Kicker size & performance for CC 23

[hank schneider]

Hi Folks
I've been looking int trading up to a 25-26 foot boat with twin engines for safety. I'd like to go to the Bahamas - one engine would probably lay down about midway and me with just a paddle.
I have a 135 Honda efi on the boat right now - If I don't trade up I would like to add a kicker for safety and for trolling. I looked at the 9.9 and 15's by Honda - I assume I need the long shaft and electric start.

Does anyone have an idea of how fast these models would push my CC?

Any comment about cost/benefit of a larger model?

Also I see there is a remote control console for some engines (Nissan). Are these worth it?

Can you steer with your big engine with the kicker running straight?

So many questions!! Thanks
Hank

[journey on]

Well, we have a 10 hp honda for a kicker on Journey On, a C-25. The once we used it, it gave about 5 knts, which wasn't a big thrill. However, we also use it on our dingy, so we can't get a larger motor. Since you have a 23, a 10 would probably do a lot better, as would a different prop pitch. The moral of this story is don't use a plastic prop on your main engine.

Anyway, here are a few thoughts on a kicker. First why do you need electric start? The small motors all start easily, and a starter adds 10 lbs and ~$200 (for Honda.)

Speaking of Honda, they're heavy. Since we learned never to trailer with the kicker on the bracket, Judy and I have to heave that Honda onto the bracket each time. Look at the Tohatsu's they're 20# lighter, a lot cheaper, and from what I've seen, just as dependable.

As I've proven, you can steer the boat using the kicker without remote controls. As something you may never use, why invest in extra complexity?

By the way that 23 is a good boat, and a kicker and outboard bracket is a lot cheaper than a bigger boat with twin engines. At the beginning and in maintainance.

Boris

[hank schneider]

Hey Boris
Thanks for the info - that is about what I would expect - 5mph is a lot quicker than a dead drift if my engine dies. For trolling and emergency situations the regular steering is probably suficient. Anything with a cord and handle never starts for me and my ole rotator cuff.
Hank

[ross_ballard]

Hi Hank
I purchased a Venture 23 from Port Boat House in Port Alberni, British Columbia last July. The boat is great, we've explored the BC coast a little with it so far and are really pleased with it's performance.
Because I have a long past exploring the whole BC coast and going for 4 week trips at a time, we carry alot of gear and supplys on board. I've gone with a 150 hp Yamaha and a 9.9 hp Yamaha for back up. Great motors and I've got plenty of power to get me places in all weather conditions. We cruise at between 20-22 knots at about 4000 rpm to 4200 rpm (NOTE: spec. top rpm is rated between 5000-6000) depending on the load we are carring. Fuel consumption taken by a designated fuel flow meter installed on board is between 1.2 to 1.4 litres per knotical mile depending on running light or heavy. I'm not a fisherman and have the long shaft 9.9 Yamaha with electric start, tiller arm, and power tilt, bolted to our transom. No need for a motor bracket. I can attach the 9.9 to the 150 and steer at the helm if needed. The 9.9 will push us at a maximum of 5 knots. (all speeds are taken by GPS)
I'm happy with my choises and really enjoy the quiet motors. The Venture 23 is prpbably about 1000 lbs heavier that the C-Dory specs. in the brochure (I've weighed the boat on our BC Highways scale) so I would not think of powering the boat with less than 135 hp.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
Ross

[Matt Gurnsey]

Keep in mind that the theoretical hull speed of a 23' boat is around 5 knots, and to get much faster than that requires quite a bit of horsepower.

We have installed Yamaha's high thrust 8 on a lot of much larger boats, to good success. I would think anything above a 9.9 is just wasted money, as it probably won't push the boat any faster.

We also use a stainless steel tie bar between the main and kicker, so that you can steer the boat either with the kicker by tiller handle, or both engines together. These are under $100, and mount to the front of the engines for easy removal when not using the kicker.

Side story-

Recently in our shop was a 24' deep V hulled boat (Sea Sport or Skagit Orca- I don't recall which) that has a 25 HP Yamaha kicker on it. This required a custom built aluminum bracket that was quite stout and quite expensive.

Looking at the prop on this motor, I noticed serious cavitation burns on the prop. Which after thinking about it, made sense. Once the boat was up to hull speed, any additional throttle given the engine caused the prop to slip, causing cavitation.

Moral of the story- that owner could have rigged the boat with a high thrust 8 or 9.9, and had the same perfromance with less fuel burn, and less expense in the installation.

[thataway]

We have a 15 Hp electric start Honda--and the reason I have the electric start is because of back problems--so there is a reason--but I agree, that for the "normal" person that a 9.9 rope start is fine. We already had the Honda, and use it on a large inflatable. We also only get about 5 miles an hour, but I have gone to Catalina many hundred times at 5 miles an hour--or at times considerably less. It gets you there!

[hank schneider]

Thanks Ross & Bob
The 5 KPH sounds reasonable to me
Matt - thanks for the technical info
I'm going to stick with a honda - I'm very happy with the performance of the 135 and I like things that match. I still have yet a few more questions.

Shaft length for a CC 23 - I assume I'll need the longer shaft?

My boat has trim tabs (lenco) it looks pretty close - I'd like the motor mounted to the transom rather than a bracket. Probably could tilt it a little.

Left or right? I'm thinking left to balance my 250 when I'm alone. Does it matter?

Thanks Hank

[ross_ballard]

Hi again Hank
Yes, you will need an long shaft kicker.
Mounting to the transom is ideal.
I did forget to mention that my 9.9 Yamaha is a high thrust as well.
As to mounting port or starboard, my kicker is mounted on the port. My Venture 23 water tank is also on the port. I do have a small list to port, I'm sure due to the water tank and kicker on that side. I am aware of the greater list when loaded heavily with water, so I'm consious to store all my heavy gear on the starboard side, to help neutralize the list. When running the boat solo, you'll find that she will probably lay quite level in the water with the kicker mounted on the port side.
However if the kicker were mounted on the starboard side, the tiller arm would interfer with the main motor.
I also have Bennet trim tabs and a permatrim hydrafoil on my 150 Yamaha. I'm again very pleased with having both installed. I use the trim tabs to level out the boat, and hold the bow down when getting up on plane, and help hold the bow down in rougher weather. The permatrim also holds the bow down in rougher weather, but also steadys the boat in all conditions. The permatrim makes the boat handel like a longer boat in all conditions and minimizes porpesing. It also gives me a lot better stearage when docking at low speeds. There is a lot of information on permatrims and trim tabs on this site. I feel both are well worth the money spent.
In a heavy following sea I have to lift my trim tabs fully up. The permatrim is a new addition and I haven't experienced a heavy following sea with the permatrim as yet.
The thought of going to a 8 hp or 9.9 hp. I choose the 9.9 due to the fact that I like to go on long cruises and explore the most remote areas on the BC Coast that my range will allow. If I have problems with my main engine then it's going to be a long cruise at 5 knots to where I could find mechanical help at a reasonable rate. I don't have to run the 9.9 wide open to gain 5 knots and I have a little power left over if I may need it.
I agree that the hull speed for my Venture 23 is around 5-6 knots.

Hull speed in knots = 1.34 times (the square root of the length of the boat at the water line measured in feet)

You could get away with an 8hp kicker, but I'm sure I would have to push it harder to try and attain 5 knots.
More than a 9.9hp, I agree, you won't go any faster than 5-6 knots and you will be adding uneeded weight to the boat and a greater expence for minimal gain.
From my research, Honda's and Yamaha's, are both great engines. There seems to be more service representation for Yamaha's on the upper areas of the BC coast than Honda's.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Ross

[Tortuga]

I just mounted a 6 hp Tohatsu on my CD 22 -- and it pushes the boat quite well. Max speed about 5 knots -- but I do notice there is virtually no difference in speed between 3/4 throttle and WOT -- so I assume I am at hull speed with the 6. It only weighs about 50 pounts and gets the job done. I'll steer with a tiller extension (the lateral tiller extension designed for sailboat tillers -- not an outboard tiller extension). That will allow me to sit comfortably on the starboard lazerette and steer like I used to steer my sailboats. (Motor is mounted on port side) As Bob said, getting to Catalina at 5 knots will take 6 hours -- so may as well be comfortable!

I would think the 8 hp for the V 23 would be perfect -- and with the twin cylinders a bit less vibration to boot.

M

[Wandering Sagebrush]

[journey on]

Steve, you have my sympathy. It's sorta like trying to start a bike and hitting the footpeg when you're giving it your all.

And the small Honda has reminded me that it's in gear. I just haven't done the damage you have.. To tell the truth, we've only started it once on Journey On. The rest of the time it's been on the dingy and I refuse to install a battery there. When we/I started it on the big boat, I'll guarantee there was enough adrenaline to yank the sucker right through compression, or whatever it is that stops the rope.

Anyway, hope your hand grows back, and I understand your use of an electric start.

Boris