Rule 1100 non auto bolge pump????

katkt · Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 9:13 am Post subject: Rule 1100 non auto bolge pump????

I'm in the process of switching these out. They had worked fine up until this last time, when I replaced the batteries, and one side was not working.
No biggie(other then the usual braille method I use when working in this area) i decided to change them out.
I started on the side that wasn't working properly, and after upgrading the install over the factory "let's screw them right thru the hull into the balsa, and not seal anything" Rolling Eyes

I have the new pump and switch installed.
It seems to work a little bit to well now. They won't shut off. When I switch the battery switch to on, the pumps run, and don't shutoff
Is it possible, that the side I haven't done anything with, is causing this snafu?
Before, they wouldn't come on, unless the switch at the Helm was activated. Now, they run all the time, but there seems to be added interest if the Helm switch is turned on, or the float switch is manually operated.
This is not a tricky wiring thing, it was simply a matter of hooking it up just like it was before, And I believe my cranial capacity is still such that I have done that correctly.

What are the chances, that when I finish the other hull, this phenomenon will go away? Is it possible, that the other old pump and or switch, is allowing them to stay running?

Captains Cat · Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 10:59 am Post subject:

There should be three wires. One for ground, one for a manual switch and one directly to the battery (that's for the auto function with the built in float). Sounds like you've got the manual one connected to the battery vice the auto function one.

Charlie

pat.jack · Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 1:37 pm Post subject:

Good input from Charlie. I replaced the original bilge pump on my boat last summer. My original pump was not automatic-it only had 2 wires, and was wired so it activated when you manually threw the switch at the helm. As Charlie mentions, yours' is probably wired directly to the battery-so when you turn on the battery switch-the pump turns on. I purchased a new pump, since there were some issues with the way the original was epoxied to the boat. I added a 'water witch' to make the pump automatic. Now it will run either by manually throwing a switch at the helm, or auto when the water witch detects water. I purchased the water witch from Defender, but they are available from other sources. I addition I added a 2nd pump at the stern, since that was where the water collected when I had the boat at dock.
Good luck with your project.
Jack Howell

katkt · Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 1:42 pm Post subject:

thataway · Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:34 pm Post subject:

Boats can be wired differently. There should be no cross wiring between the two hulls, and the bulge pumps should be independent--but one never knows???.

In my boat, currently, the main bilge pump (inside the cabin in the 2006 DC 22 and used when the boat is at rest in the water), is controlled completely thru the switch at the helm--three way switch--center off, one side on thru the float switch, the other side, manual on all of the time.
The boat can be wired so that the float switch is wired directly to the battery, and then a second circuit powers the pump from a switch by the helm.

There is a third way, and that is the way my aft bilge pump by the transom (to be used when he boat is on a plane). Turning that switch on, activates the pump, only when the float switch turns on, when there is water in the aft sump.

Another way might be to have that aft pump fully manual--and without a float switch.

You should be wired, so that the positive side of the pump is activated by a direct connection to the battery thru the float switch--that is the float switch "in" is connected to the battery, and then the float switch "out" goes to the positive side of the pump. The negative wire in the pump is hard wired to the battery. There can be a second wire, from a switch at the helm which goes directly to the positive side of the pump, and supplies it when the helm switch is activated.

To avoid the corrosion--even if the wires are held out of the bilge--use adhesive filled shrink wrap, or butt connectors which are covered with adhesive shrink wrap. Then coat then entire connector and shrink wrap near the ends with "liquid tape". This should seal them--just the damp air in the bilge will cause corrosion.

If you are still having a problem, please give me a call, and I'll come over and help.

katkt · Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 7:13 pm Post subject:

Thanks Bob.

I cut the starboard wires, and pulled the pump and switch from that side. The port side now works like it use to...ie, when the battery switch is turned on, there is nothing. When the Helm switch for the bilge pumps is turned on, the pump runs. I didn't check, to see if when the battery switch is 'on', and the helm switch is 'off', if I could manually operate the float switch and get the pump to turn on. I'll have to try that tomorrow.

Because of the difficulty of doing anything down inside the hatches, I have been crimping the connectors, and sealing the ends with silicone. I can do this with one hand.
The new pumps and switches, have much longer pigtails, so zip tying them up out of harms way, won't be a problem. The original setup was such, that I had to splice some wire extensions in, just to be able to connect them after the original install failed.

On a good note, all the screws will be screwed into epoxy fill now. Happy, happy, happy.

katkt · Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 8:29 pm Post subject:

So, curiosity got the best of me.
I went back out, and turned the battery switch on. Went to the port side, reach down and activated the float switch, and the pump came on, without the helm switch needing to be activated.
My thinking, is that incase the boat was unattended, in inclimate weather, as long as the battery switch was on, the bilge pumps would run on their own, when needed, when the water level gets high enough to activate the float switch.
This would also work, in case there was a water intrusion issue, and nobody caught it soon enough.
I've read of several incidents(usually involving live well plumbing that came loose), and before people realized what was happening, it was to late. I think one was a cat off the coast of Louisiana about ten or so years ago. By the time those on board realized there was a problem, the batteries had gone under. Folks nearby, hauled them aboard.

katkt · Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 1:58 pm Post subject:

I finished up the starboard side today.
All is right with the world again.
Battery switch off, nothing works.
Battery switch "On", nothing happens until the float switch is levered to the "On" position, or the Helm switch for the Bilge pumps is turned "On".
Apparently the float switch on the starboard side was maintaining the circuit somehow, so the pumps wouldn't turn "off", until the switch was disconnected.

Sunbeam · Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 6:58 pm Post subject:

thataway · Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 9:42 pm Post subject:

So, are you the one who bought out all of the 1100 GPH pumps at West Marine? I was dong final checks on my boat today, and when I flipped the bilge pump to manual, the breaker blew. I pulled the pump, and the motor was basically frozen up. Time for a new one--but West Marine was out!

I got one at the other store. The new one does not have a float switch, nor does it have a sampling system--it has a capacitance switch. You test it by putting your finger on one side of the membrane--and it it is working, the pump comes on.

I wired this new pump in: Manual, if you need to pump, or auto the rest of the time. I put the pump back in with G Flex thickened epoxy. (Same for the all manual aft pump). This is my choice--I keep the boat on a trailer or lift when I am not aboard. When we are cruising, the main power is "on" and the automatic bilge pump is activated--plus the only thru hull fitting below the water line on my 22, is the transom drain plug, which has the plug in place.

My boat came with a one way valve in the pump discharge line--Rule specifically states in the installation instructions--do not use a one way valve. So I took it out. I also replaced the 8 year old brittle discharge hose.

There are silicon filled connectors, which are rated for water intrusion prone areas. There are many types of silicone, and I don't know what you are using. The usual RTV (room temperature vulcanized) sealers generally available to the public release acetic acid and some other materials, when the organic groups polymerize. This acetic acid will attack the material which the silicone is placed upon. Copper and Zinc are corroded by the acetic acid. This is why it is not advisable to use RTV silicone on electrical connections.

The best way to seal a boat electrical connector is with adhesive lined heat shrink, and then apply vinyl liquid tape over any area which is not well sealed..

katkt · Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 11:06 pm Post subject:

katkt · Posted: Tue May 27, 2014 11:08 pm Post subject:

thataway · Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:27 am Post subject:

From 3 M data sheet on the Marine Silicone:
"Do not use with electronic circuitry. Acetic acid liberated during cure may corrode electronic circuitry."

katkt · Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 10:26 am Post subject:

I figure I'm about a thousand miles ahead of the factory crimping the connections 12 inches from the switches and pumps and dropping them in the bilge(I seem to remember complaints on "The Hull Truth" back when I purchased this boat, about the short pigtails. I'm glad they lengthened them over time).
Considering the life span of these items, these connections 'may' out live the pumps and switches by a decade or more at a minimum(a SWAG based on the number of these threads :^) ).
...and no, I didn't buy up all the pumps at West Marine. Laughing

I ordered these online from one of the links on Amazon
I gave serious thought to just spade connectors because of the turnover rate, but didn't know if somebody could find the other half when the time came to replace the equip..
The silicone is just capping the ends of the plastic sleeves on the connections. Some of it 'may' have come into contact with a wire in there somewhere. I think I might be safely into the 'may' part of 3M's qualifier, where circuitry meets 12 and 14 gauge wire.
I've seen the adhesive lined shrink wrap. It's nice stuff.

Regarding Sunbeams comment about having another bus bar. I think that would be an excellent idea, except for the space limitations in the back. Even with the electrical panel in the head on the backside of the helm, there are a few extras at the batteries. I've never had an issue, and I keep them sprayed with a non conductive coating but it could look a bit neater.