Twin Suzuki's or Honda's for a new 22?

[Lil Rascal]

I have ordered a new 22 with twin Suziki 40's. I am contemplating changing to twin Honda's. Any pro's or con's to help my decision? Suzuki has 3+3 year warranty, Honda has 3+2 with specials they are running. Thanks,

Scott

[Chris]

Scott... I'd be sure you have dealer support in your area...the Suzi dealer network is real thin...can be tough to find one for after sale support. And my vote would be for a single...but you didn't ask about that!

[Casey]

Chris is correct about the "thin" dealer network; but there is a very good chance you will never require warranty work. For "ordinary" stuff you may want to check with a local Johnson/Evinrude dealer; their 4-stroke is made by Suzuki.

I have a Suzuki 90 on the CD22. We also have a Honda 90 on a 17 Whaler Montauk (do I get censored for mentioned that on C-Brats?). Wish I didn't love the Whaler/Honda so much; I'd sell it. As it is, I love them both. Much more time on the Honda (owned it since '99), and although it's a great engine, I've had the carburetors cleaned 2-3 times in the past six years (expensive). (That's with Stabil used during every storage periods.)

Suzuki is fantastic. We have a little over 200 hours now, and there is just Nothing I don't like. PARTICULARLY like the fuel injection (no carb's); it's fast starting and Sandy tell me it's even quieter than the Honda.

Regarding the twins - were I buying today I'd have to give twins serious consideration, but think I'd still go with the single 90. I would definitely buy Suzuki again. When Honda comes out with EFI, I would then consider it.

Now if someone would come out with a counter-rotation option on small OB's (ie 40hp) THAT would be the ticket! Regrettably, the market is so small, I never expect that to occur.

Good luck. Among those choices; there are no bad alternatives.

Casey
C-Dory Naknek
Montauk Manana

[Chuck S]

Check the Suzuki Nooooooooooo! thread on C-Dogs...

-- Chuck

[New Hampshire Guy]

As a rule right now, the 4 stroke Suzukis are better than the Hondas below 150hp ( the Suzukis are all electronic fuel injection). Suzukis went all 4 stroke sooner, but Hondas are catching up. The Suzuki warranty can't be beat, and until the end of March the extra 3 yr warranty (for a total of 6 yrs) is free (I think that would be a $2,000 upgrade). The only reason to go Honda right now is the financing - otherwise stick with your plan and welcome to the BRATS!
Good question. Normally people stress over twin 40's or twin 50's!
Fair winds...
John

[Les Lampman]

[Captains Cat]

Old Guy bests New Guy! Sure glad you're back Les....Very well written as usual. I love my Honda 45's on Captain's Choice, they quit making them around 1995 and went to 40s and 50's. I feel quite comfortable in the middle...

Glad to have you too New Guy, I've got a house in Downeast Maine (heading up there this weekend for 6-8 weeks, my bride has the snowbird thing backwards) will try to stop by your place some day when I've got the boat behind...

Charlie

[Sawdust]

Charlie,

You going to walk up and give the knee a little work out - or drive?

Dusty

[Captains Cat]

Dusty, I'm gonna run alongside the truck and let my bride drive....No, I'm gonna drive... I get nervous when she does. Funny how I can be sleepy as heck and let her take over and all of a sudden, I'm wide awake....

It's about 900 miles, we overnight just north or Hartford. It was a heck of a lot closer when we lived near Boston 97-99. I'll send you some pix or post them. We've got 3 ft of snow on the ground and I've got two cords of firewood to stack. Will for sure stop at the NH liquor store and lay me in a stock of single malt!!

Now the struggle comes when we try to remember all the stuff we've got to bring with us!!

Charlie

[New Hampshire Guy]

WOW,
Some loyal Honda kids out there. Allow me to recap.
1) In response to Scotty's PLAN to purchase Suzukis, I wrote Suzukis are better below 150hp because of the EFI. If anybody wants to show loyalty to Hondas, I welome them to, uh, choke it. Be my guest. Honda PLANS to go to EFI, so I guess that's where they can catch up.
2) If Honda has a longer track record, I didn't know it before now.
3) Warranty, whether insurance or not, Suzuki wins again (and again, Honda is catching up).
4) And in response to Scotty's PLAN to get Suzukis, I said the only reason to go Honda was the financing, which is excellent at this time.

Recap
1) Correct
2) Maybe
3)Correct
4) Correct

Never said a bad thing, only the truth. If anyone has Suzuki Envy you'll get a chance to repower (but it will take time with these 4 strokes!).
Best of luck to all BRATS. Peace on earth, etc, etc.
Fair Winds...
John

PS I love this site...

[New Hampshire Guy]

And thanks Charlie!
We'll put you on our list to invite for our Lake get-together, roughly scheduled for May (but you are welcome anytime!)
Cheers!
John

[Phantom]

I'm not going to get too deeply involved in which is "best,"but I do want to offer a bit of perspective based on personal experience.

Electronic fuel injection, ignition, etc. are certainly the wave of the future, both in cars and boats. In cars, that future is pretty much already here. All of that "progress" is not without significant downsides, however.

First of all, there are different kinds of fuel injection. The simplist, throttle-body injection, just dumps the gasoline into the center of the manifold like some carbs, and lets the intake runners carry it to each cylinder. A little more precise than most carbs, but similar in many respects. Not necessarily any performance advantage over a well set up carb(s).

Direct port injection is more precise. It carries the fuel directly to each intake port, eliminating some of the inconsistencies of carbs and throttle-body injections. Performance and economy are usually slightly better than most carb setups, but not necessarily by a noticeable amount.

With the exception of some of the early Hillborn and other similar fuel injection systems, neither performance nor economy were the main motivators for fuel injection. Emissions control was the driving force. An electronic chip could control fuel mixtures and ignition profiles for the lowest possible emissions, sometimes at the expense of both performance and economy. High performance aftermarket chips and custom "maps" for CPU's are now big business.

Most of us are concerned about the environment, and regard emissions control as a good thing. Electronic F.I. and ignition are a big help in that regard.

As in most things, there is no free lunch here, though. Carburetors, distributors and magnetos are no longer cutting-edge, but for those of us who take our boats in harm's way(offshore)they have a distinct advantage.

A carb will get out of tune over a period of time like any mechanical device. Most of them are simple enough for even the mechanically challenged to repair. Usually carb problems are a gradual thing, giving significant notice before ceasing to function. Same with mechanical ignition.

If you get some bad fuel and water gets past your filter/separator, it's a simple matter to drain the float bowls and clean out the jets on a carb compared to dealing with the same problem on fuel injection. That is doubly true when the carb is a simple design as on an outboard.

Likewise, on the older distributors, if the wear block controlling the points wore down, or the condensor went out, no problem. You could reset the point gap using a matchbook cover if necessary, and a condensor was something that everybody carried, and replaceable in minutes. User-friendly.

With very few exceptions, if your electronics go out, on either your fuel injection or ignition, you are usually dead in the water. (unless you have twins, and water problems in the fuel could knock out both.)

A few years ago I was putting a large boat in the water at a launching ramp in the Delta. I had a new Dodge Power Wagon for a tow vehicle. After launching the boat, I tried to re-start the truck to get it off the ramp and park it. It would not start. The electronic ignition had picked that time to go out. No warning at all. It was at dusk, several miles from the nearest city, I was alone, and the tide was coming in.

That malfunction almost cost me my life a couple of hours later, but that's another story.

A corollary to Murphy's Law states that any mechanical malfunction will always occur at the worst possible time. This was positive proof.

Running offshore, I would much rather have some indication of a problem before being put out of business. Carbs give you a better chance of that than F. I.

I'm not holding out against progress. If my chosen motor has fuel injection, that's fine. In time, that will be the only choice.

I won't necessarily regard it as an improvement, though. In some ways yes, in others, no.

Don

[Cutty Sark]

Just another opinion but I would go suzuki. I have done some research lately and was told the warranty issues as far as dealer support has changed. I -90 marine does warranty work and if I'm not mistaken he told me the rep claimed it was all changing as far as that. Now this dealer sells and is certified to work on hondas and suzuki and mercury. So he had nothing to gain by pushing one brand over the other. He said he felt the new suzuki's are superior in that they are EFI, lighter for equal HP than the hondas and seemed to have more power, for the HP. I also have seen many threads where people are talking about having to have the honda carbs cleaned often. Plus a six year warranty is sure hard to beat. And I agree with an above post, in my book a main and a kicker makes much more sense than twins, for if one goes out you can only get to hull speed anyway and twins are heavier if I'm not mistaken. Plus all three who upgraded to a 25 at the show went with a single after having twins. And that says something to me as well. Good luck. And I'm sure any motor you decide on will be great anyway.

Sark

[DaveS]

Hi Scotty,
I must have missed this thread when you first posted on it. I had Les install twin Johnson 50's on "Sea Shift" and the Johnson is a Suzuki under a Johnson cover. I am extremely satisfied with it! I had a single Honda 50 on my previous 16' C-Dory and was likewise very satisfied with it. I have no difficulties with either. The instrumentation gauges and versatility of the gauges with the Johnsons are superior to the Honda gauges that I previously had. (They include "Fuel Remaining", "Fuel Consumption" etc.). (The additional plus with the Johnson is the "white colored" housing of the engine....looks good on the C-Dory!.....but of course that is strictly "cosmetic in nature"). You know what they say....."blondes are more fun" .....tee hee....couldn't resist throwing in this comment!

[Sawdust]

Oh Boy! I get to climb up on my soap box again.

I've had them both - EFI and cab - both great, and I'm not brand loyal in any way. Horsepower is horsepower - 90 = 90 - doesn't matter which brand you chose.

I wish we had mean-time-between-failure (MTBF) data on outboard motors like we do on aircraft engines. I've replaced enough fuel injection pumps in diesels - and cleaned, metered, and replaced fuel injectors, so that I know EFI or FI is not foolproof. Because I go offshore a long way, and work the lonely part of Vancouver Island, reliability is important.

If an alternator goes dead on an EFI motor put another log on the fire! It varies from motor to motor, but a big chunk of the alternator output is used by the EFI system... I'm told as much as 15 or 20 amps. Lots of battery or a kicker that can take you where you've gotta go.

Of the 7 or 8 hundred skippers at our lovely little pub, I expect at least 5 hundred are Honda owners. Some complaints, you bet, because that's a big sample size. But it would be interesting to do a survey and see just how many problems are Honda problems, and how many skipper problems... and it also would help if the Zuzi and Yami folks did the same.

One of my big concerns with EFI is WHERE I boat. If I can't work on a carb engine myself, I can always find a mech in any fishing village that can clean a carb. I try and carry an extra electronic module... learned the hard way after my 1-ton Ford with a 32 ft. 5th wheel was DIW (dead in the water) in front of a major Las Vegas casino -- at 5 p.m. Oh, what the fuzz said!!!

All that said, I'm going EFI E-TEC 2-stroke this time! I've said it before several times in other threads, the dealer is the important part of the equation. My local dealer sells Johnson (Suzuki), Honda, Datsun, and was a service center for Yamaha. The Suzuki and Yamaha dealers are too far away.

Shoot away,

Dusty