Water Tank Moved to Bow in CD 22

[Phil Barnes]

Has anyone done the work to place a water tank in the bow of a CD 22? It would involve cutting out the deck under the bow cushions, removing the foam, sizing and placing a new tank, installing a new fill port and running lines aft to the sink. Advantage is moving weight forward and freeing up storage under the dinette seat. It would likely go in the center of the boat, just in front of where the porta potty sits. Interested in experience and issues with this modification. Thanks in advance!

[Aurelia]

One simple example here: look for the picture of the red tank

http://www.c-brats.com/modules.php?set_albumName=c-dore&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

Other folks have removed the tank and replaced it with a smaller tank in the same position or under the galley.

Greg

[ssobol]

I have been considering this mod. My berth already had no foam and the factory access hatches. Having the weight up front would be nice. I would expect that for a lot of my cruising I would have the water there for ballast more than anything else. Maybe I should just get some lead shot and put it up there to try the weight out.

The issues with moving the tank that come to mind include:

1. Finding a tank that fits. The space is not all that large and is oddly shaped for a tank. To get a decent capacity, the water tank will need to be somewhat "bow" shaped. I found one that might fit. I am planning on making a foam board model of the tank and see if it fits. Most smaller tanks are rectangular and not a good fit for the space. A tank of decent capacity is bigger than you might expect.

2. The top of the compartment will need to be cut out (larger than the hatch size) to get the tank in. This will involve making some arrangement so that a good piece of the berth area can be removed and reinstalled.

3. Supporting the tank. A 20 gal tank weighs about 180# when full. According to the tank vendor, plastic tanks need to supported at most every two inches. Ribs will need to be made that will carry the tank weight to the hull. The tank will also need to be supported on the sides, front, and back to prevent shifting. This will likely require 10-12 unique shaped ribs to support the tank. These will be time consuming and a big PITA to make. I was thinking that expanding high density foam (like what is put in some of the berth compartments) might work and be easier to install.

4. Plumbing. You can either run hoses from the existing filler or add new ones. I was thinking of adding a new filler and vent near the bow with the hoses running through the anchor rode well. In my case this would also require moving the anchor well drain to the other side of the bow. A hose would also need to be run from the front tank through the side berth compartment and back under the side cabinets to the existing floor pump.

5. I was thinking of adding an access plate at the aft facing part of the berth cutout for the porta potti. This will allow access to the back side of the tank. I was planning on putting a drain valve there for servicing the water tank.

6. Leaks. One problem with this installation is that if a leak develops in the tank or the hoses, you might not notice it for awhile. You could end up with a lot of water loose in the bow area and under the floor (similar to what happens when the keel rub strip screws leak). The foam installation method would make checking this difficult.

I did take out the factory tank. The extra storage in the cabin is very useful. In our case we have not missed the lack of a water tank. We just use a plastic water jug that holds about 3 gallons. We don't cruise in wilderness areas or go out for more than 3-4 days at a time. We usually sufficient access to other water supplies for washing dishes and showering, so the water tank is not a necessity at this time. In the future we would like to take longer trips and it will likely be a bigger issue then.

Another issue with having water on board is dumping the grey water. The C-Dory sink just goes overboard. In a lot of places this is a big NO NO. So having to wash dishes and the like off board makes disposing of the waste water a non issue. We put the dirty dishes in a plastic bag and wash them when we get a chance. There is also the use of paper plates and cups that helps with the washing up issues.

[doubles]

We had an "inflatable" second tank on our old Tollycraft in the bow. Never had an issue. Here is a link to some versions....


http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?path=-1%7C51%7C2234299&id=2234300

[thataway]

For the tank, go to Ronco water tanks:

For example the Product -B294: is made for installation in a V section, and is an 18 gallon tank. It may be a bit too wide, and not deep enough for the area you have in mind. Fittings can be placed anywhere you want. There are several hundred tank configurations available.

Some of the 25's have the water tank on the port side under the aft part of the V berth. This presents less issues than putting the tank in the middle. (The fill and vent tubes can be back in aft corner of the forward cabin. If you had to snake it thru to the middle of the bunk area, I suspect you may have issues with filling. If you put the fill along the middle of the bunk, it takes up sleeping room, but could be worked in.

I am always cautious of getting too much weight in the bow, especially if you have to run down wind/waves in heavy seas, and can get bow steering. This is why I prefer to get bow down with trim tabs and a Permatrim. A lot of where you place the tank, depends on what your normal weight distribution is.

Getting the line to the sink is easy--from the center, go along the Starboard side, and under the foot rest of the helm seat, to under the galley. Even if you put the tank on the port side, I would still run the line this way.

I would take all of the foam out--except maybe some way forward--and make access and storage. putting the tank in is not really a problem. You can easily make cleats to hold the fiberglass you took out back in place.

[Sunbeam]

Just a couple of side thoughts, which you may already be considering.

One is that the v-berth top is cored, which provides strength to it. There is also some strength in the footwell shaping (and at least in my boat the footwell is supported by some "hard" foam). So, if that is removed, it should probably be put back somehow (the strength I mean). There are numerous ways.

Two is probably obvious, but make sure any tank you are considering can fit in the cabin door and through whatever size v-berth opening you have (from the main cabin).

Three is that the coring in the hull of the boat (at least in the 22) stops around 5" forward of the V-berth/main cabin bulkhead. I wouldn't worry about this in the water, but you might take a look at your trailer bunks and see if you think the support would be fine if you were trailering with a full tank.

Points one and two make a flexible tank attractive (also a flexible tank uses no vent). I've never been entirely comfortable with them because I have this idea (which may or may not be correct) that the "softer" the plastic the less neutral it is. Also I don't know of any way to really scrub out a flexible tank. But they do solve some problems.

Oh, one other thing about water weight inside the boat is that oftentimes it's a really variable weight (tank is empty; tank is full, etc.). This may or may not be a good thing depending on your boat balance; just something to think about. Some other loads (batteries, etc.) are more unchanging, weight-wise. While underway there are trim tabs, etc.; but my boat (for reasons other than the water tank) had an annoying list to starboard (until I corrected it) and the part that really annoyed me was the list at anchor. No way to take that away with trim tabs. Plus it always looked a little sad sack in photos that way.

[jennykatz]

Another way just buy all anchor chain for your anchor this will add 100-200lb up front if needed

[ssobol]

This was the tank I was considering:

http://www.ronco-plastics.net/newRonco/product_details.php?prodID=365

This one might work too:

http://www.ronco-plastics.net/newRonco/product_details.php?prodID=382

They keep adding new tanks to the catalog.

The problem with fitting a tank is that the bow compartment tapers sharply as you go forward.

[Blue Rose]

We installed a flexible triangular Plastimo tank in the bow of our 22'. (Pictures are in our photo album). The installation, running hoses, etc was not difficult. IMO moving the tank forward is a big improvement but there are some advantages and disadvantages that should be considered for yourself.

Moving the tank forward into a little used space opened up the area under the rear dinette seat for another purpose. (We installed a Dometic CF-50 there). IMO more weight forward makes the overall boat ride much smoother. If it is really rough chop (or if the tank is empty) I still lower the bow using motor trim & tabs but most of the time I just use the trim tabs now to adjust for side to side. I have not had any problems with bow steering because of the shift in weight. (The water can be jettisoned to lighten the bow if needed). Also the tank can be easily removed from the boat for inspection and cleaning.

OTOH it's hard to estimate how much water is in the tank. Until we come up with a better solution, we have to lift the bed cushion and visually check. Before trailering, the tank is drained to avoid adding unwanted tongue weight.

Jim

[Sunbeam]

Blue Rose:

Your album is a work of art (not to mention your C-Dory!). The Plastimo tank looks interesting, and it's good to hear your experience of the change in boat handllng having gone from the standard tank to the bow tank (sounds like an improvement).

Did you get the 120 liter tank, number 16658? (I'm guessing that one because even though it is 31 gallons it is triangular.)

I'm still running with my "modular" system of three 6-gallon jerry jugs in place of the stock tank in the aft/port seat base. Actually that system is working so well that if I keep the water there I may not change to a "permanent" tank. On the other hand, moving it to the bow is an interesting idea and having a real-world report is huge. I'll have to think about if it would be a negative to need to empty it before trailering. Probably not, and although it's nice to be able to fill ahead of time, there usually seems to be water near launch spots.

Thanks,
Sunbeam

[Blue Rose]

Thanks Sunbeam. It is the 31 gal model but the available space in the bow is limits filling to about 20 gals. I'm ok with that because the way we use water, 20 gals is enough for a week and the seams are not stressed so I'm less worried about a leak.

I like your modular system better than one larger tank because it is easier to "dump and fill" to keep water fresh and you only carry what you need. I would have followed your setup but the jugs didn't fit in the weird bow shape.

Draining before trailering is not a big deal, I just avoid trailering extra weight if I don't need to so I try to run down (fuel and water) tanks as much as I can. If there is just a few gals I leave it in or can use the foot-pump into the sink. The tank/bladder is not vented so a 1/2" hose is both the fill and drain line. I drain it by putting the hose end lower than the bladder and start a suction, it drains itself just like a waterbed in about 5-10 minutes.
Jim

[Sunbeam]

Thanks for the added info!

The modular system did work out really well for something I figured would be a relatively undesirable temporary stop-gap. The only thing "wrong" with it is that the way the handles stick up on top I lose some stowage space. Not a ton, but still something. Maybe other containers would fit better.

OTOH, utilizing that bow space (and knowing it doesn't make you "bow steer," which I wondered about).... that is brilliant! I could think of a lot more/handy things to use the normal water tank space for. The other thing is that the water constantly cycles from around 5 pounds to 160 lbs. So how nice to have it on centerline.

Can I ask how/where you use the hose for filling/dumping? Do you bring it out the anchor deck pipe? Or just out the main door into the cockpit? Or? I'm seriously considering this now.

I have a Waeco/Dometic 50 so am now going to see how you fit that where the water tank was

[Blue Rose]

The "move the tank" project is still a work in progress. Currently a 25ft hose is uncoiled from the forward compartment, through the cabin into the cockpit.

Getting to the forward compartment under the one-piece v-berth cushion is like wrestling "Gumby" so the future plan is to route the hose through the cabinets and bulkhead hole behind the Wallas to an RV type water connection permanently mounted in the starboard gunnel storage area. Ideally, all fill/drain operations should happen outside the cabin. Also thinking about installing inline water meters in both the fill hose and the pump hose to estimate water usage without accessing the bladder tank. The v-berth cushion is being remade into 3 pieces (4 if you count the middle) to make access easier to the other compartments too.

We took the boat out of storage to go to the Hontoon CBGT and noticed a "plastic" taste to the water that was not there last summer. Apparently I needed to pay more attention to the "clean and rinse before use" instructions that came in the box.
Guilty as Charged.
Jim

[Sunbeam]

To the good, sometimes a "work in progress" allows you to fine-tune your plans

I looked through your album (wow, great work!) because I had thought the ex-water-tank area (under port/aft seat) wouldn't quite fit my Dometic CF-50 (just by measurements - I never actually tried it). Then I saw your secret: Raise the whole shebang on port side by 4". Clever! More stowage, the CF-50, and better views.

Two more question on the water tank, if you don't mind (I would PM you, but I bet a number of Brats are interested in this tank):

One is about the plywood platform you built for it. I can see the aft bulkhead to keep it from trying to slide aft; but just wondering about the flat platform. Without that would it just "scrunch up" too much into the V of the hull? Or?

Two is that in doing some reading on these tanks, it's not good to overfill them. I guess it's too much head pressure on the fittings. But with a 25' hose to them (and no vent), how do you know when they are full? Do they push water through the sink faucet? Or?

By the way, I've been filling my "modular" tanks just by bringing a hose inside the cabin. Not "shippy," but at least in my case I'm right next to the cabin door. I use my own hose (so the outside is clean) with a pistol grip shutoff so I can control the flow right as I'm at the tanks. It's not as "proper" as a deck fill, and I have to be careful not to spill. On the other hand, no worries about contamination getting past the deck fill O-ring and no one can decide to open that fill (outside) and do whatever. I still think a deck fill is preferable, but either way has plusses and minuses. However, hunching over the v-berth would not be as fun. Speaking of which, I had been considering moving my house battery(s) up to the very aft end of the v-berth, port and starboard. What gave me pause was the fact that I sometimes store the boat in a warm/hot place and so might like to remove the batteries to cool storage. But just the idea of hunching over the v-berth to lift out two 65# batteries has me considering other alternatives. At least with the water tank forward you don't have to lift the weight in and out in one chunk!

[Blue Rose]

Of course I don't mind. Most of the modifications on my boat are a twist on ideas swiped from or inspired by other c-brats so I'm always happy to share!

You are correct about the purpose of the platform to support the bladder evenly. Letting the bladder "scrunch up" in the v would put unwanted creases in the vinyl material without gaining much volume.

Even though I use a pressurized hose to fill the bladder, I am careful not to pressurizing the bladder tank itself out of concern for both the fittings and the bladder seams. I quit filling when the bladder expands vertically to about 2 inches below the compartment hatch. I estimate that to be about 2/3 of its maximum 31 gal capacity. Because a less than full bladder expands and contracts relative to its water volume, an air vent is unnecessary. Both my port side deck fill and vent fittings are capped off inside the cabin to prevent "accidental" use.

I have also been thinking about moving the batteries (and electric connections) somewhere midships but have been reluctant to tackle the rewiring required. It could be my imagination but I think moving the water forward has helped pull the bow down and make the boat feel less "ass heavy" when on plane so I put that project on the back burner for now.

Higher on my list is to core seal all of the hull and deck openings like you did with the drain plug fitting, etc. I continue to be amazed (and thankful as I'm sure we all are) by your ability to research and document all of your projects.
Jim