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Peter & Judy
Joined: 03 Dec 2014 Posts: 552 City/Region: Olds
State or Province: AB
C-Dory Year: 2005
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Mistaya
Photos: Mistaya
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SEA3PO
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 1835 City/Region: Chester
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SEA3PO
Photos: SEA3PO
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Could be Bad...or maybe not such a Bad idea...cheaper than a divorce.
I know, you don't need to tell me..
Joel
sEA3PO |
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Marco Flamingo
Joined: 09 Jul 2015 Posts: 1155 City/Region: Seattle
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2004
C-Dory Model: 16 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Limpet
Photos: Limpet
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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That's the kind of stuff I need to read every once in awhile.
Mark |
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Aurelia
Joined: 21 Aug 2009 Posts: 2331 City/Region: Gig Harbor
State or Province: WA
Photos: Aurelia
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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So with a power boat on the ocean, it seems there would be less reason (no sail rigging to babysit)to go up on deck in such conditions and if a person did go overboard, the boat could be stopped faster than a boat under sail. Is that true and does that make a power trawler safer for a couple on the water than a sailboat?
Greg _________________ Greg, Cindie & Aven
Gig Harbor
Aurelia - 25 Cruiser sold 2012
Ari - 19 Cruiser sold 2023
currently exploring with "Lia", 17 ft Bullfrog Supersport Pilothouse |
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potter water
Joined: 12 Apr 2011 Posts: 1076 City/Region: Logan
State or Province: UT
C-Dory Year: 1997
C-Dory Model: R-21 Tug
Vessel Name: Poopsy
Photos: Still C-razy
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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So Painful to read. All of the IF's will go through the man's head the rest of his days.
I've sailed a fair amount and even on my relatively small boats, on mountain lakes, it was a lot of hard work for me at age 65 then, and I never sailed in difficult weather. Taking on a world cruise for two people of that age was probably a bad idea from the get go. That large of a boat really requires a crew of 4 with at least two of them being young and strong and able bodied people. But without dreams, what is left. Good on them for striking out on such a journey, too bad they didn't get some highly experienced Atlantic captain to help fit them out. He or she would have thought of things like life slings etc. _________________ You can tell a man his wife is ugly, but never ever criticize his dog, his gun, his truck or his boat.
Never let ignorance interfere with an opportunity to state a knowledgeable opinion
Testosterone Tales-Amazon.com
2006 C-Dory 22 Cruiser 2008-2014
1997 Ranger Tug 21 Classic 2016
KG7RC |
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bobjarrard
Joined: 03 Oct 2010 Posts: 458 City/Region: Boulder City
State or Province: NV
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:50 pm Post subject: Practice and having options |
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This is a hard story to read. That being said, you cannot "fall or slip" out of a full offshore harness that is properly fastened/worn. You also do not go on deck without the right clothing. When out of the cockpit or exposed (as in when you slide back the hatch cover) you snap onto a safe point or jack line. You use two tethers on your harness so that as you move along the safe pints/jack lines you are never not secure to the boat. No tether should be so long that you can go over the rails or lifelines much less be drug along behind the boat. Good rigging is not damaged by the conditions discussed. You do not fly a jib or genoa in a bad storm, stormsail or nothing. You never commit all hands to be out of the security of the cockpit at one time. You do not value the mast over life. And in bold:
#1 I run the engine in neutral at bad times
#2 I have two Life Slings and know how to use them. I prefer a boom lift at the rail mounted to pad eyes on the mast (good use for the spinnaker pole or flopper stopper poles). You need to be able to drop a lifeline that is in the way of a recovery. anything over 1/2 your body weight is very hard to get aboard, especially if on the high side.
#3 Lights, beacons, and all the rest of it. And you need how to circle back to a known point (GPS MOB button).
#4 There should be a MOB drop pole with light and reflectors ready to toss over at first chance. A trail of debris is not bad either, I have found things too small to spot that float that way. Life rings, seat cushions, and throw bags all have their place.
#5 A self inflating raft or deployable dinghy might have helped, the wife could have been moved to that if not able to be hoisted aboard.
You have to practice for this and other scenarios over and over and them over again. Even with a full crew of young men it is hard to get back aboard someone who is in cold water or rough seas.
I mean no criticism here, my heart goes out to the husband but lessons ignored and not the basis for others to learn are worse than no commentary.
Bob |
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South of Heaven
Joined: 15 Aug 2015 Posts: 1459 City/Region: Sharon
State or Province: MA
Photos: Blue Water
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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Aurelia wrote: | So with a power boat on the ocean, it seems there would be less reason (no sail rigging to babysit)to go up on deck in such conditions and if a person did go overboard, the boat could be stopped faster than a boat under sail. Is that true and does that make a power trawler safer for a couple on the water than a sailboat?
Greg |
Hell yeah. A trawler seems much safer in the conditions that you describe. Why do you think so many older blow boaters come over to the dark side?? _________________ <><><> Jason <><><>
2005 Silverton 35 Motoryacht (Twin 385 Crusaders) (SOLD 6/20)
2000 Camano 31 Troll (Volvo TAMD41p) (SOLD 2/19)
2007 C Dory 25' Cruiser (200 hp Suzuki, sold 7/17)
2003 C Dory 19' Angler (80 hp Yamaha, sold 7/16)
1995 C Dory 16' Angler (40 hp Yamaha, sold 2/16) |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 20841 City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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What a tragic story--and if you have short handed across an ocean, then you feel even more empathy.
Excellent post by bobjarrard. We were on a panel about safety at sea, where the husband fell overboard from a Whitby 42. The wife was below, off watch, and she heard something which woke her up. The boat was a center cockpit, and he saw some grease on the aft deck he wanted to clean up--no life jacket, no harness on or lifelines clipped on. She came on deck, saw no husband and started the engine, let the sails go (were in the trades, wing and wing), and powered a reciprocal course, and found her husband. She had the devil of a time getting him aboard. But he survived. He divorced her about 3 years later! Say what you want!
I don't agree with a 41 foot boat needing a 4 man crew. Marie and I sailed the 62 and 46 footers many thousands of miles across oceans with just the two of us. A good friend Circumnavigated 2x in a 55 footer with two, and 1x in a 34 footer--easier in the 55 footer! The larger boats are more stable. That being said--it is much easier having two more aboard. In our racing boats we had 8 to 10 on 45 footer for long ocean races and always 10 on my friends 55 footer. One issue, is that accustomed long distance sailors work as a team, the husband and wife can read the situation and take action. People who are not accustomed can panic, be sea sick, frightened etc, and actually be a burden. During the passage noted below, we had another experienced couple who were going to go from Bermuda to Azores with us, but she developed cancer and they canceled. We had to decide if we picked up crew, or did it with the two of us. In retrospect, we felt that we made the right decision to just do it, and not take on an unknown person, based on only an interview.
Just the two of us were in a 6 day storm with 45 foot + breaking seas when crossing the North Atlantic. Our anemometer only went to 65 knots and it was pegged much of the time. We have many photos and videos of the decks fully awash, and once the lower spreaders on the Starboard side were in the water...rough--you bet. I also had to go half way up the mast to check the spreaders after that...
We had a strong point at the companionway, with jack lines (5/16" SS wire rope, inside of tubular nylon) secured from extreme stern cockpit to the base of the bowsprit on both sides of the flush deck. There were several strong points at the helm, the main and mizzenmast. Despite the best of preparations, rigging can fail..we didn't have serious issues. Even in the heavy winds, we had a storm staysail flying, to keep the bow down wind. I had the engine ticking over constantly at 1200 RPM to always have prop wash against the rudder. (Diesels run fine on their sides). We both wore custom made floatation vests, which also protected our ribs, if we were thrown, plus wore inflatable 35# flotation life jackets. We had the life sling, two MOB poles, with horseshoe buoy's drogue and strobes attached. our safety harnesses had "crotch" straps--and I don't see how we could have been pulled out. We had one short and one long attachment tether--always one attached. We never went on deck alone without the other person awake (the boat had a steering station in the pilot house), and we were on auto pilot 98% of the time, even in the storms. The only time off pilot, was when the dog had to do her duty...she had a safe harness and life jacket also. We had large winches, plus both a manual and a 4,000 lb capacity electric windlass with capstan, which we could lead hoisting halyards to.
We had a hard dinghy in davits, and it had a lot of floatation, plus we carried a large heavy duty inflatable on the foredeck. But in storm conditions, if you leave the larger boat, you are in very serious trouble. We had two EPRiB--one in the companionway, one in the raft. Lots of survival and repair gear aboard. Many tools, even a drill press, bench grinder and welder; with power tools, we could fabricate a number of items necessary. We carried both metal and wood stocks just in case--as well as two stays, as long as the longest on the boat, with Norseman fittings for terminals, with spares for most ever thing from sails sewing machine, extra dacron, sail tape, to engine injectors, injector and lift pumps, head gaskets; did a valve job on the generator in mid ocean once....So you do have to be prepared.
On the Nordhavn Trans Atlantic Rally one of the trawlers tangled a free floating fishing net in the running gear==dead in the water. One of the younger men from the larger vessels dove and cleared it after dinghying over. We carried 5 scuba tanks and Hooka gear with 100 foot hoses in case of underwater work. (I also had to clear a blue plastic tarp off the prop in the Med, as well as some floating net lines). Is a trawler safer? Perhaps, but they often are not as self righting as a proper ocean crossing sailboat, and have a higher center of gravity, with often more exposed glass etc...so there are tradeoffs. One of the reasons we took our major voyages between the ages of 45 and 60 was because of strength and health issues which are predictable as we all age.
Also before our long ocean passages, I had done a number of long distance ocean crossing races, (like the Transpac) and Marie had thousands of miles of open ocean cruising.
Be safe and keep loved ones close at hand. _________________ Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL |
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localboy
Joined: 30 Sep 2006 Posts: 4656 City/Region: Lake Stevens via Honolulu
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: 'Au Kai (Ocean Traveler)
Photos: 'AU KAI
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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Sad... _________________ "We can go over there...behind the 'little one'....."
Wife to her husband pointing @ us...from the bow of their 50-footer; Prideaux Haven 2013
Last edited by localboy on Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bobjarrard
Joined: 03 Oct 2010 Posts: 458 City/Region: Boulder City
State or Province: NV
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Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:54 pm Post subject: Great post there!! Some zero as in no cost safety items |
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Great adds to my post. I have only sailed along the coast but I did a fair share of that. I would rather be in a sailboat that a trawler in really bad weather but I would rather not be in really bad weather. I have raced offshore where you were wet from the moment you left the cabin, no fun at my age of 70+ so I will skip that. I would like to suggest a few more things, not one of which costs a single penny.
#1 Mental attitude and preparedness. You have to have a will to live, a desire to succeed, and the willingness to suffer a bit and still come out OK to be a survivor in the worst of conditions. These traits can be developed, our US Marines do it all the time.
#2 Having your spiritual house in order, that means having faith when all else fails and allowing faith to foster hope is key to long term survival in cold water. Here is one versions of this concept: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/kidding-ourselves/201405/the-remarkable-power-hope
May none of our C-Brat friends ever need all the safety items we own but if we do come to a point of need, may your will to survive be as great or even greater than your preparation.
Bob Jarrard |
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ssobol
Joined: 27 Oct 2012 Posts: 3384 City/Region: SW Michigan
State or Province: MI
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: SoBELLE
Photos: SoBelle
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:39 am Post subject: |
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One thing comes to mind, even if you are in trawler in heavy seas and someone goes overboard, would the operator be skilled enough to be able to reverse course (or circle around) in those conditions to pick someone up without making the situation worse?
In addition to the proper gear for the conditions you are sailing in, this incident also suggests that one should have some means of self rescue and the body strength to use it. Even older people can benefit from physical and agility training.
IMO, it is better to be well prepared (or avoid such situations in the first place) than to expect that faith or hope will save the day when the *hi* hits the fan. |
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bobjarrard
Joined: 03 Oct 2010 Posts: 458 City/Region: Boulder City
State or Province: NV
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:19 am Post subject: Civil War lesson |
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In the Civil war, before there was modern military basic training that changed how one thought, young men were found dead with fully loaded but unfired weapons. They had the equipment but not the will to kill. Ask anyone who is involved with training others in self defense or in challenging activities and you will hear over and over, aptitude, training, equipment, and opportunity mean nothing if you do not have the right attitude. But then, as my partner says, the reason we have so many flavors of ice cream is so that everyone can have a choice. Life is all about choices is it not? Guess I fall on the side of do what you can with what you have school of thought.
Bob
PS: For me, flipping a plastic switch and fully expecting a bunch of lights to go on is as act of faith. I do not need faith and hope to predict that the sun will come up in the morning however as the former is a work of man and the latter has a more substantive power behind it. BJ |
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