Weight Difference between Honda and Yamaha Outboards

[thataway]

There was a thread about the 100 hp Honda in Sept. Sort of summary by Pedro was:

[forrest]

I personally don't understand all the concern about 50 pounds of weight between some motors hanging on the transom. That is 8 gallons of gas equivalent weight. I can't tell any difference in performance or handling between a full tank or after burning 50 gallons let alone six gallons. I just don't think it is that big an issue. Hang the motor you want on the back as long as the boat is rated for it.

[westward]

Forrest: are you talking about a 22' C-Dory, or the 26' boat listed on your profile? I've owned and operated 2 different CD 22's: one with a single 70 Johnson, and one with twin Honda 40's. The lighter 70 made for a fantastic, nimble ride. The second, though I loved the operation of the engines, was stern-heavy and noticeably less nimble. (This was mitigated somewhat by adding Permatrims). A Honda 115 is considerably heavier than were my twin 50's. Add a 4-stroke kicker and you'd be pushing 600#. Have you seen a Honda 115/135/150 lately? It's a huge engine, disproportionate to the CD 22. It would look goofy, and might not even be able to lift fully out of the water due to the larger cowling hitting the splashwell. There are much better choices for this application IMHO, including other 115 HP models. Mike.

[Rain]

As a former bicycle racer, I tend to count grams! Pounds? Those are REALLY Scary!

Jokes aside, I get your meaning; 50 pounds shouldn't be all that important, but I can't help but try to conserve weight anywhere I can. It all adds up!

[Chester]

When we first started cruising our '05, 22' C-Dory with twin Honda 40s we kept the heavy 96 quart cooler in the cabin (ugh) then the cockpit. The next year I moved it under the V birth where the Porta Potty was and the improvement in handling was immediately apparent.
IMO these boats are sensitive to excess weight on the stern.

[Larry H]

My 1991 22 Cruiser was powered with a 70HP Evinrude (250lbs) and a 8HP kicker (60lbs) with 50 gals gas in two tanks under the splashwell.

When traveling downwind/downwave, the stern would always lift when overtaken by a following sea. I never took on any water over the splashwell. This held true even in big, choppy waves, both offshore in So Cal and in the PNW.

In my opinion, this was the designed behavior of the hull. This hull was rated for 70 or 90 hp in the era when a 70hp motor was 250 lbs.

When considering motors, remember the original designers intentions. This hull design has NOT been updated to accommodate modern heavy motors.

[Kushtaka]

If you're worried about your engine being too heavy just add more chain to your anchor!! Seriously. This issue isn't so much weight, but trim. I have a lot of chain and rode, and it's a hassle pulling it through my windlass, but it sure does keep the bow down a bit.

But my 1993 hull, with a 1999 honda BF90 and a 2010 Tohatsu 9.8 sits with water collecting in the middle of the cockpit if my fuel tanks are half full or less. If they're full the water will sit in the sump by my transom. If I have longline gear, extra battery, a full tank and a cooler back there, it sits pretty stern heavy.

However the boat still is nimble and performs quite well as long as I do my job with the trim tabs. I wouldn't have a CD22 without trim tabs. They are the most critical upgrade you can make, and transform what can be a fussy, slogging boat into a quick an nimble ride.

[thataway]

Larry, are you saying that putting weight in the cockpit or another 100 lbs in the outboard would keep the stern from lifting in swells? My experience in various waters including S. Calif. PNW, Florida, etc. is that when the boat his on a plane, the boat continues to perform well, with weight aft. I don't get water in the splash well.

Now if you are saying that you never take any water into the splash well when going at 5 knots---I cannot argue against that. Except with light boat or heavy boat at rest or at displacement speed, there are situations where a sea may splash into the well, but never beyond. But I , run my boat from nothing in the cockpit with the Honda 90, and 5 gallons of gas, (Which is the way the boat is stored) to hundreds of lbs in the cockpit. The biggest difference is that I can get up to 30 mph with a light boat-and only about 25 mph with a heavy boat at sea level. I don't see much difference in the way the boat handles at slow speeds.

I would argue that the redesign of the bottom of the boat/hull in 1987 especially the reverse chine, gives more lift in the stern. I wasn't involved with C Dory's then, but my guess, is that the redesign was related to Honda expansion of all of their outboards to 4 stroke in 1985. (you know much more about that than I.) How would you redesign the boat for 200 lbs more on the transom? It is easy to say, that one might increase the inboard height of the splash well & the only place I would see where that would make a difference would be if you put several big people in the cockpit, when fishing, and then were backing down on a fish...but we don't use our boat that way. If you were to argue that that transom might need more glass, or a better tie insisted to the sides of the hull, I would agree with that, if you were increasing the HP--but we already know that the boats tend to be a bit on the squirrley side over 30 knots because of the flat bottom. The reason that many boats need more HP in this size range is because of the dead rise--difficulty getting on a plane, and more HP to drive a deep V thru the water on a plane.

It would be great to have a 100 hp outboard which only weighted 260 lbs. Maybe someday we will see that. But the way that most of us use the boats, top cruising speed is in the teens to low 20's, and 90 hp gives that at sea level with almost any load. At Powell, with about 10 to 12% loss of HP, I still can cruise in the teens, well on a plane, even with several hundred extra lbs (gear, food and water for many weeks) The reality is that we only cruised at planing speed about 25% of the time this year. Some of that was because we had to get the C Dory 25 we were taking to Antelope Pt Marina, for John and Grayle and had to cover 50 miles in just a few hours.

The other unknown is the longevity of these 4 stroke extra light motors. They may well be fine. But we will only know that after a few years of running them.

[Kushtaka]

[Sunbeam]

It's obvious from real-world experience that the 22 still handles well with a fair bit of weight on or in the stern area. OTOH, I have heard (and read here) from people who have run the boat both heavy and light, that light is more fun and nimble. But they work either way.

OTOH, I haven't heard from anyone with a 478# main engine, a 70# kicker, AND full fuel tanks, a big cooler, two batteries, etc. It seems as though there must be some point at which handling suffers, and if so (I only say if since I don't know) then a lighter engine would give more flexibility to load up on gear. I'm not speaking of some ultra-light engine, but just "not a nearly 500# one."

I probably won't find out for myself, because as much as I think the Honda 115 is a super cool engine, I can't see putting on on my 22. But if we find out anything here, it's that there is a huge range of approaches and successful outcomes.

[jennykatz]

Engines sizes
Honda uses a 2.4 litre block to make their 115,135,and 150 hp. engines which for a cd-22 is way overkill

Yamaha uses a new 1.8 block for their new 115 hp , 2.7 block for their 150hp , 2.8 block for their 175 and 200hp

Merc uses a 2.2 block for their new 115 engine , 3.0 block fot their 150 hp.

Suzuki uses a 2.0 block engine for their older 115 engine ,a 2.9 block for their 150 and 175 hp engines

It all depends where one lives what engine you should be using because of service ,parts ,and resale . We live in SW Florida Honda does not do well down here they have many more corrosion problems and are 25% more for parts and to buy . Yamaha is very hard to beat down here .For the most bang for the buck is the new merc 115(2015) with the command thrust a bigger lower unit uses the 150 hp lower unit .
When it come time to repower I will definitely look at the merc's but that might be a long time I have 960 hours on a 10 year old motor .f-115 yami

[Larry H]

thataway and Kushtaka,

The Honda website history shows the 90hp/358lbs was introduced in 1994. When I bought my 1991 22Cruiser from the factory, they were Johnson dealers, and frowned on any motor larger or heaver that the 70hp 2-stroke. As I was with an Evinrude dealer at the time, the Evinrude 70 was my motor choice. I chose that motor as it had better fuel economy at the time.

When I was running up coast to SE Alaska, I sure wished I had chosen the 90hp Evinrude, but the lower fuel economy would have made the weight/range problem worse.

In the seaway conditions I was concerned about, the wave trains ran about 15knots, and exceeding the wave speed could result in going 'over the falls' and 'submarineing' into the next wave. This required slowing to allow the waves to overtake the boat from behind. Being overtaken by ocean waves taller than the top of the boat made me appreciate a light stern that would lift. In my ocean running, I never took any green water over either end of the boat.

I never had trim tabs but I did fit a Doel Fin to allow the bow to be lowered to cut into the chop.

In 1990 I was told that the 22 was designed and sold as a 'fishing boat' with a simple interior. It was not intended to be a heavy well equipped cruiser. As far as I know, we were the first C-Dory 22 to do long range cruising. I have not heard of anyone else making the Alaska run in a C-dory at the time (1991). All along the way north, folks were astounded that we came from Seattle in that small of a boat.

[westward]

Quoting Rain:

"You seem to have surmised the reason for my question! I was fortunate to get a ride (my first) on a C-Dory 22' last evening, and the owner said that while he really liked the Honda 90, if he were re-powering, he would go to the Honda 115".

This re-power choice would be an expensive mistake. No problem choosing Honda vs. others, choosing single vs. twins, possibly going up to 115 HP from 90 (exceeds hull rating for many post-1987 CD 22's). BIG problem using an almost 500# single motor. It would exert live and dead forces which could damage the transom. Not to mention the other detrimental effects of its weight and physical size. This is probably why you never see it on any of the CD 22's. Sorry if this sounds declarative or combative: I've made expensive mistakes around re-powering boats before, where I wish I'd listened to experienced advice prior. Mike

[BrentB]

Gear ratios for the 115 models
Honda 2.00:1
Merc 2.07
Suzuki 2.59

[Rain]

That is probably good advice, Mike. I doubt he will be buying a new motor. He has another, much bigger, boat that he uses most of the time. The 22' is pretty much a runabout for him. The Honda 90 is like new and will probably last longer than he keeps the boat. I tried to get him to sell it to me, but no dice! He has two boats and I have NONE! Just doesn't seem right.