yet more power related questions from a noobie

computer-rooter

Greetings, bratsters from tropical SITKA! CoolSmile

I'm new to the forum, the website, and um -- well -- to C-Dory as well. I've been "grandsoned" mine from my son who moved south and decided to keep the motorcycle. So I'm now the proud owner of a 1982, 22' C-Dory and my son's credit card bill ("Gee, Dad -- I'm giving you two things -- what's the problem?"). I'm not sure of the hull design (angler, classic, etc.). Mine has a transom with a low spot in the middle for the motor and high, straight walls to either side. Up front there is a cabin (duhh!) with a skylight on the raised part over the berths. The cabin isn't as big as some I've seen, but is perhaps bigger than others. It steers from the right and leans to the left. Hope someone can tell me what the proper name for the hull is . . . .but, that's not my question area really.
After reading the plethora of posts on this forum, I realize you guys know your boats. I was hoping to find specific answers to my questions in the archives, but failing that, and wanting to know before I buy, I'm gonna ask things that ought to be obvious to all but me.
I have this Suzuki 2-stroke 90hp powerplant right now. It's good for about 2mpg regardless of the speed I run it. It's an early 90s model as near as I can tell, and between the hard starting, the stink, the noise and the fuel economy, I think I'd rather install oarlocks than continue running it. In fact, I generally use it only when I think I'll need the power for maneuvering in Sitka Sound. The rest of the time I putt about on an 8 horse kicker, which delivers 5knots (will do more, but the fuel consumption goes from about 8mpg to cwap at over 5.5knots). So, I want to repower. I've read the opinions on twins vs single/kicker, and for economy reasons I'll stick with a single. I have the kicker for redundancy, and no tight turns into the dock, so I don't need to spin it in its own length. My questions are about weight/horsepower issues. I was thinking the smallest motor that would get me on step without throwing a rod would be the most economical way to go, and the lightness of the smaller units would increase my fuel economy and payload. After reading the posts I'm not so sure -- this rear weight in the following sea issue seems to be significant. So HOW MUCH TRANSOM WEIGHT IS TOO MUCH? HOW LITTLE SINGLE MOTOR IS TOO LITTLE? (I'd like to get 25knots reliably in perfect water) HOW LONG SHOULD THE SHAFT BE? (20", 25", __"?) I have a line on a 130hp honda 4-stroke (are all hondas 4-stroke?). The asking price for this 2000 model (still on warranty) is $4000. I can't touch a new 70hp anything for that . . . and I might be able to talk him down. WILL THIS SINK THE "RAGING FERRET"? CAN A 130HP MOTOR BE SAFELY RUN ON A 22' C-DORY? (I am not a hotrodder -- will the power curve be in the wrong place) What about fuel consumption vs your choice of the smallest practical single? What about trim -- will I be planing while tied up to the dock?
Please remember I'm an idiot and be gentle in your rebukes . . .
Oh -- and thanks in advance for any thoughts. Smile

-- Computer-rooter

Sea Wolf · Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:48 pm Post subject:

computer-rooter:

Welcome to the Pub! Plenty of room here for all C-Dory owners and wanna-be's! I'm sure you'll fit right in.

Tropical Sitka is a beautiful place and I'll just bet it's a lot warmer than a lot of the upper Mid-West. Are you in the minus degrees Fahrenheit much of the time? Helena, Montana had a high of 0 the other day and a low of -15.

Congradulations on your double-gifted C-Dory! Hope the balance sheet is in your favor! Kids are like that, sometimes.

Your '82 is a "Classic", like all 1981-1986 22 ft. models.
I described the classic design in the recent C-Dory Charts thread.

Most of us seem to think you need about 70 or more hp on a 22. Less and you have problems when your boat loads sooner or later go up.

There's no absolute cut off point on total engine weight. The typical Honda 75 or 90 with a 4 stroke kicker comes in a little under 500 lbs (373 + 90-110 lbs). If you're looking for economy, you DO want to keep the total down, however, and that also definitely goes for what you're carrying in the hull as well, as one can add several hundred pounds of extra water, fuel, cooking gear, sleeping bags, clothes, drinks, fishing gear, tools, parts, etc.!!!

If you're concerned about economy, and you're going to keep the kicker, (can't tell from your post if you're planing on doing that or how much it weighs), you'll want to find a main motor for about 380 lbs or less.

Actually, you will probably find out that you like the new 4-stroke motor so much that you don't even run the kicker, and really don't need it for back up/redundancy either. In this case, you'll still do better off with a strong enough single engine w/o unnecessary weight. Read: 350-380 lbs, unless you can afford a 90 hp e-tech at about 330 lbs.

The big block Suzi at 416 is also a great and muscular motor, but definitely heavier, and with more gas using displacement.

The Honda 130 weighs 496 lbs and has 2254 cc (137 cu.in.), both a bit too much, especially if economy is your goal. (Most 75-90 hp motors have about 1600 cc's, about 100 cu. in.) It's about 30% too heavy, and 35% too large in displacement.

The 130 Honda will also make your boat feel much heavier in the transom, both in riding swells, and in initiating planing. It may also be an insurance issue, depending on your company.

Your transom is set up for a 20 inch motor shaft (long).

short = 15 inch (small engines only)
long = 20 inch
x-long = 25 inch

Good Luck with your search. You'll be wonderfully pleased with a new 4-stroke main (or e-tech). Time to give up smoking 2 strokes for good, especially in beautful Sitka!

We have another member up there, Ken / Chivita, who is a hotel manager in Sitka, if I remember correct. Look him up on the C-Brat Membership list and say hello!

Joe.

Sawdust · Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:02 pm Post subject:

Computer guy,

Not a dumb question in the bunch, and you'll get lots of varied answers.

The 130 Honda is a great engine but just too heavy for the 22. If you want to be able to do 22-23 knots (a bit fast for the CD22 hull unless in flat water) you need a 90-100 hp engine.

I've never had a weight aft problem for my personal use, but I boat a bit differently than Red Fox. The 22 was originally designed for a 2-stroke, usually in the 70 h.p. range, and the boat will plane nicely with 50 hp -- but that's on the underpowered side for most applications. I've run the 22 with a 70 hp 4-stroke, and that is enough to do a good job for me. If you run heavy, then 90 hp+ is the only way to go. The older boats have a placard speed of no more than 90 h.p. and the new hulls go to 100 hp.

HTH,

Dusty

computer-rooter · Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:35 pm Post subject:

Sitka is yummy warm this time of year, thanks. We've been in the mid-hi 40s all week, and it's just tonight dipping into the mid 30s. Come to Alaska, where it's warm in the winter! CoolSmile

To add to my prevoius post, I have no problem with the power of the suzuki 90. It's capable of scooting the boat along faster than I care to go. With the hull squeaky clean and new spark plugs, it does 30knots on perfect water. I'm like most of you though, and seldom run above 20 and cruise at about 12-14. Water conditons and my need for speed are generally the limiting factors. The only real reasons I am eyeing this 130 is the price, which seems to me to be an inexpensive upgrade to 4-stroke, and it's available right now. Judging from these first two answers (thanks guys!) I can see that the 130 is 30% (at least) overpowering as well as overweighting. I'd be better holding out for lighter 70 or 90 and use the weight savings for more fuel. Anyone wanna trade against my suzuki?

Oh -- and I am keeping the kicker. It's a nissan or some off-brand I forget right now. But with less than 10 hours on it, it survived the "catastrophic mount failure" described in other threads, and despite having to haul it out by the fuel line and hang it up to dry, it still works good after the first 100hr. They make those fuel lines pretty strong! Cool

Sawdust · Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:38 pm Post subject:

The 9.9 Nissan (Tohatsu) is a good kicker. I use one on my Rampage. The Honda 130 Honda (great engine) has been replaced by a 135 that is lighter and quite a bit more fuel efficient, so any dealer that has a 130 will be discounting heavily. Love Sitka!

Dusty

Redƒox · Guest

I find I can "spin it on its own length" with my 8 and the tiller handle. One reason it works so well is cuz my '8' is the new high-thrust Yamaha! they have about as much reverse-thrust as they do in forward! To my knowledge, only Yamaha has a TRUE highthrust design! look at the size of its lower-unit and the prop for instance... nuthin cheesy about it. I recall visiting that dealer out by Stargavin. seems they sell just about all brands there!

Me and old Duster do indeed boat different. I would slap that 130 Honda on without hesitation! The more permanent-weight you have on transom... the more weight you can safely load in the other end of the boat, without getting ill handling affects from being too bow-heavy. If indeed the Classic was designed for the 70 Johnson, I say only empty with a lite-passenger! LOL LOL

Hopefully this summer the RedFox will not be too far from where your at! Spent a small part of my childhood there! Sister is still there too! She still has her fast old boat I made up for her. Lookin to sell it though.... :0(

I once had a 55 commercial Evenrude on the RedFox somebody gave me when I was poor... when lite, it would snap that baby on-step in a heartbeat! I really liked that engine on it, but almost had no heavyrigging options that way, and out in the open sea with a couple passengers it was anemic!

computer-rooter · Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:32 pm Post subject:

Thanks to all who posted replies to my questions! You've all given really good information and experience-based opinions. While I pondered them all, the 130hp Honda got sold, so nobody needs to worry about me pushing my transom through the cabin due to overpowering. Smile

However, I am left in a power void. I've pretty much decided I'm keeping the single/kicker combination, and a 4-stroke between 80 and 115HP will suffice for my intended loading configurations and travel expectaions. The twins seem cool, but more of a rich man's rigging than anything I can afford to purchase and maintain. So, if any of you shop folk (or others) out there have a reliable, affordable power option for sale in that range, I'd be happy to hear about it, either as a reply here or email me at dpazar@ptialaska.net.

Jimbo · Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:51 pm Post subject:

computer rooter
If your transom on the 1982 is the same as my 1981 you can only run a single, so that's another problem solved for you.
Merry Ho Ho Ho
Jimbo

computer-rooter · Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 2:19 am Post subject:

I guess the C-Dory compensates for it's lack of self-bailing with self-decision-making. I'll take all the help I can get. Razz

Chivita · Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:32 pm Post subject:

Now, for the rest of the story!

What computer-rooter has not shared with this group is how well he will fit in with C-Brats! I will try not to embarrass him, but I will say he would be a VERY welcome addition to the annual C-Brat gathering down at the Seattle Boat Show! He has a motorbike that he hand built that is simply a beauty! Imagine Greg working on road bike instead of the Red Fox and you'll get the idea.

He is a well known Alaskan photographer that has some amazing Aurora Borealis shots! This guy is known for his dedication for getting the photo that no one else can.

When he chose "computer-rooter" as his name, he was yet again being modest as he is equally well known for his computing ability. A large amount of Sitka's computer systems exist and do so seemlessly due to his ability. Remember this is a wet island facing the open sea regularily visited by winter gales that would paralyze most communities, but despite the power spikes, outages and the lack of a Comp USA/Egghead/Bestbuy or ANY nationally known computer supply chain store, this guy keeps Sitka computing!

Most of all, he will tell it like it is, even if that means he would lose the sale. Kind of like Sawdust and his family! As someone who has dealt with computer-rooter on several occasions, I vouch for his membership into this fine group of Boat nuts! Computer-rooter is a C-Brat kinda guy!

Chivita · Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 5:14 pm Post subject:

Good Grief, discovered yet another C-Dory owner up here! Two in one week!! He has a 16ft classic C-Dory and the owner is yet another of Sitka's finest.

He has a few cracks in his transom and is looking for ideas on how to repair or replace them. Hopefully he will join us in the near future but he is currently quite busy working with a group that is trying to keep Sitka sane and unique. The Cruise ship industry would love to park a couple dozen ships up here everyday like they do in several other small Alaska towns and he is a part of a group that is trying to bring sanity to the situation.