NO MORE!!!"Pinholes" leaking water into dinette st

[CatyMae n Steve]

I decided to start this thread so I didn't hijack flapbreaker's water pump thread.

We've been having water in the cabin area when it rains. Steve initially thought it was the bilge area not being sealed completely where it's supposed to be sealed. The dealer had broken the top cover away from the door wall where you can step on the housing and shored it up to repair the damage -- but missed sealing it completely. That leak causes water to appear in the storage area at the rear of the cabin under the stove. The dealer has seen this before and can fix it.

Last weekend at Newport, amid one of the rainstorms in the evening, Steve and I took a look with a flashlight in the storage area under the dinette (that area gets wet in the rain too, but we thought it was running from the stove area, across the floor to that storage -- but this time we didn't see much water (other than what I dripped off my raingear) on the floor area. The flashlight hit glistening water on the wall. There were tracks of water -- not just normal condensation, but streamlets of water. Steve wiped them with a towel and they immediately reformed, pooling on the lip at the top of the storage. These pinholes are at various heights in the wall, all seemingly in the area of the accent stripe location on the outside. They are not visible on the outside (though Steve thought on our drive home after dropping the boat with the dealer, he wishes we'd blown air from the inside to see if we saw anything on the outside). So, with the location, it doesn't appear it would be the rubrail screws that've been the issue in other boats. The guy who does all the work on the boat at the dealers could see at least 4 holes with the naked eye. He said he's never seen anything like that before and was really scratching his head.

I don't know anything about working with fiberglass (other than it smells really bad ar ar ar) but wonder if maybe it was worked too fast and has air pockets in it...what kinda damage would that do to the boat long term if that's the case...if they seal it, aren't they sealing water into the walls of the boat? We're concerned about this, since we plan to keep this boat til we can't boat any longer and we prefer it not to sink! ar ar ar

[flagold]

I did a lot of warranty glass work for a Cessna dealer in the 70's, and it will pinhole with roven weave if you don't brush enough liquid glass on at a location, or if the glass runs off (which can happen if it's brushed on at an angle. If you brush the glass on the weave, the weave soaks up a certain amount, and it can pinhole. You really won't notice it unless it's a large hole, since the liquid glass is shiney and you really can't see the holes. The tipoff that you might get pinholing is if the glass indents on the weave more than 1/2 the thickness of the weave. The other extreme is you brush on to much glass and it simply runs off.

I doubt any integrity problem, but you might want to brush some liquid glass over whatever repair they do from the inside if they don't do it that way to begin with. Immediately go to the outside of the boat and check to see if any liquid glass is on the outside and wipe it off if it is and your pinhole is repaired.

PS: that problem isn't near as bad as I thought -- I had envisioned a long length (4 ft) of pinholes going down the top of a weave seam.

[TyBoo]

Are you sure they aren't fish hook holes? Steve isn't as handy with the fishing gear as you are, ya know.

It has long been my understanding that the fiberglass itself is not waterproof, but sealed by the gelcoat. I don't know where I got that understanding, so maybe someone can enlighten us?

That is a weird one, for sure. I'm sorry to here you're having this kind of frustration on a brand new boat. Just be glad it rarely rains in Oregon.

[CatyMae n Steve]

hmmm...he asked me to show him how tie up mooching rigs...wonder if I need to inspect for errant hooks! I've only seen them stuck in his fingers before though

I'm sure they'll fix whatever it is...it's still no comparison to getting a new 26' 2000 SeaSwirl and it being in the shop more than my possession in the first 6 months of ownership! I'm sure they'll figure it out and get it fixed...the seal ring in the hydraulic steering went out too...rust comes out and drips all over everywhere...minor things, eh?

Just thinking about the gelcoat being what makes it waterproof...yikes! Could mean the gelcoats compromised? yeowie!

[TyBoo]

Not to worry. Them CD guys will be all over this one. "Yikes!" and "yeowie!" are not words they like to see associated with a brand new boat.

Sorry about your Seaswirl. And thanks for not posting the words you used five months into it.

[Sneaks]

Ignorance requesting enlightenment here:

Isn't the seam between the hull and the deck located under the rub rail?

Isn't the hull balsa cored almost all the way up to the actual seam?

Good lord, if the pinholes are in the area that's cored, I'd be lobbying the dealer for a factory fix.

Don

[flagold]

Tyboo: fiberglass is waterproof. There is a misconception amongst many because of fiberglass blistering (water intrusion), from poor glass methods. One of the better descriptions I've seen is here:

Cheap Resins

If a boat manufacturer uses a cheaper grade of resin in the manufacturing of the boat, i.e. one that is not all together not water permeable, it is only a matter of time before those blisters show up. No, it wasn't the marina's fault. It was the foundation of the boat hull.

Too Much Hardener in the Gelcoat

If the boat manufacturer put a bit too much hardener in the resin mix this will also cause blistering. But these blisters are going to show up before the boat ever leaves the manufacturers yard. This is because hardners mixed with the resins cause the mixture to heat up. The more harder that is added the hotter the mixture becomes. Many times a boat hull will develop blisters right in the mold, as the gelcoat bubbles and blisters.

Too Much Hardener in the Fiberglass

If the manufacturer used too much hardener in the fiberglass itself, some problems could occur that will lay the path for the gelcoat to later blister or incur stress cracks. Fiberglass is a little bit more forgiving than gelcoat where too much hardener is concerned. None the less, it is not a foundation which is desirable in the building of a boat. Too much hardener in the fiberglass will cause the fiberglass resin to have it's strength compromised, or even to become brittle and to crack. Then when the gelcoat is applied, it lays on top of a surface which will later break down with flexing and movement.

Not Enough Wetting

This is another case which will cause the blisters to show up at some later time, more than likely. When the manufacturer "lays up" the fiberglass of the hull, if they don't use enough resin to really soak that fiberglass mat down well, it leaves some dry areas of fiberglass mat. Fiberglass mat is composed of fiberglass shards all woven or pressed together. If wetted properly, the mat will become soaked with resin and not only soaked through, but will also have a smooth layer of resin (or what appears to be) over the top of the fiberglass as well. This makes a nice foundation for the application of the gelcoat finish. But with dry areas this is not the case. With dry areas of matting, all is lost. There is no soaking, no smoothness. When gelcoat is applied, though it may not be very visible at the time, the gelcoat lies on top of a somewhat dry peace of cloth mat. The gelcoat itself will try to bond with that, but it won't be able to hold it's own. It needed the help of the sub layers of laminents. Little bonding will take place, if any at all, between the fiberglass layer and the gelcoat. This in turn, will allow the gelcoat to separate from the fiberglass at that particular spot.

The Void

No, this isn't like a black hole in outer space were talking about, but it is what occurs when fiberglass is not pressed and saturated properly in the manufacturing process of the boat. What happens is this: The fiberglass mat, if it is not pressed or rolled enough to the point where it is all smooth, and if scuff sanding is not done thoroughly, a hull can wind up with little low spots, valley's or ditches in it's surface. The surface not being completely flat, even if it is a very small divot barely viewable by the eye, can cause major problems for the boat surface. If premium resins were not used, then scuff sanding is necessary to help the gelcoat to bond with the fiberglass. If there are smooth areas on the fiberglass (i.e. shiny) because of low spots that were not scuffed, the gelcoat may not bond well, if at all. Again, when the boat goes pounding across the water, the weak, unbonded gelcoat surface gives way. Voids by the way, can occur anywhere on the boat, even on the upper decks and the bridge.

What can cause blisters to show up later on?

Depending upon which error the manufacturer made, blisters don't always show up immediately. Sometimes they just show up unexpectedly. If the layers of fiberglass mat were dry in some areas, when the boat pounds across the water, and because the gelcoat was not bonded well, or at all with the fiberglass, the gelcoat may become weakened and it will flex. This can in turn cause a tiny little stress crack to appear on that area of gelcoat. The small stress crack then allows water to be forced in and under the surface of the gel, which in turn causes a blister to appear. Pressure washing can have the same effect. But again, it is not the fault of the marina or the guy who does the pressure wash for you. If the foundational structure and the surface of the hull were what they should be, then pressure washing will cause no problems for your boat.
If the fiberglass had too much hardener put in it during the manufacturing process, when the boat then pounds across the water, because the fiberglass strength was compromised, it can shatter because it was brittle. When the fiberglass shatters underneath, the gelcoat has no choice but to crack or to blister.

What must be done?

There are several methods to take care of the blistering problem. All of them can be costly. Depending upon how you want to approach your blistering problem, effects the outcome of the problem solving. Are there just a few blisters? Is your hull covered with them? Do you want to try to rectify the problem for good? Do you want to spend a little money or a lot of money?

The Approaches

Yes there are several ways you can go about maintaining a boat that has blister problems. Of course there is only one way this should be done to stave the problem off for good, but this is not always what the boat owner wants to do, or has to do.

A few blisters here and there

If you have only a few blisters, they can be taken care of individually as they come. Many boat owners prefer to do it this way because it can be less costly for them if they don't plan on keeping that boat for many more years. I have seen some boat owners not even care to fix their blistering at all, but I must assume that if you have read this far, it is because you most likely want to do something about it. You can, if you wish, have each blister fixed individually. The process involves grinding each blister down to the good fiberglass underneath, and fresh new glass being put in and then gelcoat applied. This is the best way for you to tackle a few blisters here and there without spending a ton of money to have your entire bottom done. Typically, blisters can show up here and there each year. It's a question of whether you want to spend a little each year, or if you want to spend a lot at once. But know this, that even if you think you are going to get out of the blistering problem simply, by this method, you can be deceived! If the fiberglass mat underneath the surface is a mess, and there are millions of white spots and voids or unsaturated fibers, all of which are going to conduct water via the capillary effect, then the fiberglass will have to be ground back and down to a point where good glass can be found. And sometimes this can reveal a very large surface area!

Catymae: funny you mention that -- I'm taking my Whaler Montauk down this afternoon to the shop for repairs -- steering, except my wheel ate the front seal and fluid is dripping down on the gelcoat and discoloring it . . . Of course the CD is down with the Wallas out and misc. tools laying everywhere, its wires, and fuel line disconected. Great when things are working right though.

[Ron on Meander]

We too are getting water on the floor of the cabin of our 25 when it rains or when we are out cruising, especially if its rough. I think it is coming from the bilge area and through pin holes or just plain holes that weren't sealed between the bilge and the cabin bulk head. At least I hope thats where it is coming from and not through the side of the boat. Our dealer up here in BC is supposed to be sending it back to the factory for repair. Its kind of a PITA to have to mop the floor on a regular basis to keep from having to walk in water.
I think a lot of the water that gets into the bilge area leaks in past the two cockpit floor deck hatches which don't fit very tightly and certainly aren't capable of keeping water out. Has anyone else noticed their cockpit floor hatches leaking and getting a considerable amount of water in the bilge?

CateMae & Steve good luck on the repair, I hope it goes well.

Ron

[Alyssa Jean]

Ron, My 25 has a small leak also. I have tracked it down to coming in through the seam under the trim strip behind the head. It ends up coming into the space under the galley on the outside chine area and then spilling over the top and down into the cabin. I am heading into the factory tomorrow for some repairs.

[CatyMae n Steve]

there aren't any blisters or anything visible on the outside...only inside the cabin...we'll see...dealer is closed Mondays, but I'll certainly be on the phone the next couple of days to see what they find out.

[Ron on Meander]

[CatyMae n Steve]

I called the dealer yesterday to find out what they discovered on the leaks. He said it has to be the rubrail screws, and had his guy working to fix that. He's hoping the forecasted rain for today will cooperate to test his theory and the fix. He seems to think that will take care of it and we should be able to get the boat back Friday. He also said there's no leak from the bilge area into the storage area under the stove and they won't be working on that. Steve and I have seen it, but perhaps he'll see it if it rains today, or if they put a hose in the back (or a cup of water directly in the hold) to get the bilge going...it'll trail right inside at the corner because Steve can't get under the hose to seal it off. We'll see what happens. We'll be doing our own testing when we get the boat back.

[CatyMae n Steve]

Well, the CatyMae is home again. When I crawled inside at the dealer's, I immediately looked at the wall and yes, there was water coming into the cabin. They'd changed the batteries to the port side and taken it for a spin on the river, and they don't know if that's new water from last night's rain, or if it's leftover and just got stirred up with them putting the boat in the water. The dealer says they've done all they can do, and if it turns out to still be an issue, it'll have to go back to the factory. Moving the batteries seems to have leveled the boat in the water though...nice not to be listing and I still like the idea someone had of a level on the dash. I saw a shiny rod that the hydraulic steering is operated on...no more rust leaking out...and I didn't see any moisture in the tilt gauge, so am guessing we have a spanky new one. I'm hoping we'll get out on the river tomorrow (and hoping for rain...go figure!) to see if the rubrail repairs fixed it. Some sturgeon fishing sure sounds good! They said they saw no evidence of leaking from the bilge into the storage area under the stove...we'll see what happens!

[DodgeRam]

Hi Catymae n Steve , I to have a leak on SEARAM in the cabin , took me for ever to figure out where the water was coming from! It might be a long shot but when I was looking at your pictures , I notice that you have a rod holder on the wall of the cockpit below the window.My boat is strored outside in the driveway bow all the way up and leaning slightly to starboard side, after many weeks of trying to figure out were the water was coming from , I noticed one day after putting the strarboard side panel on my canvas top that the water stop coming in the cabin from under the stove. What was happening is the water was running of the corner of the roof , than running down on the window around my dual control on the wall , than a small amount of water managed to get behind the control box, than down the outside wall and inside the cabin. I know exactly I you guys fell about trying to find the leak , bent over inside that small cabinet no fun . Gary SEARAM

[CatyMae n Steve]

Looks like we won't be going fishing...bilge isn't working either...(that's a new owie) and the water is still leaking through small pinsized holes in the side of the cabin. When I brought it home, I left it outside the cover and voila, there's a steady stream incoming. We dried it up and put it under the cover. If it's dry in the morning, we'll run water on the outside of that side of the boat and if it starts running inside again, we'll be taking it back to go back to the factory. If the fiberglass is compromised, Steve's envisioning the boat cracking into pieces and sinking...not a good thought!