Newbie Questions about Engine size for 22

[browntdb]

Hello All,

I am thrilled to have found the C-Dory line of boats! I have looked at boats for months and just discovered the C-Dory. It seems to meet all my requirements: ability to sleep aboard, sedan, lightweight, able to tow easily and not need to leave boat moored, and outboard powered. I am now keeping my eyes open for a used CD 22 Cruiser. As I do that, I see many engine configurations. I will be using the Cruiser in Puget Sound and most likely won't ever take it on the open ocean. For that reason, I will be looking for a single main outboard with a kicker motor for trolling.

I have been reading the threads about the size of single outboard needed to get a 22 on plane. I am confused about the term "pre-classic and post-classic 22" and hull shape. What is the difference and when did the change take place? How does that affect HP requirements?

I am thinking that a 70HP Yamaha or Honda would be sufficient to power a 22 Cruiser, but would also consider a 90hp if you all think that is necessary.

I don't know anything about the fuel economy differences between a 70 and a 90. Also, I know I need to do a lot of reading about props and their influence on performance.

Thanks for the help.

Terry

[Sea Wolf]

Terry-

Here are some selected comments I've made earlier describing the C-Dory "Classic" as opposed to the later Cruiser and Angler models first made in 1987 and thereafter:

All 22's before 1987 are the classic models. They look like an 1987 or later Angler externally because they have a shorter cabin, but have a diffeerent layout in the cockpit and the cabin.

The pre-87's have a short cabin, an open port side of the interior bulkhead to the v-berth, a shortened dinette table and single seat to port, a small space to the rear of the helm to starboard, a lower roof line (no center bulge), the stern has a center motor well with both sides at the stern open and a shelves below, the rear cabin bulkhead and door are wood, and the boat has a flat bottom that looks exactly like the bottom of a clothes iron.


Most of us have the 1987 or later models. Those of us with the Cruisers love them for their interior amenities: galley, sink, dinette, convertible berth, private v-berth, etc. This is a conventional design that sells exactly because it has appeal to the couple/family buyer and requires little modification for most uses. The Angler, the more direct descendant of the Classic CD, is more like the original boat with a larger cockpit and a more spartan interior. The factory for a short while offered a Sport Fisher (I think that's the term) which is more of a day-use fishing boat without the rear cabin bulkhead and more dedicated seating.

The original Classic design probably seemed a little unorthodox and less immediately appealing to potential customers. The open rear sides of the cockpit and narrow central engine well don't look like a typical purpose designed fishing boat at the boatshow. The interior lacked finished definition of space and was missing the elements of spousal appeal and privacy that create the consensus necessary to write the down payment check. And the absolutely flat, seemingly cut off bottom was to most an enigma that just left most shoppers wondering. Thus the re-design of the boat for 1987.

But, having looked at and considered this design for a good number of years, it makes more and more sense, especially for use as a dedicated fishing machine.

The large and very open cockpit has loads of room and can be modified to accommodate a lot of fishing, crabbing, and other equipment. Rods, nets, livewells, fishboxes, traps, davits, dingies- maybe you can't have them all, but you can have more of them than with a two foot shorter cockpit with closed transom corners.

Internally, the cabin can be modified as needed for your specific needs. Lots of room there to tailor the boat to your fishing/boating plans. A
project person's dream with a few tools and some time.

The hull's secrets are usually untold. The absolutely flat bottom rocks somewhat less at rest than a shallow v. ( and a lot less than a deep v, which the CD's are not). It planes relatively easily, like the shallow V of the later boats, and sets flat on a mud or sand bottom with the tide out, so you won't want roll out of bed when the tide takes its leave, or need a gimballed stove for breakfast. Plus, it's draft should be even shallower than the shallow V.

Overall, it appears the Classic C-Dory was very carefully and cleverly designed as a utility fishing boat with a lot of adaptability, but not very well understood by the public after the typical quick glance or look at the boatshow or dealer's lot. Probably even a good explanation of the boats qualities and design solutions by a salesman would be met with unsettled indecision unless the prospective buyer had a wealth of knowledge and experiences with fishing boats of this size and purpose.

But that's not to say that we can't today appreciate these Classic C-Dorys for what they are and how they can be used. As a dedicated fishing boat for a person who knows what they're going to do with the vessel and can determine how it fits their needs, it may be a very good fit. Especially if one likes projects and has the time to do the work. As such a boat like this actually provides a second hobby of boat modification that is entertaining in its own right.

The standard Angler has always come with a solid Alaskan bulkhead to the rear, to my knowledge, but custom boats can be ordered.

They did make a Sport Fisher model of the Cruiser with a cut away rear bulkhead a few years ago, but have discontinued it. It had bench seats inside instead of the dinette and galley, probably best suited for charter fishing use.

It would be easy to get an Angler modified with an open rear bulkhead, as a cut-away job is a lot easier than an add-on!

As an example of a custom boat, at the Factory Party two years ago, we saw a custom order 22 Cruiser with the galley eliminated and a stand-up enclosed head substituted in the starboard rear of the cabin.

Such custom orders are probably not sought out by the factory as they tend to take additional time to produce, but may be available for a fee.

If you like the Angler with the bulkhead, it's readily available already!


Hope this helps!

Joe.
_________________

[browntdb]

Joe,

Thank you for such a thorough explanation of the differences between the boat models and vintages. That really helped me understand and gave me some history of the development of the C-Dory.

Now I just need to be patient to find a C-Dory 22 Cruiser in the price range I can afford. They seem to be very popular boats indeed!

Terry

[tpbrady]

Terry,

I think if you took a poll, you would find it 80/20 in favor of a 90 over a 70. Power when you need it, and not much difference in weight or fuel economy. Having had a 22 for 5 years, I couldn't imagine it with a 70 in a following sea needing to climb up a wave.

Tom

[Sunbeam]

quote="tpbrady"] Power when you need it, and not much difference in weight or fuel economy.[/quote]

One potentially big plus I see in the Yamaha 70 in particular (which, if I were re-powering, I would definitely be thinking about) is that it weighs in at a svelte 265#. Most 75-90 hp engines weigh in the high 300# range, with some over 400#.
With the Yamaha 70, you'd be close to what the original designers had in mind for weight (I believe they used a 70hp two-stroke).

With my Yamaha 80 and 8hp kicker, for example, I have 477# of engine on the transom. Say you had the Yamaha 70 and a Tohatsu 6 for a kicker you'd be at 324# for ~150# savings. (Not that the transom can't take the weight, but more speaking of weight in the stern and how it affects the boat.)

Not that you'd want to get a 70 if it would not be adequate for you (and I don't know whether or not it would be), but if it would....

I know a lot of 22's had the Honda 75hp - I wonder how they feel about the power (that engine isn't light like the Yamaha 70, but just speaking of horsepower).

[browntdb]

That is good advice. I am leaning toward the 90 HP engine. Thanks Tom.

Terry

[browntdb]

Sunbeam,

You make some valid points as well. Before I decide, I do need to look at actual weight because I do want a kicker. C-dories are so hard to comeby in the price range I am looking for that I might have to do some engine swapping. I found a great boat today on Boat Trader listed in Bellevue WA and called on it, and it had been sold weeks ago. Darn.

Terry

[thataway]

Joe, was the bottom of the pre 87 C Dory absolutely flat, or was there some fore and aft rocker--as there is in a true dory? I agree that there was no deadrise.

There is also a small reverse chine, which gives some further stability and lift in the post 87 boats.

I have always had a 90 on the two 22's I have owned. One of the reasons is that I run the boats heavy with gear and supplies for several weeks to a month aboard. If you are always at sea level the 70 may be enough. If you keep the boat light, the 70 may be enough. There is little difference at cruising speed for 18 to 20 knots between the carbureted 75 and 90 hp outboards.

[hardee]

I know how you feel about missing the boat. It took me 4 times to finally get mine. Always seemed to be just a step or two too far down the line.

My 22 Cruiser has 80hp. 2 yami 40's. It is OK for 95 percent of the time. but there can be times when you may want that other 5%, and when I repower, it will be with 50's. (Haven't seen a Yami 45, and don't know that I need 100hp, but I have had a couple of times that I could have used the extra HP. One time in BIG following seas, and once in crossing the Strait of Juan, where I just needed more power, faster, between the wave sets. As it was, made the trip OK, but it took longer and a bit of extra time and miles doing the jog and slog.

If you have the extra power, it doesn't mean you have to use it all the time, but it sure is nice to have it when you need it. Yes, weight is a consideration, but the power requirement is hard to get away from. It is going to happen, sometime.

Harvey
SleepyC

The water is not always like this:

[Sea Wolf]

[SENSEI]

Bob
The classic has a completly flat bottom . there is no rocker to it and it is flat edge to edge.(my 93 has the dead rise and a molded down turn on the edges.)it has a couple of 1x1/2 inch strips about 6 inches in from the edge as a sort of keel. there is also a strip down the middle as a keel.it stays flat from transom all the way to the point where the bow starts to rise.

as to engine size, I had a 65 hp two cycle on the classic when I bought it but it died soon after. I replaced it with the evinrude 90 ficht and have been very pleased with it. I think that when it comes time to repower my 93 cruiser which has a 80 yamaha 4 stroke, that that I will be looking real hard at the evinrude 115 etec. I do like the efi 2 strokes and the torque that they produce.I am also impressed with the tohatsu 2 stroke larger hp motors

[Sea Wolf]

[thataway]

Thanks guys. Plywood is usually scarfed in a 12/1 scarf when a longer sheet is needed. 3/4" can be bent in one direction, if you do the layup properly when the ply is used as a core.

[SENSEI]

[Sea Wolf]