Best Single/Kicker Engine combo for a CD 22'

[El and Bill]

Ok, gang in the pub -- we've had a great discussion on the Honda 40 vs. Honda 50 in recent days with some really helpful information for folks considering buying a CD22.

The twin vs. single discussion has also been considered recently and, in our opinion, resolves into how an individual intends to use their boat.

But, there seems to be another option, brought up a few times on the recent discussions, that requires a thread all its own.

Sea Wolf had a great comparison of engine types a few days ago on the 40 vs. 50 thread. So, since there are so many new engines and options available now than just a few years ago, how about some discussion about the best single engine/kicker for a new owner to buy.

Here's what we propose for the parameters of discussion to keep the pub focussed:

What is the best single/kicker combo for a CD 22? Now, not just opinion, but the facts (like Sea Wolf was just giving us). What's the cost, and why one brand over another.

[Casey]

At the risk of life-and-limb, here are some thoughts....

We have a Suzuki 90 on Naknek. In slightly over 200 hours, are Very happy with the performance. It starts immediately, is extremely quiet and gives decent mileage (although I'm trying to tweak that slightly...as gas prices continue to climb).

The kicker is a Suzuki 15 (BF15?), and another story. I ended up with the short shaft (long story...) which I think was a mistake. Les managed to make it work (the purchase mistake was MINE, not his...) with a big/heavy/pricey bracket, but it's still marginal in my estimation. (PLEASE don't attribute any of the downside to Les; he atleast made MY mistake workable...)

I selected the Suzuki after considerable research and thought. The fuel injection was a big factor. In addition, I liked the timing chain (versus belt) and larger output on the Suzuki alternator.

Recently, Suzuki warranty work was the subject of some pretty bad commentary by one clearly-pissed member. His experiences are his, and cannot be dismissed. I on the otherhand have (yet) to experience any need for warranty work, and hope not to have that experience! But I do have some perspective....

During the winter of 2002-2003 (prior to buying our boat/motor I worked (volunteered) weekends at a Suzuki dealership on the east coast. My main objective was to learn as much as I could about the motor(s) before laying-out that much money. What I recall was: (#1) the scant number of motors that came through for any warranty work - there were two, all winter. (#2) One of the two was a burned-up powerhead on large 2-stroke motor that was four(?) years old. It was repaired under warranty. Pretty amazing, considering the owner had run the motor without any oil ... duh.

Honda's. Great motors as well. We have a Honda 90 on a 17' Whaler. (Perfect combination for the Keys.) My ONLY comment about the Honda has to do with the (4) carburetors. Over the years I've had them cleaned about three times (about $180 the last time...yes, I use fuel stabilizer...), and that gets old. That said - the motor has been flawless and provided some Great Adventures. ...and yes, a Honda2 does work as a "kicker" on a Whaler Montauk! It's certainly not fast, but better than rowing!

As soon as Honda get fuel injection in it's smaller motors I'll be back in the Honda column.

Anxious to read other postings....

Casey
C-Dory Naknek
(Whaler Manana)

[Redƒox]

[Sea Wolf]

El and Bill- Great topic......here we go again!!!

Casey- Great information and thinking! Ditto on the EFI endorsement!

Greg- I took the information on the various engines from their 2006 brochures, if that's what you're asking(?).

Choosing a motor can be a somewhat arduous task if you want to weigh all the facts, opinions, and other factors such as cost and service availability carefully before committing, but here goes.

I choose the Yamaha 90 last year for the following reasons which I think are still valid:


For 2005, Yamaha added Electronic Fuel Injection to all their models from 50-90 hp. EFI is more convenient, more reliable, more efficient, cleaner, and simply better than "Old School" carburetors. The engines start better, run smoother, use less gas, pollute less, and give you and your motor technician more information on what's going on with them. Carburetors are headed for the Museum of Outboard Artifacts and Old School Ideas.

I choose the 90 over the 75 because of the power reserve factor for heavier loads, although I mostly run in the 3800-4400 rpm bracket.

The Yamaha F90 weighs 369 lbs, well within the bracket defined by engines available in this class: Honda 75/90-373 lbs.; Suzuki DF90-416 lbs; Evinrude E-Tech 90-320 lbs. The Mercury 90 is a Yamaha except for the lower end=386 lbs.

The Yamaha 75/90 and 115 (actually all the Yamahas) are designed specifically for marine use, eg., an outboard engine designed as such and not an automobile engine adapted for use as an outboard and stood on end. The many hours of experience with an automobile engine design can eliminate many problems, of course, but standing it on end, putting it in a marine environment, and loading it up to work at heavy marine loads as compared to lighter auto loads, and at temperatures well below that in an automobile, can introduce new issues. I prefer a specific marine designed engine by a large scale world renown manufacturer with tons of experience in designing gas and diesel engines for cars, trucks, motorcycles, snowmobiles, jet skis, generators...you name it. I think such an engine can and will be a better product in the long run.

I preferred the simple direct 4 valve dual camshaft design of the Yamaha (and the Suzuki) over the single camshaft more complex three valve Civic engine design in the Honda. Even the Honda engines from 115 hp up use the same dual camshaft, 4 valve set up as the Yamaha. (Adding variable valve timing at the higher levels.)

The induction and exhaust systems in the Yamaha and Suzuki are more modern and efficient in design than the Honda.

The engine displacement of the Yamaha also is well placed among the choices: Honda 75/90 1590 cc, Yamaha/Mercury 75/90 1596 cc, Suzuki DF90 1950 (!) (Suzi DF 70 is a different block = 1298 cc), and E-Tech = 1295 cc (2-stroke).

The amperage output of the Yamaha is reasonable within the choices available: Honda = 16 amps, E-Tech = 25 amps, Yamaha/Mercury = 25 amps, and Suzuki = 40 amps(!). I think all of us need a good alternator output with the "stuff" we load onto our C-Dorys!

I liked the gear ratio of the Yamaha for a heavier boat like the C-Dory. Mercury 2.07 : 1, Honda 2.30 : 1, Yamaha 2.31 : 1, Suzuki 2.59 : 1, and E-Tech 2:1 for Freshwater model and 2.25:1 for the saltwater version.

The dealer network for Yamaha is very strong here in California. Several marine dealers in Redding alone sell Yamahas. The Honda network is also strong. The nearest Suzuki dealer is in Marysville, 90 miles away, although the Johnson dealers could easily work on a Suzuki, since the four stroke Johnsons are actually Suzukis.

The motor came with a three year warranty, which is pretty standard, as I remember it. The E-Tech curently comes with a 7 year warranty! Suzuki was offering a six year warranty at no extra cost at the time, but with the nearest dealer 90 miles away..... (However, I wound up buying the Yamaha from Gunther's in Santa Rosa because he was a C-Dory dealer and because of the deal he made to sell the old motors for no commission, which turned out to be a $1950 return with no effort to me.)

Overall, I just thought the Honda, by comparison, although a very high quality product, was in need of some serious updating.

The Suzuki DF-90 looks to be a "brute" of an engine with its 1950 cc of displacement, and the same block is also offered "tuned up" in the DF-115 version. The short dealer network and automobile design engine was the put-off, although I liked the chain driven valve train for engineering reasons (have not heard of anyone actually having problems with the rubber/fabric/ fiberglass or Kevlar (?) belts in all my readings.) The big block baby also comes with a slight penalty: 416 lbs. It's probably the strongest of the 90's (torque).

Since the Mercury and Johnson 4 strokes are Yamahas and Suzukis, respectively, they represent the same basic choices as before, except for the Mercs having their own make lower unit, which Flagold has assured me is a better foot than the original!

The real "sleeper" here is the Evinrude E-Tech with its light weight, high tech approach to modernizing the 2-stroke outboards. Most people will say that the jury is still out on this new baby, and it might be a little more of a "risk" until it has a longer track record. (The "ficht" snafu for Evinrude still lingers in some minds.) So far, however, most of the reports are positive from my readings on various sites. Trust Dusty to give us the real scoop as it develops. This may be the C-Dory engine of the future.

So when it came time to replace my aging Evinrude 90. I decided the Yamaha was the safest and best bet available, especially with the newly added EFI. I've had zero problems with it so far. If I had time, I could probably come up with a few more reasons why I think it's the best choice, but other items need my attention. I'll get to the criteria for the kicker in a later post! Joe.

[Sea Wolf]

To finish up my earlier discussion of engine choices, I'll turn to the kicker.

I haven't really studied the specific brand choices available in a kicker, but I can set up some criteria I'd use to choose one:

First, it would be a two cylinder, four stroke, water cooled, long shaft model with a gutsy powerhead of between 8-15 hp.

8 hp will get you up to hull displacement speed in a 22, which is about 8 mph, and be OK for most uses. If boating in the ocean or other places where strong currents, winds, waves or other like hazards are a consideration, I'd go with the 9.9-15 hp range models.

I'd want an enlarged lower unit with a lower gear ratio, and a bigger, slower turning prop, and not just anything labeled "High Thrust" for marketing purposes. This type of motor was originally developed to push sailboats around more efficiently than the typical small gas outboard, and its more efficient energy transfer lies it it's larger lower unit. There's a better momentum and therefore energy transfer with the larger, slower turning prop. This works just like the situation where you can transfer momentum and energy better on a row boat with a pair of long oars rowing with long slow strokes, as compared to using a short, stubby pair stroking twice as fast, but wasting much of the energy just stirring the water up.

I'd spend the money to get an electric start model, and put remote throttle, shift, and steering controls on it led to a second helm station on the rear of the cabin bulkhead for fishing convenience. The kicker would be steered independently of the main engine with a cable. Two motors, two sets of controls, two helms, total redundancy.

I'd also mount the motor on the port side of the boat on a bracket, such as the one Tyboo Mike has designed, to get the weight balance right with the helmsman. This makes the electric starting and remote steering both convenient and necessary due to the "left handed" steering arm design of motors that otherwise forces us to mount them on the starboard side.

I'd also consider adding an electric trolling speed control if I needed fine speed adjustment, such as the Trollmaster.

One could design separate gas and battery / electrical supply sources for the kicker if going offshore and sensing the need for it.

Well, that about does it. I'll leave it to the rest of you to choose among the brands. Joe.

[Redƒox]

[Larry H]

Greg,

The piston diameter in an E-TEC 90 is 3.6"!! That's not small!!

The stroke, however, is short at 2.586 and the motor achieves full horsepower at only 5,000 rpm with the max rpm range being 4500 to 5500. This is a slower running engine than Honda or Yamaha.

[Sea Wolf]

In yesterday's post about kicker engine controls, I stated that I would prefer the kicker be independently steered from the main motor with a cable at a second helm station on the rear of the cabin bulkhead and at the front starboard side of the cockpit. This allows you to have two independent helm stations, one for each motor, and redundancy for safety. Still a very good idea! Had to make a choice at the time, so that was it, but have been thinkin' further........

If you'd prefer to be able to steer the kicker from either station (although the throttle and shift controls would remain separate), such as to be able to get out of the rain when trolling, a slightly different system could be used. Equip both helm stations with hydraulic steering with both led to the main engine's hydraulic steering ram, and connect the two engines with a steering arm link. Now you can steer either engine from either station, at low speeds at least, such as when trolling. This would also allow you to install an autopilot which requires hydraulic steering and can be very useful in trolling situations, especially when you're alone. If you'd like to see such an arrangement, take a look in Ron's / Snoopy C's Album:

Three pictures at the bottom of page 2, and three at the top of page 3.


http://www.c-brats.com/modules.php?set_albumName=Snoopy-C&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php&page=2



Who's up next? Joe. (swingin' away!)

[Waterball]

I have a comment to make here. I was out in Resurrection Bay over Memorial Day weekend and my steering cable broke. The boat being an 81' vintage I feel the cable has served its useful life and than some. The Waterball is equipped with an 115hp 4stroke Suzuki main and a 9.9 Yamaha 4stroke kicker. The kicker fired up, just as it did when I tested it at the dock before I left. Outside of having to steer it from the stern with the tiller handle, we made it back painlessly. I for one had overlooked the steering cable as a possible trouble hot spot. Having separate steering controls is an excellent idea. As for the debate with brand of motor you have bolted on the back of these boats, each to his or her own. Enlight of the fact that one person could being spending most of their time fishing in saltwater while another cruising inland water ways, each is going to have a different set of needs. I think it wise to consider the options and pick accordingly, but be leary of staying with one brand just because you think it looks nice or just because everyone else has one. I didnt have the option to pick the motor, as I bought the boat with its current motor, but the Suzuki main has been trouble free for me.
Shaun

[Sea Wolf]

Shaun / Waterball

Thanks for the comment about the dual / redundant steering stations. Sometimes stuff happens, and if we've planned for it, we get off easy!


You're also very correct about each person's boating needs being different and requiring different solutions, and I think most of us are very much aware of it. Good point. I was trying to generalize about what I thought would be the best set up for most situations.

In fact, my needs are such here on inland lakes that I've temporarily, at least, done away with the kicker engine on my boat and have gone to an electric engine mounted trolling motor on my Yamaha 90 in order to be able to troll at low speeds and simplify the two motor control problem.

For those who are interested in this approach and who haven't read about it before, here's a link to the discussion:

http://www.c-brats.com/viewtopic.php?t=1263

Joe.

[C-WEED]

And another thing. Rope start on the kicker if all goes dead. Don't forget the charging rectifier for the kicker to keep the batteries up. I skipped the fancy switches. I have two leads in the starboard lazarett that attach to whatever battery needs charged. Simplicity.

If the water is clean enough to swim in.... Only the YAMAHA (main or kicker) allows one to manufacture a HOT WATER shower for about $5. Simply attach it to the flush port (main or kicker) and enjoy unlimited hot water showers. Works great on either the swim platform, sitting on the lazarret or in the cockpit. Want hotter water with more pressure? Just lean on the throttle.

What is the only advantage of twins? Two people can shower at the same time. Not recommended for use with auto-pilot ingaged.

The shower hose can be seen in my album. Since this is a family pub I'll not show the shower in use.... Worth every penny

[gljjr]

[gljjr]

I have been on a couple boats (Sorry, not C-Dories) that have the Yamaha T8. The last one had Electric Start/Trim plus a TR-1 Autopilot. I find the T8 to be a great kicker! And when mated to a TR-1 it just can't be beat for fishing. Push a button to tilt it down, then push another button to start it. Pick up the TR-1 wireless remote and hang it on your belt. Set the speed with the remote and drop your gear. Only time you have to do anything is when you see a boat in your path or you want to turn or change speeds. All of that can be done with the remote. Pretty slick setup!

So, since the kicker is a Yami, you may as well get the main from them as well

[gljjr]

I just wanted to add that the kicker on my Sled is an '84 Honda 7.5hp. I have never had such problems with a carburetor on a motor as I have with that motor. If I don't drain the carb after each use and run the motor dry it will plug up the idle circuit every time if the motor sits for more than a week. I have cleaned out the carb so many times I think I can do it in my sleep. Once the carb is clean the motor runs like a top and works great. It has gotten to the point where I have been tempted to just get a new carb from the 8hp Classic and see if I can rejet it just to see if that would help. Stabil didn't even help it!

Having that experience and knowing the quality of EFI these days I would MUCH rather put a motor on the boat that has EFI.

[Sea Wolf]

GAry-

That Yamaha T8 High Thrust motor is one sweet engine with the electric tilt, starting, computer controlled ignition, etc. The TR-1 Autopilot adds remote starting, tilting, shifting, throttle control, and steering--wireless if you want it!!! No need to ever touch the kicker again. If you put "Yamaha T8" and "TR-1 Autopilot" into a Google web search, you get a lot of posts on various sites from folks who have installed them on their boats.

If you're interested, take a look here, for example:

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/yamahaT8Kicker.html

I'm sure it will be an expensive package with the basic TR-1 Autopilot at $2300, and I'm guessing the T8 will run about $3k. Probably cost about $6k all up.

Got to go, do some more reading...........Joe.