Rebuilding Seastar HH5271-3 Helm Pump

[tsturm]

[colbysmith]

Well Sheeeeet! Many hours of work, not to mention money spent, and back to where I was. After getting home from our last trip, I pulled the cockpit helm that appeared to be causing the problem I listed at the top of this thread. I finished working on the original cabin helm that I pulled, setting the over-pressure valves, and then reinstalled the ORB fittings. Unfortunately, someone in the past put MIP fittings where ORBS should have been. I had tapped it out, but likely over tightened the proper ORB fitting, only to strip it out again. So back to just forcing the MIP fitting in there. And while doing the pressure test, it leaked like a sieve! Ok. I'll rebuild the original cockpit helm then. Which I did. It was definitely an older unit. (When the last owner had the cockpit helm installed, he provided his own helm pump, but I don't know where he got it...) New enough to be a -3, but definitely more wear than the original cabin helm. Got it all put back together, reinstalled it in the boat, and took the boat out today for a test run. Actually seems to be working worse now. Just a recap, turning to port all is well. Then turn to starboard, and nothing, until you move or spin the wheel faster. I'm assuming there is something more going on with that old helm than what resealing it could fix. (All the parts appeared to be installed correctly, and seemed to work before I put it back together.)

So, question for any and all that have two helms. How do they work for you? Are there any additional shutoff valves to lock one system out? Does your steering work normal from either helm?

At this point I really don't want to spend any more money on another new helm! I'm going to see if I can either fix the threads on the original cabin helm with helicoils, or force an MIP fitting in and coat it with the red locktite and see if that will stop it from leaking. Wish I would have recognized it was the cockpit helm in the first place causing all the trouble. And wish the cabin helm would have had the proper fittings installed!

Once I get this all figured out, I'm thinking seriously of redoing the entire hydraulic hose system. As it stands now, and as SeaStar recommends, the cockpit helm has hoses running to the cabin helm where it is tee'd in at the back of the cabin helm. This requires about 16 feet of hose x 3. (Two for pressure, one for the return or supply line.) When I installed my autopilot pump, I teed that in back at the cockpit helm, which required 11 feet of hose x 3. While SeaStar warns not to cut their hoses, I have found some field fittings that work well. I used those when I cut a new 22 ft hose I had left over to make two 11 ft hoses. Seems to me it would be a lot cleaner, with fewer hoses being snaked thru the boat, if I were to cut the hydraulic hoses between the cabin helm and outboard cylinder, to tee in closest to the second helm and the autopilot.

Colby

[Avidmagnum12]

Colby
Your project sounds like the wrong $30 washer on my propeller that cost me about a boat unit to remedy. I’ve sent you some links for possible solution. Hope they help. Sounds like a sticky....leaky hydraulic valve. I know you’ll post your solution.

Tom

[thataway]

Coby I can only relate to larger boats where I had an auto pilot and two helms. In that case the lines were "T" where it. was closest to the main line running from the furthest away helm. Those two were "Hynautic". which is now owned by Sea Star Dometic). The one difference between the Hynautic and Sea Star is the Hynautic has a reservoir and is always under a few PSI of pressure. Since the Auto pilot pump set was close to the steering ram, that is where it was "T". As long as there is adequate fluid in both pumps. then it should work well.

I agree with Tom, it is not the length of hose, it is a "leak" somewhere. Probably in a helm steering pump.

[colbysmith]

Well screw it!!!! Tried fixing the threads on the helm pump I was going to use in the cockpit with a helicoil kit, and it looked ready to go today. Until I screwed in the ORB fitting! 1100 psi and a little leak, so I torqued down just a little more on the fitting, only to have the casing crack.... Why can't shop technicians or others use the fittings called for in the first place! (And why did I even mess with the cabin helm in the first place, when it ended up being the cockpit helm that was the problem...) Tired of screwing with it. Can't fix this pump anymore, and I don't think I want to use parts off the helm pump that was causing the problems in the first place. (Most likely the problem was in the valves/ports that are in the head unit of the old pump that I would need...) So, just ordered another new helm off of Amazon. (So I'll have two brand new helm pumps, one in the cabin, the other in the cockpit!) Should be here Friday, and I'll have a few days to get it all back together before our trip out to Lake Powell. Plan to pretty much redo most of the system. Pulling the tees off the back of the cabin pump and just hook the hoses up there for the outboard cylinder. Then I'm pulling all the extra and unnecessary hydraulic hoses. I'm going to tee the autopilot smart pump, and the cockpit helm into the two main hydraulic hoses close to the other pumps. This will cut the total hose length in half or better, and clean up the hose spaghetti at both helm pumps! I've already ordered the field fittings where I cut into the main hydraulic hoses, rather than replacing those hoses with shorter premade hoses. The fittings are Parker part # 2TFMS-6-5B, and already proven reliable as I used them during the autopilot install. They are screwed into the hose, with another fitting that screws over the outside. Very tight fit, and probably more secure than the pressed on fittings. If anyone else is interested in these fittings, I found the best price from Livingston & Haven. ($15.xx vs $25-32 elsewhere.) I've got more than enough hydraulic hose, and with premade hose costing upwards of $100, it's worth the time to use the field fittings. In the mean time, here's some photos of the little pressure test holder I made.

Backside


Front

[colbysmith]

Finally! It works! Got the new helm and installed it today. Also resealed the outboard hydraulic steering cylinder. So in the end, it was the cockpit helm that was the culprit. Most likely a bad check valve or shuttle valve. In any case, two brand new helms (one in the cabin, one in the cockpit), the resealed cylinder, and some hose work, I should be good for quite some time. The hose work involved removing the tees at the cabin helm where the cockpit helm tied in, and at the cockpit helm where the a/p smart pump teed in. Instead, I teed in to the main hose (between the cabin helm and the cylinder), under the galley countertop where my autopilot smart pump is installed. I ran a small branch hose off the mains, then hooked both the smart pump and cockpit helm into that. No leaks that I could see anywhere, and the boat steered as it should when I took it out for a quick test spin. I still have about an inch play in the cylinder if I push the outboard from side to side, but I suspect that is normal. Either that or some air hidden in the system somewhere. But I bled it today until there were no more air bubbles anywhere.

[colbysmith]

And here we go again. It worked, for a bit. But I'm right back to the same exact problem. I was thinking of checking my hydraulic hoses for any kinks to see if there was some restriction. But the more I thought about it, the more it seems this issue has to be in the helms. Low and behold I think I finally got a possible answer. I was going to post again on Hull Truth looking for some information, and when I logged on I found I had a private message. (If anyone knows how to turn on a switch to make Hull Truth notify me of new messages, please let me know.) It sounds reasonable, but I have not been able to find the part listed anywhere.

The symptom you are describing with your steering occurs on single engine boats with two helms at a similar vertical height. The unbalanced prop torque creates a positive pressure in the lines in one direction, and a slight suction effect in the other direction, which pulls the helm check valves off their seat a tiny bit. When you steer slowly enough to starboard the fluid can come back through the check valve of the second helm and return to the first helm through the compensation line. If you steer quickly you will generate enough pressure to close that second check valve and it will steer normally, as you've noticed. (You can also give it a quick snap, then steer slowly and it will work. That doesn't help your AP though.)


We've traditionally recommended Pro helms for this application, because they have a different check valve design that pressurizes the steering lines and keeps the check valves firmly seated. However, we are releasing a simple add-on kit soon that will work with standard helms. The kit part number is HA5500. It will take some time for it to percolate through distribution and be available at your local dealer (you probably won't be able to order one until closer to the end of September). I don't have pricing, but it will certainly be less than the cost of a new helm. Installation should take a marine mechanic no more than half an hour, including bleed time. There's no reason you couldn't do it yourself, but bleeding the system will be faster and easier with a power purge device that most dealers will have.


While it may seem that we are just trying to sell more stuff, this bypassing is a simple consequence of physics and isn't a defect.


Additional background FYI: If the second helm is much higher than the first (on a flybridge, say) then there is enough static head (pressure) in the lines to counter the suction effect, so we don't see this bypassing. It also doesn't happen on twin engine setups, because there is no unbalanced prop torque with counter-rotating props.

[thataway]

Or you can install manual cut off valve, or a two way valve--one way forward one way cockpit helm (capable of handling both Port and Sub. lines...

Interesting. I wonder if other C Dorys have this issue--most hellms are at the same levels.

[colbysmith]

[colbysmith]

Wrote directly to Sea Star again to get some assistance. This was their reply:

Thanks for the email , if you have a twin helm system with a single ram we recommend PRO helms and if you have regular helms the HA5500 may be needed , adding a shut off valve in the return/compensation line is NOT advised . Any of our Authorized service center can convert the regular helms to PRO helms and eliminate the issue .

I wrote back stating I wasn't interested in spending more money on their more expensive helms and asked why they would recommend against the shutoff valve. This was their next reply:

The helms do not need to be replaced they can be modified by a service center to PRO by changing the rear cover , the HA5500 kit is sent out free of charge but the problem is we have no stock due to the pandemic and getting some machined parts . The HA5500 could be ordered form one of our service centers and it does not block the flow on the compensation line , it limits the flow and is set to allow full flow when needed .


I love runarounds. Interesting that their service centers would have these things, but the factory wouldn't. Of course I'm sure the service centers would be happy to send me out two free ones for my helm.... I do have an email out to one of the service centers listed on Sea Star's website. Wondering what they will reply.... Colby

[thataway]

Sea Star was bought out by Dometic a few years ago. Dometic service is ...often awful. Not sure if that will apply to Sea Star, but it will not be the company it was in the past.

They speak of not putting a shut off valve in the return/distributon line. That was not what I had in mind--although it might resolve the issue. I had meant valves in each of the in/out lines, not the return line of the outside helm. Then it would act as there was only a single helm from inside the main helm.

The part HA5500 does not come up in an internet search...so it may not be readily available. The Pro helm is only in the $500+ range--and I wonder if they have new ones of those?

[colbysmith]

Hi Bob. Yeah I knew you meant the pressure lines, but from reading the pm from the guy that claimed to be one of their design engineers and then the stuff from their official rep, I figured it might be easier to just put one shutoff valve in the compensation line. Last I checked the pro helms were a lot more expensive than the regular helms and also required higher pressure hoses which meant I would need to change out the entire system.

[thataway]

Putting in solenoid operating valves would be simple and easy to change. Some of the new "fly by wire" systems you have to change the station from the master, because they don't want someone who is a non crew member or authorized to take over the vessel. Many of the bigger boats have 3 to 5 helm stations. (Pilot house, Fly bridge, aft and both wings of bridge) The throttle and shifter are fly by wire, but steering is joy stick or a lever port to starboard. The auto pilot pump or remote often performs the steering function. I had one boat where I made a little sealed box, which had red and green buttons with direct connection to the relays on the autopilot pump.

The solenoid valve is not really under much pressure, if both are closed, unless you went hard over for some reason. Normally closed valves area available for as low as $18 each. You put a switch in at the aux helm, and turn that switch on when you want to steer from there. Rated at no more than 8 hours continuous use. Current draw about 1 amp, so 2 would be 2 amps, maybe a slight amount more...

[colbysmith]

That would be a lot nicer. I’ll have to look into those solenoid operating valves.

[colbysmith]

And from one of the service centers, round and round we go...

Hi Colby,
I believe the HA5500 is a kit to convert the standard helms to the pro helm style valving, but I don’t have any other information on it than that. I have an e-mail in to Seastar about pricing and availability. We don’t have these kits in stock, and for liability reasons, we don’t sell the parts over the counter.
You could try the following places and see if it would be something they would have in stock.
Pier21 in Kenner, LA Pier21sales@gmail.com
Or Boat Steering Solutions in North Venice, FL Sales@boatsteer.com
Thanks,
Tim
Dan’s Southside Marine - Parts Dept.

I'm thinking the solenoid shut off valves would be the easiest way to go. At least I wouldn't need to pull the helms out yet again to service them. And I have pretty easy access to the hydraulic lines. I've tee'd in the auto pilot pump and the cockpit helm, under neath the sink area, which is just above the autopilot pump. I haven't started looking yet, but Bob do you have any links to the valves you know of? Thanks. Colby