EFI Honda 90 help!

20dauntless · Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:29 pm Post subject: EFI Honda 90 help!

I'm in Sitka and had the boat pulled for a lower unit oil change and the dealer discovered a leaky thermostat. The bigger problem is the thermostat leaks very near to the ECM and its connections. Saltwater and electronics don't mix, so I want to get this problem corrected before I leave Sitka.

Digging around a bit deeper it appears Honda issued a service bulletin about this very issue. I asked the dealer here in Sitka if there are any common problems with the BF90D, and he said there weren't any serious ones, just a problem with leaky thermostat covers. Sure enough, when they pulled the cowling off my engine, it had the same problem. Honda used a plastic thermostat cover that has a tendency to warp so the gasket no longer prevents cooling water from squirting out around the cover. I believe my engine (a 2008 model year) should have had the plastic piece replaced (the same bulletin also recommends changing from a 60 degree thermostat to a 72 degree t-stat) with a more robust metal unit, so I'm not exactly sure why two other Honda dealers haven't informed me about the issue. I also don't know why Honda can't just tell owners about these types of problems directly.

Anyway, Honda has (I think) replaced the plastic cover with a more robust metal cover. No place in Alaska has these, but I found one at Tom-n-Jerry's at Twin Bridges in Mt. Vernon. I bought it over the phone and Bill Youngsman, the owner of Twin Bridges, kindly drove it down from Twin Bridges to Shoreline (he was heading that direction anyway), where my dad picked it up, drove it to SeaTac, and gave it to Alaska Airlines to bring up tomorrow morning (major kudos to Twin Bridges, especially Randy and Bill).

The Honda dealer here wouldn't give me a print out of the service bulletin. He said he wasn't sure if he was allowed to, which was quite frustrating. He did give me the part numbers for the replacement parts and that's how I got them from Tom-n-Jerrys.

Has anyone else dealt with this issue on a Honda BF90D? Seen the service bulletin? At this point I think I have a good grasp on the issue, and hope the parts that arrive tomorrow will sort it out for good, but I'd really like to put my own eyes on the service bulletin to be sure that the parts that are being flown up tomorrow are what I really need.

I suppose I'll call Honda Marine directly tomorrow and I'll talk to EQ as well. I'm sure they'll be able to clarify.

If Honda Marine knew about this common failure before (which I strongly suspect they did) and didn't bother to inform their customers, I'm not going to be happy. I don't like spending hundreds of dollars to fix a failed $10 part that I could have preemptively replaced long ago.

If any of you have info on this I'd love to hear it, and if you have a BF90D, keep an eye out for this problem!

tsturm · Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:34 am Post subject: Re: EFI Honda 90 help!

dotnmarty · Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:36 am Post subject:

I could be wrong, but I remember reading about Honda's "True 5 year Warranty", which, if correct, may cover that repair. Good luck.

Captains Cat · Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:40 am Post subject:

Sam, I haven't looked at them but it appears that you can get Honda bf90 service bulletins for free here...

http://www.imarksweb.net/book/honda+bf90+outboard+service+bulletins/

On edit.. Dug into it further and eventually you have to "sign up" and pay $5 to get a "promotional membership". If I had a Honda bf90, I'd give it a shot but I don't.

Sorry..

Charlie

NORO LIM · Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:25 am Post subject:

Sam,

I found this reference. It's incomplete, but at least it may give you a clue as to what service bulletin number to look for.

Honda had a problem with water ingestion which damages the O2 sensor, if your sensor was replaced because of this you should check with your Honda Dealer, even if the engine is out of warranty. Your motor falls within the serial number group. Tell him to reference Service bulletin #56.
Some of the motors also had a thermostat cover problem, bulletin #50. skiltch.com

Sorry to hear about you're difficulties. What a PITA. Hope you get everything sorted out in short order.

20dauntless · Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:42 am Post subject:

The leaking is hard to see without knowing where to look. It's towards the back of the engine and covered by the cage around the ECU, so unless you take that off you can't see the problem. The dealer here knew where to look.

Just got off the phone with Honda. Not very helpful. They basically said to go to a dealer. Also said they've never heard of the issue, still use the plastic cover, and never issued a service bulletin. Despite my attempts, the guy on the phone said he could not direct me to anyone with any knowledge of parts besides the local dealer.

Kathy at EQ is checking into it now. This whole thing would be dramatically less complex if Honda published service bulletins online rather than forcing everyone to go through dealers that aren't always helpful.

20dauntless · Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:15 pm Post subject:

A little more update for those with BF90D's.

The troublesome thermostat cover is the one for the engine block thermostat. I don't actually have the replacement metal part yet (it's on Alaska flight 63 right now) but I'll have it this afternoon and it should be installed tomorrow AM. Hopefully it is the right part!

Here's something interesting. Boats.net has the part I need listed as 19315-ZW9-000. The local Honda dealer says this is the old plastic part. Another website has a parts diagram that lists 19315-ZY9-000 as the part I need, which is what the local dealer said is the metal replacement.

Honda Marines telephone support was totally unhelpful and couldn't tell me the difference between the parts, or which one I should have.

I just talked with Kathy at EQ and she looked up all the bulletins and didn't see one regarding this issue, nor had they seen problems in their shop.

Realistically this isn't that big a deal and the part is inexpensive. My bigger problem is if Honda really did know about the problem and didn't fix it. And getting parts up to Alaska quickly isn't all that easy!

As long as the part the dealer told me to order is really the correct one, I should have everything sorted out tomorrow AM. Not a big deal since I was already going to be in Sitka until the 15th.

Will-C · Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:50 pm Post subject: EFI Honda 90 help!

It's ashame that the marine engine manufacturers are not required to notify the public as they are by the government regarding automobile recalls and defects. Since it could be a safety issue having your engine just stop in heavy seas etc. regardless if you checked your oil that particular morning or not.
D.D.

starcrafttom · Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:25 pm Post subject:

I'm confused. If you are having your boat worked on by a honda dealer is sitka and its a honda recall then why are you ordering the part and not the honda dealer?? whats the difference between a recall and service bulletin? who pays for it?

thataway · Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:00 am Post subject:

I can understand Sam's going around the dealer to expedite the issue.

There are a few items I carry in my "kit" these include a quasi steel epoxy, J B weld and JB weld Kwik, as well as a plastic epoxy repair. It is amazing what you can fabricate using old parts, a Dremel tool (rechargeable), and some silicone gasket material, along with an assortment of gasket material....I suspect that if you don't get the metal part, that you can fabricate some repair which will keep water off the unit.

20dauntless · Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:56 am Post subject:

nuipukawai · Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:47 am Post subject:

Sorry I'm late to this discussion. As said before, I'm a Honda Marine dealer. It's late so I'll just make some random comments. Previously mentioned Ser. Bull. #50 and #56 are related to BF200 and225 engines- totally unrelated to the BF90. S.B. #73 relates to oil dilution on BF90D engines that MAY occur on certain engines, especially those apt to be operated in low water temps and at sustained low engine speeds (hull speed on a CDory?). Oil dilution must be substantially verified, and then if so, a new head gasket and tstat is available. The S.B says:

Earlier engines have a plastic thermostat cover.
This cover can get distorted by corrosion. If the
cover is distorted, replace it with an improved
aluminum type.

Repairs made under this SB outside of the warranty period, may be eligible for goodwill consideration.

There is no bulletin on the tstat cover specifically. The part # you quoted is the newer aluminum part. When we need a part, stat, Honda has an urgent part order process- we've actually received parts overnite here in Hawaii, Alaska might take a bit longer. You will pay some freight for that speed, though...
Depending on the exact date your engine was sold, it may still be under Honda's True 5 Warranty- see details here:
http://marine.honda.com/pdf/warranty/P-PWL50415-J_%20Mar_Ltd_Warr.pdf
Honda is a great company, and believe me, they do everything possible to keep their customers happy. They are however a huge corp with a large legal department and their on-phone customer service folks are limited to how far they can get involved directly with a customer. That is why they refer you the the local dealer. It's a shame if the dealer doesn't step to the plate and take care of your problem directly.
What I've seen happen before is that the customer will call Honda Customer Service (these people are NOT technicians). They will gather info and usually have the Honda Marine Service manager contact the dealer to make sure the customer is being well cared for and the problem corrected.
I've said it before, find a good local dealer and cultivate a relationship with them. Glad this issue turned out to be "manini" (small, inconsequential). Maybe see some of you in a couple weeks on the west side of Prince of Wales Island- look for......Hunky Dory! Aloha, Steve

20dauntless · Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:42 am Post subject:

Steve, thanks so much! That's the same bulletin that the local dealer was referring to. I haven't noticed the engine "making" any oil, so I don't think I have a problem with oil contamination. I'll certainly keep an eye out for it.

One of the frustrating parts here is that the Honda dealer didn't really make much of an effort to get the part here quickly. He called the Honda dealer in Juneau to see if they had it in stock (they didn't), but he did not even bother to check with Honda Marine to see when the part could arrive if he ordered it. Something about having to wait on the phone for hours on hold. So I just figured it out myself.

Again, thank you for the clarification!

nuipukawai · Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:56 pm Post subject:

On the phone for hours on hold? Never happened to me. If I need a Honda part quickly, 2 minutes on the computer and I know for sure it's on its way to me as quickly as I choose. Different business styles, I guess. I can't dis the AK dealer, though. This is the height of their short, busy season. I hope they're able to stay on top of things, and get some fishing in themselves! Again, glad it was a minor issue. Thanks for the continuing updates. Be safe and adventurous. Aloha, Steve.

mcolp

Hello All,

I have a 2007 Honda BF90D 90 EFI and have checked since day one for any
recalls or service bulletins and only (1) recall is mentioned and I have not seen
any service bulletins on this particular model. There are recalls and service
bulletins listed for other models but not for the "new: 90 EFI. The dealers I've
contacted in this part of the country are clueless.

I went ahead and ordered new parts just to be on the safe side and have
spares in case this issue rears it's ugly head.

Thermostat Cover 19300-ZY9-000 (Hopefully It's Aluminum)
Thermostat Assy 19315-ZW9-003
Thermostat Cover O-Ring 19317-ZW9-000

Regarding the fuel dilution problem:

I have often wondered if that was happening because every time I have
changed the oil (which is quite frequent compared to the recommended
schedule) I always have noticed a strong odor to the oil compared to
every other engine I have ever owned.
By the way I have not observed any increase in the oil level on the dipstick.
I assumed that with fuel injection there would be relatively precise metering
of fuel to each cylinder compared to a carburator. In addition, I assumed
that because the BF90D EFI engine is certified "low emission" it would run relatively lean. Fuel dilution is not good for the bearings and reduces the
lubricity of the oil among other things.
Fuel dilution works good in aviation (DC3s) for reducing the viscosity of straight weight oil in order to start a radial engine in frigid temperatures but not in new Honda 90 EFIs. I question Honda's Programable Fuel Injection algorithm.
I don't think that anyone has been able to get a straight answer from Honda.
If anyone can figure out how to get service bulletins from Honda Marine,
please let me know.

By the way, I have had Zero issues with this engine.

Well I've rambled on long enough.

Mike
CD22 "Allyson Marie"