
MTCW, Jay |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 21375 City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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The best Posts on upgrading Honda outboards:are this series by Jay on Hunkydory.. He gives his rational for going from 40 to 60, rather than 50. It is worth a read before deciding on your coarse. _________________ Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL |
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markm
Joined: 09 Jan 2020 Posts: 19 City/Region: Clinton
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Otter
Photos: Otter
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Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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thataway wrote: | The best Posts on upgrading Honda outboards:are this series by Jay on Hunkydory.. He gives his rational for going from 40 to 60, rather than 50. It is worth a read before deciding on your coarse. |
Believe me I have read that thread a hundered times. I have thought about the honda 60's but have really narrowed my search down to Honda 50s or maybe Suzuki 60s.
I had decided to go for the Honda 50s because of 115hp rating. I did call NMI and they said to not exceed that HP rating.
I appreciate all your feedback and would really love to hear from those that have gone to the Honda 50s. There certainly must be some on here. |
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jkidd
Joined: 23 Oct 2006 Posts: 1668 City/Region: Northern, Utah
State or Province: UT
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Voyager
Photos: Voyager (JK)
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Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2023 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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markm wrote: | thataway wrote: | The best Posts on upgrading Honda outboards:are this series by Jay on Hunkydory.. He gives his rational for going from 40 to 60, rather than 50. It is worth a read before deciding on your coarse. |
Believe me I have read that thread a hundered times. I have thought about the honda 60's but have really narrowed my search down to Honda 50s or maybe Suzuki 60s.
I had decided to go for the Honda 50s because of 115hp rating. I did call NMI and they said to not exceed that HP rating.
I appreciate all your feedback and would really love to hear from those that have gone to the Honda 50s. There certainly must be some on here. |
Well Sportcraft Marine was told by NMI that it was ok to mount a Suzuki DF140 on my 22. For boats over 21 feet the Yellow decal isn't required. I did mine that way because I lose 24 percent of the horse power at Yellowstone and 10 percent at Lake Powell. It sure does run nice at sea level. _________________ Jody Kidd
KE7WNG
Northern, Utah
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C-Wolfe
Joined: 16 Sep 2020 Posts: 335 City/Region: Anchorage
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: Valhalla
Photos: C-Wolfe
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Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:08 am Post subject: |
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What is your reason for repowering? _________________ Stephan
ValHalla 08 TC255 2024-present
C-Wolfe 22 C-Dory cruiser 2020-24
No Name; Bayliner explorer 26 2012-2015
sparkle; Ericson 25 CB 2008-2012
Sculpin; Drascombe Drifter 2005-2008 |
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jkidd
Joined: 23 Oct 2006 Posts: 1668 City/Region: Northern, Utah
State or Province: UT
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Voyager
Photos: Voyager (JK)
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Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:11 am Post subject: |
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Who are you asking? |
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C-Wolfe
Joined: 16 Sep 2020 Posts: 335 City/Region: Anchorage
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: Valhalla
Photos: C-Wolfe
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Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:22 am Post subject: |
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jkidd wrote: | Who are you asking? |
I'm asking the OP, markm.
I have the same model and year boat, and I'm still running the original honda 50s, basically same as his 40s. I'm guessing he is having issues with his engines or else he will not be spending all that money on a small upgrade, I'm just curious to know what are his reasons.
If his engines are original like mine, they are most likely carburated, new one will be FI, a nice upgrade, but not worth it on its own for me. I have no other experience then my set-up on a C -Dory so I can't bring much else to this conversation. |
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markm
Joined: 09 Jan 2020 Posts: 19 City/Region: Clinton
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Otter
Photos: Otter
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Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 11:38 am Post subject: |
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C-Wolfe wrote: | What is your reason for repowering? |
Great question. I am just over carbureted and want the EFI. To me they are worth it. I have limited time on the water each year and when I go I want to know that my engines are ready to roll with me. I would love to get a bit more juice out of the boat. I absolutely love the 22 cruiser and honestly cannot see spending what they are asking for other boats.
I have upgraded all of my electronics, new radar, customized the transom with a bait table and cooler storage, downriggers, shrimp puller, new Wallas, new sink pump and faucet new led lights throughout. Basically, a new boat other than the fiberglass. The only thing left is the repower. And you are right the struggle I am having is I am not gaining much from the existing 40s. I would certainly install 60s if I thought I would gain that much. If I go 60s I am going with Suzuki.
As long as I am not out of Coast Guard Compliance I am totally fine with exceeding the HP recommended sticker. May need to call the Coast Guard direct and get the actual code number. |
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Hunkydory
Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 2720 City/Region: Cokeville, Wyoming
State or Province: WY
C-Dory Year: 2000
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Hunkydory
Photos: Hunkydory-Jay-and-Jolee
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Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 11:57 am Post subject: |
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Mark, why the preference of Suzuki over other choices? I’m not down on Suzuki, as I own 2 small Suzuki motors & all I know, who own are overall pleased with them, but as I wrote in the thread about my change from Honda 40’s to 60’s that Bob referenced earlier in this thread, this is why I chose a larger heavier Honda 60 over the lighter other makes including Suzuki.
“I chose Honda BF 60’s over the Suzuki 60’s at Sportscraft Marine, primarily because the 40, 50 & 60hp Suzuki motors are all the same cc with the hp increases coming, I believe more in the higher rpm range & not with torque & hp in the rpm, I would find most useful. The Tohatsu 60 in which I was most interested also had the same cc as the Tohatsu 40 & 50 making it most likely to have the same rpm power responses as the Suzuki, but it’s very low weight made it tempting & if EQ Marine would have been more responsive & the motors readily available it would have likely been my 1st choice.”
Jay _________________ Jay and Jolee 2000 22 CD cruiser Hunkydory
I will not waste my days in trying to prolong them------Jack London
https://share.delorme.com/JuliusByers |
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markm
Joined: 09 Jan 2020 Posts: 19 City/Region: Clinton
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Otter
Photos: Otter
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Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Hunkydory"]Mark, why the preference of Suzuki over other choices? I’m not down on Suzuki, as I own 2 small Suzuki motors & all I know, who own are overall pleased with them, but as I wrote in the thread about my change from Honda 40’s to 60’s that Bob referenced earlier in this thread, this is why I chose a larger heavier Honda 60 over the lighter other makes including Suzuki.
I have read your thread and I am certainly not a engine/hp/ rpm expert. I am just wanting a bit more oomph out of the boat. On a nice flat calm day we go about 18-22mph and not really trusting my gauges I would say we are about 80% of WOT. It would be great to get that up around 22-28mph or 22 with lower rpm on calm water. Is that a reality or am I dreaming?
Cost is also a factor the Honda 50s locally are the same as the Suzuki 60s elsewhere. It seems like I just keep adding $$ but I guess it is a boat after all and the reality is 1k more or less over the next 5 years is not a factor. I would rather select the absolute primo option for this boat and be done with it
Thanks Jay for all your extensive reports. I truly wish I was a bit more in tune with the lingo. |
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T.R. Bauer
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 1808 City/Region: Wasilla
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 1993
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: C-Whisperer
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Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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I would repower with the 60s and I don't think it matters if it's with Honda or the Suzuki engines as they both have solid reputations. There has been some chatter about small displacement vs large displacement comparisons and longevity, and I think there is some merit to the discussion, but I wouldn't let that drive your decision...there is far more to an engine than simply how much it displaces.
Also, I'm not sure how much outboards even care about being spun up to the max RPMs. Some people think there is twice the wear at 4k than there is at 2k, but that is not accurate and isn't a linear function at all. There is more wear, but it is generally negligible and you might have to scope the cylinder walls and mic the bearings to even measure it after many thousands of hours. I don't spend much time worrying about what RPMs my engines are running.
What I'm trying to say is they are going to last a really long time with proper maintenance while running within their designed parameters. It's only anecdotal, but I have nearly 3 thousand hours on my 30 year old Honda 45s and I have not babied them in that regard at all. If I want to go 30 mph at 6k RPMs, I do it the rare times the seas allow it. And they have spent dang near their whole life running between 4.5-6k RPMs. They don't really burn any oil and have the same performance as they did decades ago. It's probably harder on them to troll for salmon at low RPMs due to the lower operating temperatures and the considerably lower oil PSI you get at only 600 RPMs.
If I were repowering today, I would certainly look really closely at having 60s on the back. I think you'll be happier in the long run with them. Yeah they cost more....and you'll burn more gas because you'll be going faster. But I would gamble that at 25 mph, the gallons per hour will be nearly identical for the 40, 50, or 60 hp engine pushing the same load in the same conditions. Get the 60s.....lol.... |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 21375 City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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I would have absolutely no problem putting 120 hp or two 60 HP engines on the transom of a C Dory 22. Take what NMPI has told you with a grain of salt. On other days-as noted they will say 140 HP. I probably would not put a 150 on the 22.
Here is the link to Federal Code: Here is a link to the Federal code on transoms of small boats.
As you can see, there is nothing in this set of regs, which says that you cannot put 5 hp over the plate (if one is present) hp. There is an objective test of boat handling--specific speeds etc.
If you have a home built boat there are some certain standards.
Weight aft in the boat is an issue.
If you are looking for increased improvement of med range speeds, you may not see much in the power range of 3000 to 4500 RPM in blocks which are similar displacement. The difference is mostly in the valve train, timing, and some ECU changes. . You will see it in the higher from 4500 to 6000 RPM. No problem running a modern outboard at 5500 RPM if that is necessary.
You may use a more efficient prop. Also I suspect you will see slightly better speed and mileage with a fuel injected over the carb version.
I would personally go with the 60's, especially. in view of what you want to obtain in performance, and the upgrades you have done to the boat. |
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Foggy
Joined: 01 Aug 2013 Posts: 1579 City/Region: Traverse City; Northern Lake Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2014
C-Dory Model: 26 Venture
Vessel Name: Boatless in Boating Paradise
Photos: W B Nod
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Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Check your use.
Check your voyage arena.
Get the right prop(s).
Check the engine weights: twin vs single.
Examine your capability, knowledge and experience.
Go for more vs less horse power; like hiking in cold weather.
You can always reduce but never gain what you don't have.
Aye. _________________ Keep an open mind just enough to not let your brain fall out. |
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Hunkydory
Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 2720 City/Region: Cokeville, Wyoming
State or Province: WY
C-Dory Year: 2000
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Hunkydory
Photos: Hunkydory-Jay-and-Jolee
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Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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markm wrote: |
I have read your thread and I am certainly not an engine/hp/ rpm expert. I am just wanting a bit more oomph out of the boat. On a nice flat calm day we go about 18-22mph and not really trusting my gauges I would say we are about 80% of WOT. It would be great to get that up around 22-28mph or 22 with lower rpm on calm water. Is that a reality or am I dreaming? |
It’s reality not dreaming with the twin Honda 60’s. With a 15 pitch prop running at 4000 rpm, just 66% of WOT, speed with mine is just over 20mph. 80% of WOT will be about 4800 rpm & 28 mph. This is with a medium load in good conditions at sea level & fuel milage if boat well trimmed will be above 5 mpg. I have both trim tabs & Permitrims.
The Suzuki & Tohatsu may do as well, but a gamble to find out, so if you choose the Suzuki let us know how they do in comparison.
Jay |
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