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Ranger Tug 21ec - My Observation!
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BrentB



Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 4419
City/Region: Greenwood
State or Province: IN
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IdleUp wrote:
Brent wrote:
great

add a penny to the tip jar


Will do . . .

While the factory told me they only build boats as they are ordered - I googled it and found quite a few for sale on the Internet.

Thanks again!


good luck!

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Frob



Joined: 19 Aug 2008
Posts: 21
City/Region: Hudson River
State or Province: NY
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: R-21 EC Tug
Vessel Name: Barnacle
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That Acadia 21 can top out at 17 knots with a 75 horse , thats impressive.
I would sell my ranger in a heart beat and buy a new one if they offered engine upgrades.
still luv ny 21 even though she can't get out of her own way , thats my biggest drawback about the boat.

Last year we had to loose 4 days waiting in Kingston Canada because we didn't want to chance beating bad weather .
Two other boats we were with made the 50 mile crossing in about 2 hrs. across the lake . It would have taken us 7 or 8 to get to Oswego ... so we waited it out.
There are times when some extra speed would be nice, thats for sure . AND THATS A FACT, like it or not.

We have logged about 300 miles in our tug so far, and made adjustments and changes to the boat to better suite us . But
you just can't easily get around the slow speed when you need more.

Yanmar is not the only compact diesel out there, and Ranger could easily fit a higher horse power in the boat, it would handle it just fine.( trust me I do not need to read the nature of boats, or a phd to make that claim )
I HAVE TO AGREE WITH IDLEUP on that note, stirring the pot is a good thing sometimes if change is made for the better.
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Shaun



Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 9
City/Region: Dana Point
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: R-21 EC Tug
Vessel Name: RUB "N" TUG
Photos: RUB "N" TUG
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am very hesitant to agree with the larger motor Idea even though yes a little more speed would nice sometimes. In a 4 to 6 foot following sea I have had my 21 over ten knots and I can tell you that a full keel semi-displacement boat, even with the hard reverse chin across the back, does not handle well at all. Those types of speeds are a welcome sight for a few seconds but would become a major task to control for long periods of time. The keel has a tendency to make the boat broach. The only way around this is the total redesign of the hull. I can't see the ranger 21ec tracking well at all in hard turn. The larger "trawler" type boats that can obtain these plaining speeds will not have a keel that runs from tip to tail.
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Frob



Joined: 19 Aug 2008
Posts: 21
City/Region: Hudson River
State or Province: NY
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: R-21 EC Tug
Vessel Name: Barnacle
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaun,
If you were broaching ,more speed would help in following seas, you could stay ahead of the waves trying to spin you around.

Or more power to stay on the wave backs better .

I have not been in anything as big as 6 foot seas , can you describe how she handled in that type of big water , head on I have hit some huge wakes from big boats to see how well she can take it .

And I am quite impressed how well she takes big wakes
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Shaun



Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 9
City/Region: Dana Point
State or Province: CA
C-Dory Year: 2006
C-Dory Model: R-21 EC Tug
Vessel Name: RUB "N" TUG
Photos: RUB "N" TUG
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frob,
The seas that I am referring to where not wind chop, but a ground swell and I was running directly with it. The boat wants to broach because the hard chine pushes the bow down allowing the keel to dig in. I discovered this because when the boat gets over 9 knots or so there is a little jet of water that shoots up from the bow under the anchor. If you took the keel out of the equation the added power would help ride the back of a wave or stray in the trough in a following sea condition. The bottom line is that this boat has a belly not a flat surface to plain on. The ranger handles surprisingly well in the open ocean during less than optimal conditions. just close your windows, batten down the hatches and turn just slightly off from head on and she will kind of walk through heavy wind chop. She will pound, however, if you get to close to the swell direction and the prop will cavitate for just an instant but then she calms right down. The trick to a following sea is to slow down. You will find a sweet spot that is just slow enough for the waves to pass under the boat with out allowing her to catch the wave itself. I like the following sea because with less power (and fuel) you go faster.
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denny48



Joined: 07 Aug 2005
Posts: 37
City/Region: Peoria
State or Province: AZ
C-Dory Year: 2008
C-Dory Model: R-21 EC Tug
Vessel Name: Tugger
Photos: Tugger
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:55 pm    Post subject: Enjoying every minute! Reply with quote

We haven't regretted our purchase for a second. This seaworthy little piece of heaven is blissful serenity on the water. Our boat is fawned over and admired by just about everyone. We're at the age (and wisdom) where speed is the LAST of our considerations. Safety, security and economy. We burn less fuel in a day than most boats burn in an hour and we get to enjoy every bit of the scenery. If you want to go fast, buy a Cigarette. I'll look for you in the classifieds. Wink
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Frob



Joined: 19 Aug 2008
Posts: 21
City/Region: Hudson River
State or Province: NY
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: R-21 EC Tug
Vessel Name: Barnacle
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaun and others,
Thank you for the details about the big water, we have yet dared to venture into the atlantic .
Next year we are thinking about taking the tug to a friends house in belmar N J by water and hearing from the folks who head off shore in the tugs is helping to shed the fear of getting caught out , if the weather turns bad.

I have taken the tug to block island ,RI and been in some rough chop going through long island sound.
We stayed nice and dry in the cabin as the white caps sprayed the pilot house for hours on one return trip.

Denny , I know what you mean about people liking the tug , and showing interest in it. We like the look of tugger and red is our favorite color, are tug is blue we purchased it as a demo and saved a few dollars but had no choice in the color but we still like it.
Funny how you mentioned cigarette, because one of the other boats we proudly own is a 05 -42 ft, fountain . Lets not compare apples to oranges here. I can say... the ranger gets more attention where ever we go.

BTW - I had made a mistake in a previous post ...I meant we have put 360 hours on the motor (i checked yesterday) not miles.
Have not had any problems in that time as we have read about here and the water pump thread had me thinking a new impeller would would be a good thing to have aboard as a spare. Mine still looks good as new so far.

We enjoyed the photo albums and as soon as I can figure out how to post pictures we will .

This is a great site and we are glad we heard about it...... later gang:)
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Westfield 11



Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 122
City/Region: Woodland Hills
State or Province: CA
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drjohn71a wrote:
Idle Up,

Sure, you can OCCASIONALLY run a Mainship at that slow speed, but you cannot limit the operation of the larger engine to that low rpm without shortening it's life. It is designed to operate for long periods in the higher rpm range. It is DESIGNED, powered, propped, shaped, etc., for a different purpose.

John


Folks, I beg to differ on this point. Your statement is correct when speaking of the old fashioned diesels of the past. However the new computer controlled common rail diesels do not have those issues. Check out the posts over at Boatdiesel.com and you will find that one can run the new engines at idle forever with no adverse problems, something that has been proven in commercial usage.

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Not a C-Dory owner but a lover of the forum and the spirit of adventure found here. This is the best small boat cruising resource I have found to date. The travelogues are very inspirational and a great reminder of why we go down to the sea in ships (or small boats).
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Frob



Joined: 19 Aug 2008
Posts: 21
City/Region: Hudson River
State or Province: NY
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: R-21 EC Tug
Vessel Name: Barnacle
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed and proven Westfield11,
ITSY , tried to make that argument before with facts to back it up. I miss his posts , most were real world and not book theory.
I am glad we found this site however good it may be and the just be nice motto , it seems the majority of posters have thier prejudiced opinions against any thing negative about thier boats even if it is true what is being said.
Aside from a few with a nasty little click here , all in all a great site
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JamesTXSD



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 7444
City/Region: from island boy to desert dweller
State or Province: AZ
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: "Wild Blue" (sold 9/14)
Photos: Wild Blue
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Frob and welcome aboard,

This place is one of the friendliest on the internet. One of the best things about this forum is the information and support you'll get. We enjoy these boats and have no problem pointing out their strengths and weaknesses.

It seems to me that Itsy and IdleUp both came here with the intent of pointing out why the R-21 didn't work for them. There are those that love 'em and those that don't, but if one does even a little bit of homework, they will know what these boats are capable of... and all the whining and griping isn't going to change the hull shape, cabin space, or performance.

If you noticed "the majority of posters" here being "negative", it wasn't because of someone pointing out something true about the boat... it was in response to the way these two guys came across.

I hope you'll take the time to look through the wealth of archives here and see that we discuss ALL aspects of our boats, good and bad. We've given the factory kudos and jeers when warranted. We come from all different places and boat usage, but the thing we share is the passion for these boats. The Rangers were welcomed here when C-Dory and Ranger worked together marketing the R-25 (no longer happening), and I think a lot of us C-Dory folks still enjoy the tug posts. What you might consider a clique is a bunch of good folks who have been around long enough and know and share what they've learned. When we started looking around for our boat, this place could not have been more welcoming. You can participate as much or as little as you want; I've had the opportunity to meet a lot of the participants here in person. What a great bunch of people!

"Click"? No, everyone here gets to sit with the cool kids as long as they play by the one and only rule. Wink

Best wishes,
Jim B.

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CD-25 "Wild Blue" (sold August 2014)
http://captnjim.blogspot.com/

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thataway



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 20779
City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I certainly would second what Jim said. Frankly the vast majority of us don't have a dog in the speed of the Tug issue. (We own C dories, although many of us have been aboard the tugs and enjoy them). We just point out what the facts based on our knowledge and theory are. Many of the posters here have far more real world knowledge than you might suspect. There are boat builders, boat dealers, full time watermen, surveyors, professional boat skippers etc; people with thousands of hours and hundreds of thousands of miles on the water--all come in with an unbiased view hoping to help others enjoy the boating experience.

There are several C Brat gatherings coming up in the next few weeks. One is the Gulf Coast Gathering. We have had boaters from New York come down--it is still warm on the Gulf Coast in mid October. Apalachicola is a wonderful little town with some of the world's best Oysters--and a very friendly group of C Brats! October 17th thru 19th is the date. The North Carolina gathering is next weekend--not too late for that. If you cannot bring your boat, there are other accomidations available. It is a fantistic group of people--and I have not observed any clic either--I have had the pleasure of meeting an additional about 50 or so additional members this last summer, in the Delta Extravaganzia and the Anacortes Cruise, as well in various parts of British Columbia.

Come on down and enjoy some southern hospitality and meet some of the group.

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Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL
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Frob



Joined: 19 Aug 2008
Posts: 21
City/Region: Hudson River
State or Province: NY
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: R-21 EC Tug
Vessel Name: Barnacle
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your welcome Jim and Joan,
Glad to be aboard here and looking forward to sharing information with all the c brats.
And you are right about catching up on the past posts , a few things we wanted to post about were found in old posts.
I will enjoy catching up with old threads before I put my foot in my mouth.

Take it easy all, and enjoy whats left of the season , for us in the north east the days are getting shorter and the boating season is starting to shorten quickly also .
Frob
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drjohn71a



Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 1820
City/Region: Wichita
State or Province: KS
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: Tom-a-Hawk
Photos: Tom-a-Hawk
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Westfield and Frob,

I beg to differ with your posturing my post about avoiding prolonged idling of diesel engines as a clickish ploy to defend the Ranger 21 EC.

I do not own a 21 EC and have never ridden in one.

I do own a couple of fairly new diesel trucks, tractors and one diesel motorhome, ALL of which contain warnings in the owner's manual to avoid prolonge idling.

If you two know of new info on that line, it is certainly appreciated and I hope you will inform Cummins, Ford, and John Deere about the error of their ways.

However, for you to couch my simple sharing of my experience with diesels as being a blind defense of an inferior boat design is really stretching a pontless point.

If the 21 EC does not fit your needs, if you don't like the 21 EC , don't buy it, but give us a break. We all now know what you like and do not like.

Maybe you can go to the Harley Owner's site and bad mouth any model of bike Harley makes that does not fit your needs.

John
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Frob



Joined: 19 Aug 2008
Posts: 21
City/Region: Hudson River
State or Province: NY
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: R-21 EC Tug
Vessel Name: Barnacle
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drjohn71a, Whew....feel better now?
We do own a ranger tug as well as another diesel powered boat with over 2000 hrs on it mostly chugging along, runs great but that doesn't prove anything either.

My reply was not to start a fued and I am having a hard time trying to actually understand your reply no was talking about the design of the boat when talking about the engine or rpm while running.

Also if you would like me to follow your lead as if your opinion proves anything by how many diesels you own, please pm me as we own one of the largest pile driving companys on the east coast and it would take me hours to list all the diesels we own.

As far as the manufactures you listed I can name quite a few more that we work VERY closely with and have many mechanics whom have worked for, taught ,engineered, and retired from a few of the companys you mentioned and then some,currently in our employment .

I would be glad to have a few of them explain it to you or perhaps have them give you a tour of one of the oil analyesis labs , I will stop here so I do not bore everyone .

Please let us know if we can be of assistance to better help you to understand and read between the lines of your diesel owners manual....Jon
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drjohn71a



Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 1820
City/Region: Wichita
State or Province: KS
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: Tom-a-Hawk
Photos: Tom-a-Hawk
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frob,

I am anchored out on my boat this weekend, and using laptop power to scan posts and post back. I may have missed the exact focus of the recent posts on this thread, BUT the basis of my upset is that there are many differing designs of boats, trucks, motorcycles, etc., and we each choose the one that best fits our needs and want to be happy with that. It is entirely understandable that some ppl do not like the performance of the 21 EC, and if they want to go on an open, generic site to pound home their unhappiness, that is fine. However, it is not polite to go to an owner's group site and launch waves of relentless criticism on those ppl's choices.

As for diesels, I feel I have to respect the owner's manuals of the diesel equipment I own and operate. Perhaps you are such a diesel expert that you can override the manufacturers' instructions, or perhaps you own diesels which can operate indefinitely at idle without negative repercussions. I was upset that, after my note of my small experience with diesels, the remark was posted containing something about blind defense of an inferior design or such.


Example of how this thread may be seen by others, as posted on the Schwinn MoPed owner's group site:

SCHWINN MOPED - MY OPINION!!!!

This weekend I was ready to sign the papers on a new Schwinn Moped and took one out on a test drive. I was AMAZED to discover that the moped would not go over 30 mph!!! What kind of engineering is that?
On top of that, there is not enough room for my cooler, television, and camping gear. Also, with my wife and I both aboard, the moped won't even go it's advertised 30 mph speed.

I think the engineers should have known better than to put such a small motor on that moped. I think they should have put a 75 hp motor on it so we could drive it faster. Also, an extra wheel or two to make it wider would leave more room for my, my passenger, and cargo.

I have owned hundreds of motorcycles, so I know the best design and operation parameters of ALL motorcycles, and anyone who does not agree with me simply does not have even normal mental abilities.

I think owners would be best served with a 200 horsepower engine on these mopeds. You could still drive them at 30mph at idle indefinitely without any harm, nor waste in production/use materials.

Anybody who posts that their owners' manuals warn to avoid prolonged operation at idle speeds are idiots because I know everything and they need to re-write their owners manuals.

Also, I cannot understand how anybody could take offense to my sharing of my irrefutable, all-knowing, ultimate expertitious judgement on how all you lower beings should live their life.

Anonymous...
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