Engine run problem

[BrentB]

There is improved formula of Ring Free called
YamaLube Ring Free PLUS

When used as directed, this top-quality deposit-control sytem removes deposits from fuel injectors, carburetors, intake valves, intake ports, and combustion chambers. These harmful deposits, often the result of poor quality gasoline, may cause knocking/pinging, power loss, hesitation, shortened spark plug life, piston ring sticking, and even expensive engine damage. This special fomulation also helps protect electronic parts and fitting in the fuel system against the corrosive effects of sulfur compounds in ethanol (E10) fuels. May be used with Yamahalube Fuel Stabalizer & Conditioner PLUS. Improves power and efficiency in two and four stroke engines. Improves power and efficiency in two and four stroke engines. Use this product on a continuous basis to provide maximum protection against deposits. 1 oz Ring Free PLUS to every 10 gallons of fresh gasoline.

info from Sim Yamaha

[thataway]

What I do--First run the carbs out of gas, and then drain them. I have found on the Honda's (2006 BF 90) that there are still a few CC total left in the carburetors. This is enough to cause jet problems--and potentially other issues in the carburetor. Any debris left in the bottom of the carb goes on up into the jets, and even the pivot point of the float as you fill the carburetor up with fuel next time you run the engine.

For the fuel--may be overkill: Stabil for ethanol (If I have had to use ethanol fuel--I try and use pure gas--in that case: Stabil for gasoline. Plus Startron (Enzyme--may be snake oil, but I have seen one case where the diesel version liquified fuel which had gelled over time (20 years) --in warm climates), and I was using Sea Foam--more recently Ring Free. If I am running the engine daily, I don't put in these additives--but if the fuel is going to sit for any length of time I do. I probably should put in the Ring Free---good information on the Ring Free Plus.

I have no explanation as to why the float stuck--but there can be some sticky material left in carbs--or maybe something in the gas which you were running?

[BrentB]

Sea foam smells like naptha - lighter fluid to me and is an useful cleaning solvent. I use Sea Foam in my mower , snow blower and trimmer, occasionally in the vehicles. As I recall Startron smells the same and never understand why they use the term enzyme to me it is incorrect

[Roy & Dixie]

If I am running the engine daily, I don't put in these additives--but if the fuel is going to sit for any length of time I do. I probably should put in the Ring Free---good information on the Ring Free Plus.

I have no explanation as to why the float stuck--but there can be some sticky material left in carbs--or maybe something in the gas which you were running?

I believe the main problem with ethanol in marine engines is the time between use in most cases, plus open vented tanks and storage in very high humidity locations. Most automobiles are driven daily and we can go for years with no problems, now that seals, ect, are designed for ethanol fuels.

I'm beginning to wonder if it might have been the valve in the carbs sticking in the closed position and not the float stuck up. I'll probably never know for sure, unless this continues to happen.

I plan to be on the water every couple of weeks as long as I own the boat, but an additive might still be advisable.

[thataway]

Brent I looked into Soltron (StarTron after licensing to the Starbrite corporation in the USA) There are some papers about the enzymes involved, which they say break down some of the petroleum molecules. Is it hype? I don't know--except what I observed with the tank of diesel.

There is sort of a "war" going on between the various producers or licensers of Soltron:
"the one and only, Original Soltron Enzyme Fuel Treatment contains 99.5% Low Odor Base Solvent, (de-odorized kerosene) with a flash point of 150F, and contains .5% proprietary organic compounds (the enzyme). There are no other chemicals or components in Soltron." This is form the founder of the first produced Soltron. It is also known as: StarTron, "

"1. Solpower Corporation, USA is the sole licensee to manufacturer and distribute Soltron Enzyme Fuel Treatment, an invention of Dr. Shinji Makino, Institute for Bioenergy, outside of Japan.
2. "Xbee" is our product under private label for the EU, from Xtra Xport Trade in France, as is "Startron", a new version under private label from Starbrite, the world's largest manufacturer of boat maintenance products.
3. The knock-offs do not contain our enzyme.
4. The Belfast based Solpower is unrelated to Solpower Corporation, USA and we have been assured, has no access to Makino's enzyme. This company does own the trademark "Soltron" in the EU.
5. Solpower Corporation has no knowledge of what chemicals or components are in other additives called Soltron, and suggests the buyer beware of claims. If you have concerns about ingredients, safety, and quality, we suggest you read the MSDS sheet from the manufacturer. Conventional chemical additives will use alcohol, metals, salts, or other organo-metallic components to try to achieve the effects of Soltron's enzyme formula."

Here is an unscientific paper which gives some claims:
http://www.teamrsm.com/files/Enzyme2306-Marine.pdf

[Roy & Dixie]

That-a-way:
I compromised so as not to over do my original thoughts. Plus my contact at auto store, a lady from an auto garage family background, who is more knowlegeable on general auto engines than anyone I have ever met. She said no more than 2-3 oz of Sea Foam/gal or I could start to damage seals, etc. So I put 2.5 oz into 1 gal, drained carbs, pumped mixture through carbs, closed drain plugs and filled carbs with mixture. After standing 1/2 hr I started engine and let it run @ 1/2 hr burning the 2 oz/1gal mixture. Then reconnected to boat's tanks and ran engine @ 1/2hr on clean fuel only. Had to reset Idle, it had increased 200-300 rpm. I think I have solved my problem.

[BrentB]

Roy

Sorry about adding side bar stories to your message

Bob
In regards to fuel additives, a better approach would be knowing additional gasoline (blended, alcohol free, regional blends) information, then make an informed decision of using an additive.

Here is WIKI article on fuel detergents

The majority of the dozen or so fuel experts and auto mechanics publicly commenting on Top Tier gasoline recommend it. A 2007 USA Today article quoted three critics who say it has little or no benefit, but the same article quoted three endorsers of the new standard.[18] Tom Magliozzi, co-host of NPR's weekly radio show, Car Talk, said that using top tier detergent gasoline is only critical on high-end vehicles. For other vehicles, he and another source said periodic use of a concentrated engine cleaner is effective in removing carbon buildup. Magliozzi said use of such a cleaner every 100,000 miles will "often" clean out the deposits.

However, General Motors fuels engineer Andrew Buczynsky says the various engine-cleaning additives available at auto-parts stores should be used with caution. He said some work but most don't, and that care must be taken when using these additives because some may contaminate the catalytic converter. Also, if too much is used, the additive may cling to valve stems and cause them to hang open.[15]

Most mechanics agree that consistent use of a fuel with adequate cleaning ability is best. Magliozzi's co-host, Ray Magliozzi, said that in order to be sure of preventing buildup of fuel injectors and valves, motorists should use Top Tier gasoline "at least most of the time."[23][24] Several others agree: Mechanic Pam Oakes says Top Tier gas is effective in cleaning carbon from engines and is worth buying. She says she’s seen the difference it can make and recommends it to all of her customers.[25] Automotive service manager Willie Beyer advises his customers to either use a Top Tier gasoline regularly, or have a mechanic clean their fuel injectors of carbon build-up every 30,000 miles.[26] Westside Autos in Clive, Iowa, and Motor Age columnist Larry Hammer also recommend Top Tier for removing carbon build-up, adding that a cleaner engine will also burn fuel more cleanly and therefore produce less emissions.[27][28] Mechanic and automotive journalist Jim Kerr concurs: "All gasoline is not created equal . . . Top Tier does have benefits."[17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Tier_Detergent_Gasoline

Of the fuel additives product information that I have read, I find it difficult to make an informed and separate the hype from the facts except if you dont their product, you will problems.

It is the age old State of Fear tactic.

I used them,too but question their validity.

To me, a company with a good product would provide some test results across several different scenarios yet it seems lacking.

Where are the control groups? People who dont use fuel additives.
Do they problems and what types?

We need a fuel chemical engineer that's not me

[thataway]

Here is my take on gasoline. In our area all of the gasoline used to arrive in a single fuel barge to a depot. There were the 3 grades 87, 89 and 93. All of service stations in our area got there fuel out of the same tanks. The tanker truck would fill up the tanks from the large supply tanks, pull forward, and each of the 3 compartments would get that company's additives which were added to that tank compartment. The base gasoline was the same--just the additive was different for each "Brand". I don't have a clue as to the real difference between the additives. In my cars up until now, I have always just used the cheapest fuel from stations which had a high volume of gasoline sales. I have never had a fuel or engine problem (except vapor lock about 60 years ago, and one diesel where some mechanic had put a gasoline filter element instead of a diesel element)

Now my wife's new Audi is different-it calls specifically for 93 octane and that is what it will burn. I didn't see anything about "top Tier fuel" in the manual, and thus ran thru the various Audi forums on this subject. Apparently the US government specifies the minimum amount of additives. There are all varieties of premium gas used in these cars--and also a huge variety of additives--or none at all. Mentioned were...SeaFoam!..Lucas, Chevron, Shell, etc additives...We will have to follow this up on her car with the dealer head mechanic (who lives nearby and takes the Audi to Mobile for service for us). My GMC will continue to dine on whatever regular we get--usually USA travel plasa and Tom Thumb, which are the stations nearest to our home.

Now the boat. I have had fuel problems thru the years, and developed the routine I use today. --for the most part it is fueled with "Parade" pure gas, or what I can find at our local Marina, which I think is Valvotec. (I suspect the latter may be a "top Tier" fuel. I put the "stuff in" the boats because I want to avoid moisture and storage problems. For example we were gone for about 5 months this summer. when I got home, I fired up the Suzuki 140 on the Caracal--and it ran perfectly. Racor clear. So what I am doing seems to be working.

I would love to see very good scientific data on the various additives, but I fear they are sadly lacking. (I read all of the articles on Saltron I could find when I started using it--and it was hard to get then--had to be ordered from only one source in AZ) I was not convinced, but I seemed to have less fuel problems.

[C-WEED]

Roy,

Glad you got her running. Below is a link that shows what is in your carb. A diagram always helps.

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/partviewer/default.aspx?ls=outboard#/Yamaha/F80TLRX_-_1999/CARBURETOR_1/F80TLRX_%281999_OUTBOARD_MOTORS%29/CARBURETOR_1_%28F80TLRX_-_1999%29



You can order parts from this place if needed. Notice item 44 shows an internal screen. There are the tiny screens in the fuel lines. It has been a few years since I had mine apart. I could not find the screens in the diagram that lists all the fuel lines. They will be at one of the line connections. The screens come in the rebuild kits. But it sounds like yours are clear just sticky carbs.

I use Sea Foam to fog the engine for storage or starter spray to start and run a problem engine from the spray can. It is not a volatile as starting fluid such as either.

To clean sticky varnished carbs I use B-12 Chem tool. (Auto-zone, Wall-Mart) http://www.berrymanproducts.com/products/cleaning-degreasing/b-12-chemtool-carburetor-choke-and-throttle-body-cleaner/

The spray is good for cleaning carbs. It comes in pour cans to add to the fuel tank. This has a host of solvents including Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK) This is very strong stuff. But safe when mixed per directions. Don't spill it on painted surfaces. Check out their website for more information and the MSDS.

On your floats. The needle valve is attached to the float. So if the needle sticks closed the float sticks in the up position. This could be caused by the needle itself sticking up in the body or the hinge pivot shaft that the float pivots on. If you don't remove carbs for cleaning you can try the B-12 spray and stick the plastic tip in the carb bowl drain hole. Raise the engine all the way up and tilt the motor to starboard. This will hold the fluid in there for a while to soak. Not a perfect solution but worth a try. Then tilt motor down to drain any debris out. I spray mist the motor with a water hose if I know I will be spilling a bit of fuel/cleaner. This will protect the paint. If you add the B-12 pour can to the fuel tank. Spend some time running the engine at idle this pulls the cleaner thru the tiny idle circuit. then run around as normal. BUT leave the carbs full of fuel over the next several days. You want all the internal parts to stay as wet as possible. If your boat is on the trailer at home. Just run the motor for about ten minutes each night for a week or so to get the parts soaking. Then burn that gas out and go back to Pure gas with Sta-Bil and Ring Free for the Yamaha.

B-12 info http://www.berrymanproducts.com/about/what-is-hest/

I spend most times cruising at 6 knots. When I pulled my carbs for cleaning you can look right into the back of the intake valves. My engine had 300 hours at the time. I was surprised to see a large amount of carbon build up on the valves. I started using Ring Free at that time.

When you engine starts to make a little SPIT, SPIT, pop, SPIT sound up to about 1800 RPM it is a sign that the idle circuit is plugging up. No additive will prevent ethanol problems. Only reduce them if you are lucky.

[Roy & Dixie]

The needle valve is attached to the float. So if the needle sticks closed the float sticks in the up position. This could be caused by the needle itself sticking up in the body or the hinge pivot shaft that the float pivots on.

I should have realized this since I had 1 carb removed and the bowl detached. Your post gives a wealth of info and advice. I will be keeping all this, and all the others from everyone, to reference in the future. Thank you.

[Sunbeam]

quote="C-WEED"] Below is a link that shows what is in your carb... [/quote]

[BrentB]

I would love to see very good scientific data on the various additives, but I fear they are sadly lacking. (I read all of the articles on Saltron I could find when I started using it--and it was hard to get then--had to be ordered from only one source in AZ) I was not convinced, but I seemed to have less fuel problems

I agree

Thanks a million again, Bob

[Will-C]

We are forced to use ethanol laced gasoline. All of our small engines have the fuel treated with blue marine stabil. That goes for the lawn tractor, two cycle leaf blower,two cycle small rototiller,large rototiller,dink motor,snow blower. Any gas that is for the above gets treated when it is purchased. No trouble after winter or summer layover. The boat gets Yamaha ring free everytime we fuel and if the gas has ethanol it gets the blue marine stabil. I think if you constantly run a motor and it does not sit around I would drop the marine Stabil. The Yamaha ring free I only use in the boat engine. But if you have money to burn the Yamaha Ring free would not hurt anything. Yamaha ring free is recomended by most everyone who knew anything about outboards either two stroke or 4 stroke. We have been putting in our outboards since 1997. I believe!
D.D.

[ghone]

The additives are some confusing. My Yamaha mechanic is against them all. What I do is try to avoid getting fuel at marinas early in the season it may have sat a loooong time. Like Dangling Rope on Powell. I try to find the cheapest, busiest looking fuel depot when I trailer in to a new place. High volume sales hopefully means fresh gas. I try to run the boat regularly also. If it needs to be stored I like a bit of Stabil and so far (knock wood) we're clear in the racor all the time. Like Bob points out, it's all the same basic liquid till the various companies hop it up their way. I'll have the Corona por favor. George

[BrentB]

It is confusing to me b/c discussions revolve around product names instead of active ingredients