Anchor Rode Jumps off Gypsy

[Edward Thieme]

I ususally travel by myself so on my new C-25 I had the Lewmar Pro-Series windlass installed so I could stay in the cabin at the controls to drop the anchor exactly where I want and not have the boat drift as I went forward to deploy the anchor.

The problem is when on the rope part of the anchor rode if there is any slack before I can stop the windlass many times the rope will lift the control arm and jump out of the gypsy.

There is tension on this arm, it seems free, no hang ups and I used WD40 on the pivot point but can't cure the problem. The rode is 1/2 inch 3 strand Samson Pro-Set line. There is no problem retrieving the anchor.

To self deploy a 22lb Bruce anchor I hung a few links of heavy chain on the hole at the front of the anchor.

Ed on "Rambler"

[marvin4239]

I have the same problem with the same windlass. What has helped me is to put footage markers (purchased at West Marine) on the rode and between watching them and knowing the depth from my sounder just before I estimate the anchor will hit bottom I start backing down to put a slight strain on the rode. I don't know if this is and accepted method but it does work to some degree for me. Hopefully some more knowledgeable people will reply. I also have my chain marked 5 feet from the anchor so I can slow the retrieve to avoid the anchor banging around on retrieval.

[thataway]

The other option is to power down the anchor, (depending on depth) or hit the up (and lock the rode, just as the anchor hits the bottom).

I don't see that powering in reverse will do any harm, but you don't have much scope out when the anchor just hits, and then you will end up powering down the 7:1 rode...

[marvin4239]

Don't know if my previous post made sense but what I try to do is not let the anchor line go slack by backing the boat while powering the rode out until I get the proper scope. Without a little strain on the rode it will jump out every time.

[flrockytop]

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the timely post.

I also have the exact same problem. As a matter of fact, as we speak, I am in the process of working on the windlass. I just came inside to cool off while the bat for the drill charges. I am using Fortress type anchor and its not heavy enough to self launch. I am in the process of installing the self launch roller that I got from Marc at Wefings.

While doing this, I could see that the windlass is not quit lined up on the center line of the boat. I was going to go to the trouble of re-doing the windlass but if other people are having the same problem I now do not think that lining up the windlass better is going to help. I think its time to call Lewmar on this.

Mine will also sometimes jump off when retrieving if I do not keep the rode tight. ( I can not pull forward to take the strain off of the rode and then power retrieve). It does not always jump off when doing this but it some times does. If the seas are rough and the boat bouncing so the only weight is the anchor, chain and rode it will more than likely jump out.

First thing tomorrow it’s a call to Lewmar.



Roger

[Levity]

What you are describing sounds like issue I had on Levity. My solution was to add a fairlead between the self launching anchor roller and the windlass. The fairlead was an AR4 from West Marine(old catalog). The new catalog calls them platform bow roller #9397167. The rode does not jump off the gypsy when deploying or retreiving since the fairlead was added.
Mike "Levity"

[flrockytop]

Hi Mike,

Would you happen to have a picture of your set-up? I looked on your album but didn't see it.

Roger

[drjohn71a]

I have the same problem and would also like to see a photo of the fairlead in position.

John

[sportner]

I use 8 plait rode made by Lewmar (others available) and it is much more limber than typical 3-strand and lays loose with the same stength. For an example of how limber it is...300' and 20' of chain came in one 5 gallon bucket. It is a little more expensive but can be found on sale occasionally on the Defender marine site.

[RichardW]

I have the same Lewmar windlass and installed a Windline AR-4 when I first installed the windlass just to get more wrap on the gypsy. I bought the recommended Lewmar rope and chain rode. If constant tension could be maintained on the rode, it would work but it is way too sensitive. In practice, it takes a lot of finese and ideal condtions to maintain tension.

I have used the windlass in both power up/down mode and in free fall mode with no appreciable difference in results. I have thought about trying an 8 plait rode but am not there yet.

I did talk with Lewmar and they wanted photos of the setup which I have never sent. I noticed that when the rode is being let out, the clutch unwinds and leaves a large (3/8"+) gap so that the rode can move to the side of the tension finger causing a jam. To me, this is a clear design defect. I will likely take the thing apart and find a way to limit the clutch so that it spins freely but this gap is eliminated. Or I may need to design a better follower rather than the Lewmar finger which is crude at best.

I hope to get time to carefully troubleshoot this aggrevating problem soon.

If any sage brats out there have an analysis and a sure fix, PLEASE enlighten us.

[Sea Wolf]

Wow! This is a tough one, something we've encountered before, but only with varying degrees of success.

Actually, I think we're all getting closer to finding a solution here, and I'd like to see if we're all thinking alike, as I feel these are recurring problems with most windlasses, not entirely unique to the models you're using.

First off, let me say that I don't think there's anything more temperamental and difficult to keep working optimally than these combination rode windlass models that try to handle both rope and chain on a single gypsy.

It seems evident from reading the above posts and many others that there are a number of problems that make the typical combination windlass difficult engineer and operate consistently.

First, there is the very difficult task of getting a gypsy to have both effective rope grasping qualities ("teeth") and also have effective pockets for gripping the chain links on the same wheel or gypsy.

Secondly, add to this the problem that the typical horizontal windlass only has a 90 degree rode contact area, and the typical vertical style only about 180 degrees, and our grip problem becomes magnified.

Then, thirdly, there's the issue of how to help keep the rode in contact with the gypsy. This is usually at least partially solved with addition of the Fleming (pressure finger), but getting the correct tension to hold both rope and chain and also preventing the rode from jumping out of the contact zone and/or jamming is another engineering feat in itself.

Next, we encounter the problem of having to choose the right rope for the job. Either too stiff or too soft a rope can be a problem. Too soft a rope leads to easy jamming in the gypsy teeth and/or Fleming, and too stiff a rope leads to one that jumps out of the gypsy/Fleming pathway on it's own volition. Complicating this is that each windlass model has it's own rope preferences.

Finally, we have to figure out how to pass the rope/chain splice with it's much larger and bulging diameter and stiffness though the system, and another problem area emerges.

Clearly, things are getting a bit complicated and hard to find simple solutions for. Maybe it's time to reflect a bit.

Thinking about the above issues, one can see that what is probably needed is some way to keep uniform tension on the rode as it's fed into the gypsy from BOTH SIDES: forward of the gypsy toward the bow roller, and behind or below the gypsy from the rode locker. Another way of saying this is to say that the typical combination rode windlass just doesn't have enough parts to do the job correctly!

What would probably work best would be a multiple capstan/idler wheel arrangement, perhaps approaching a serpentine pathway which would insure full and firm contact on the gypsy and uniform tension throughout the drive system. However, we're talking small boats here, not ones with room for elaborate engineering solutions.

Adding a single extra roller like several of you have suggested would seem like a very valuable step in the right direction, perhaps solving some of the problems outright. Would it be advantageous to add some resistance to the roller's turning to help maintain uniform tension? Could a fairlead or roller be added below deck to help add tension on that side of the gypsy? How do we get the entire system to flow smoothly and not jam? At least now we can agree on what's wrong and/or why things don't always work the way they should.

Unfortunately, this whole problem is complicated grossly when adding a "Free Fall" system with it's disengaging clutch and high speed, free wheeling rode dropping operation. Then, as Richard W points out, worse yet has been to add into the design a clutch disengagement device which offsets the gypsy from the Fleming, defeating most all of the purpose for which the pressure finger was designed for in the first place! Design defect indeed! How will we get the Fleming to follow the gypsy during the disengagement? ??????

It looks like we need to find a supple rope, chain, and splice that will all pass through some "checkpoints" or fairleads fore and aft of the gypsy which will not only supply direction to the rode, but also provide constant tension and accomodate the starting and stopping surges. I think it's time to experiment and test. At least we'll find out if we're on the right track!

I think it's important to note that what also complicates this whole set of problems is that each individual combination of windlass model, anchor, bow roller, and rode is slightly different than all the others and therefore requires a unique solution.

I fought these same problems for a year or more myself, and finally decided that one simple solution was 1) to use all chain in the commonly used part of the rode (first 100 feet), 2) to power the rode both down and up, and 3) to make a smaller diameter chain/rope splice to pass through the windlass more easily. {Some detailed advantages of the all chain system are mentioned below from another thread.)

Obviously this is an ongoing development project. We need those photos of Levity's and Richard W's set ups, and I'll include below a description of a similar arrangement as soon as I can find it.

Thanks for allowing me to sort this out with you. Maybe we can find some better solutions by working and thinking together on a very difficult problem.

Joe.

********************

All chain advantages:

I have mentioned that I have an all-chain rode on my CD-22 many times.

Actually, it's 100 feet of 1/4" GS40 High Test chain followed by 150 feet of 1/2" three-strand Nylon rope, the rope being for more traditional anchoring situations where more scope is possible.

However, since I usually anchor in a steep-sided inland lake, I can't get the desired 5:1 or more scope ratios recommended for anchoring, so the solution that works is to use an lot of chain and an oversized anchor to hook up as quickly as possible and to minimize the rode length so as to keep the boat off the shore in narrow inlets.

To that end, the 100 foot of chain weighs 74 lbs, and the Fortress FX-16, while only weighing 10 lbs, is size-intended for 33-38 foot boats.

One real positive advantage of the all-chain rode is that the boat "searches" or wanders much less at anchor in the shifting winds as compared to how much it would with a long and light section of rope and a short chain. This is particularly advantageous in those narrow anchorages.

Another advantage is that the windlass gypsy and the chain have ZERO SLIPPAGE as compared with using rope. Essentially, you have a chain and a sprocket, not a friction tooth and rope arrangement. The all chain rode does not ever slip out of the guidance system, anywhere! And it resists twisting, spinning the anchor around upon retrieval to eliminate any twisting in the chain.

The chain also brings less water aboard when it is retrieved as compared to a saturated rope.

I originally had some problems passing the larger diameter rope to chain splice with my Quick Aries 500 windlass, but solved the problem by inventing my own splicing technique. Discussion HERE.

Using 100 feet of chain up front enables me to anchor most all the time without getting down to the rope section.

It's been a great addition to my boat, and helped solve several problems at once, and additionally helps to hold the bow down in chop, necessitating less gas wasting bow down trim with the motor.

This system works for me where I boat, but, as they say, YMMV! (Your Mileage May Vary)

[flrockytop]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the analysis. You seem to be spot on with the problems. In my case the FF is an almost must. I'm anchoring in at least 80 to 110 feet of water and trying to end up in a pretty exact spot. This usually entails a few test to see the drift. There is almost always a fair amount of current and wind that doesn't match the current. Then I move up to compensate for the amount of scope I'm going to put out. Now when I drop the anchor it needs to get down as quickly as possible. If I'm lucky all works out and I'm pretty close to where I want to be. When I was chartering 5 or 6 days a week, I got amazingly good at doing this single handedly with a FF windlass. I could actually do it better by myself than with a deck hand.

Roger

[Christopher-Robyn]

In the U.S. Navy Underway Replenishment world, we solved a similar problem with wire rope by developing an Anti-Slack Device (ASD). If a winch operator on the delivery ship pays out wire rope faster than the receiving ship brings it aboard, loose wraps and "bird-caging" occurs on the winch drum with devastating results. We designed the ASD with a powered sheave having flexible side plates that squeeze tightly on the wire and is powered to always rotate in a payout direction. By placing the ASD outboard of the winch, the wire rope is always kept tight on the winch drum no matter how fast it is payed out. This principle could easily be applied to a windlass using synthetic line.
Paul K

[timflan]

Joe, I just want to say "thanks!" I'm always learning something here.

I've read before about your all-chain rode, and I'll admit my initial reaction went something like this: "All chain? The guy's nuts! Why would he want all that weight out on the bow of a lightweight planing hull? Just where and when is he anchoring where he needs all chain? Crazy!"

But last week, I became really REALLY frustrated with my windlass. Not for the first time. I think my exact quote to a knowledgable friend was "I thought the whole point of a windlass was so I wouldn't have to go out on the foredeck, work hard, get dirty, and risk smashing my fingers?!?" As it was, I was only able to bring the rope/chain splice through the gypsy by playing the rode...applying tension by pulling with my hands, while my daughter tried to hear and obey my commands to her on the switch. This was INCREDIBLY dangerous for my fingers...and very very frightening. But I tried pulling on the rode from below while she worked th switch, and I tried backing the boat down, but by this point the anchor was just dragging or possible not touching bottom at all, so it didn't do any good.

Anyway, I was SO FRUSTRATED after this, and now I read your more detailed description and explanation, and I'm thinking "This guy's a genius! I want all-chain rode!"

Seriously, though, one of the main problems on a CD-22, especially, is that there isn't enough "fall" below the windlass. Rope rode needs a certain length to be unsupported beneath the windlass to provide a bit of pull to keep the slack out. Three feet is nice, and on a lot of larger boats, it's no trouble to have the rode drop three feet before its weight starts to be taken by the pile of rode beneath it. On my boat it's about 12 inches! The rope is essentially weightless the moment it comes below the deck.

Anyway, now I'm thinking about 100' of chain. I almost never feed more than 100' of rode, and if I do, I'll be able to reverse down on it to provide the tension needed to bring the rope-chain splice inside. Good idea! Glad somebody thought of it!

[Sea Wolf]

Thanks for the responses, guys.

Roger-

I can understand the need to have a Free Fall windlass to anchor in exact spots like when fishing wrecks, etc.

Would a heavy all-chain rode help you anchor in a specific spot since the chain hangs STRAIGHT DOWN until it contacts the seabed and then only requires a minimum scope, if the anchor was suitably designed for a quick hook up, like a graphel? (Guess I'm just an all-chain salesman, after all!)

Paul K-

Thanks for the idea! Some kind of idler wheel / belt tensioner / anti-slack-device or flexible clutch is clearly needed somewhere in the system. The problem seems to be that there's just not enough space available to incorporate all the necessary components in the small space available on recreational boats.

Tim-

You're exactly right! What a paradox.

Install a windlass so you don't have to go up on the foredeck in dangerous conditions, then find you have a jam and have to go up there anyway and deal with the equivalent of an electric starting motor wrapped around by a belt of crocodile teeth leading down the throat of a meat grinder. That's the way Lewmar advertises it, right?

Glad you still have your hands! Makes me think twice about doing anything like that.

Sometimes when my windlass would slip, one of us would go forward to put the side of their shoe down against the Fleming to provide more contact pressure to stop the slipping on the rope, but I was always somewhat afraid of the process, considering the possible dangers.

I made up a wired remote control to pass through the forward hatch to be able to operate the winch on the foredeck myself when alone and facing a windlass jam, but have always thought it to be very dangerous to use, considering one could accidently hit one of the buttons while working on the fouled rode.

You're also right about the requirement for having enough "fall' for the rode to develop the weight necessary to pull the tail of the incoming rode tightly enough to take it to the bottom of the locker. Chain requires less of this height difference because it's much heavier for it's length.


Another thought:


Have you folks ever seen pictures of moderate sized fishing boats in Alaska with drum windlasses on their decks where the rope and chain are stored on the drum itself, thus organizing the storage and providing the drive mechanism at the same time? They have these on boats not much bigger than our C-Dorys. It's starting to look like an alternative worth looking into, at least for some applications.

If you like problems without easy answers, this must be Paradise: anchors, rodes, and windlasses. Just when you thought you had it all figured out .......

Joe.