Anchor Rode Jumps off Gypsy

[jlastofka]

I have the Lewmar Pro-series winch (non-free fall, last year's model) and a 22 lb Delta anchor and the Lewmar tilting bow roller setup. It works hands-off every time, both up and down. I also have 30' of 1/4" chain and 250' of 1/2" three strand nylon. It feeds reliably through the windlass practically every time, and piles nicely in the CD22 locker. A couple times I've had to back up a foot to feed the rope/chain splice a second time on the way up. Really, only a couple times, and that was when it was new. I think the line's more supple now, or the splice is more set, or whatever.

I don't think the free fall feature is needed at all. If you have a depth finder, you just pay out most of what you need to get near the bottom as you're doing your final approach to your chosen drop spot. Then, when it's time, you power out the last length while slowly drifting backward. Keep this slow backward drift going while the line pays out and it won't jump off the bow roller or foul the gypsy. (If you blindly pay out too much rope while not backing down, you can make the rope pile up and foul.)

If you have to re-anchor, don't winch all the line in. Just enough to get off the bottom for repositioning.

I know everyone's different, but the above is working reliably for me. I figure I'm good to 50' depth in non-storm conditions at about 5:1 scope and I'll bring along another length of chain and rode to be added if I plan to go somewhere deeper.

The anchor, roller and winch are are made by Lewmar and they seem to have the combination worked out nicely, at least for me.

I thought about all chain, but it's a lot of weight, and with only 30' of chain, I can always have some rope paid out as a shock absorber. If I had all chain, I'd want to go to the bow most every time and rig a length of shock absorbing nylon line after the anchor's set and the chain is paid out.

In the future, I'd like to try maybe 350 feet of the 8 plait rope and 50 feet of chain. I think the added suppleness of the 8 plait would let that combination fit in the CD22 locker. Then I'd be good to about 80 feet of water. There are places here in SoCal around Catalina and the other Channel Islands where I've wanted to anchor in 100' water and I haven't had the equipment before. I think if I bring the extra chain and line and tie it on when needed I can probably do it. It would mean going to the bow and doing some of the process by hand, but that would only be once in a while.

I've used Fortress anchors and they've set and held well, but we usually get a wind reversal during the night around here and that means the chain will swing around and make the anchor re-set in the other direction. Anchors with bars sticking out the sides can have a way of fouling the chain while doing that sometimes and then they'll drag and maybe re-set or not. The Delta, and others without the protruding rods, don't have that problem, and I feel safer this way. I've also had the Fortress anchor rod foul the chain when the anchor/chain was dropped to the bottom too quickly without backing down in the process. It has to be hauled all the way up and unfouled by hand when that happens. You really need to be backing down slowly and lowering the anchor slowly as it's trying to hook up if you want it to happen reliably. Another reason not to free-fall.

There's a lot of options out there. I'm just describing what's working well for me. For the people having feeding problems with the gypsy, how about replacing the lightly spring loaded finger with a firmly spring loaded roller? You could really clamp the line in that way. Also, someone mentioned using WD-40 as a lubricant on the arm. WD-40 is good for drying things and for helping to free them up, but it's not really an oil. You want to put some real oil on the parts for longer lasting lubrication. The parts will work better and last longer.

[RichardW]

I have had a few more thoughts triggered by the excellent information and analyses in this thread.

To establish uniform test conditions
-Starting at the bow roller, my setup is: A 14# Delta anchor, an articulated bow roller which launches everytime, a Windline AR-4 fairlead placed to give about 150 + degree of wrap on the gypsy, Lewmar 1/2", 3 strand rope with 15' of chain for the rode. I soaked the rope in fresh water before first use and it seemed to work best when 1st deployed. I use tie wraps to mark the rode so that I can use the sonar to gauge distance to the bottom when launched and scope needed.

I use freefall most of the time and try to reverse the gypsy just prior to having the anchor contact the bottom in order to maintain some tension. Using power down does not seem to help. I will let out rode and tighten while slowly backing down to place tension on the rode as much as practical. The anchor launches reliably and I may or not get a jam as the rode is let out. I may or may not get a jam as I wind it in (again, trying to maintain tension). I would say that it jams ~85% of the time: UNACCEPTABLE.

My strategy to hopefully correct this design debacle:

1. Disassemble the clutch drum and find a way to eliminate the unnecessary 3/8" gap left by the clutch after free spooling so that the finger can maintain pressure. I may experiment with finger pressure also.

2. Replace the poorly designed finger with a spring loaded roller to keep the rope and chain captured on the gypsy teeth.

3. Replace the 200' rope / 15' chain rode with 8 plait, 250', 20' chain.

4. Modify the AR-4 roller to add a friction clutch with adjustable tension so that the rode has tension on launch and retrieve. I would need follower ( spring loaded roller) to keep the rode in contact with the AR-4 roller. Now Joe - don't try to beat me to the patent office on this one!
5. Replace the rode with 100' of chain and 150' of rope as Joe did.

AND IF ALL THIS FAILS,

6. Give the Lewmar ProFish 700 a C4 headache and send the pieces back to the CEO of Lewmar in a box with a guided missile nastygram.

BTW- does anyone know the pros and cons of the Lewmar 8 plait rode vs the Yale cordage equivalent?

I love a design challenge..........

[thataway]

I am wondering why I have not had this problem? Perhaps the line I am using? Not sure.

But there are problems with all chain, as well as the weight--which is not huge with the 1/4" HT. (We did carry 160 to 200 feet of chain in our long distance cruising boats, but didn't consider this to be "all chain". It was backed by 400 feet of rope rode. ) The other problem with chain is that it will "toss", that is as you go thru rough water, the pile of chain spills over and becomes inverted. The only way to avoid that is to have a narrow chain locker--impossiable on the C Dory.

One other hint, for those who want to go to more chain. Use one of the "quick" links, which is two half links attatched by peening over the two nipples. Put the two links together with JB weld, before you peen over the heads. This will make the link as strong as the HT chain--and it should still go thru the windlass with no problem.

[helm]

We have a lewmar v700 windlass and lewmar rode and have no slippage problems. Lewmar has an interesting discussion about anchor rode choices here http://en.lewmar.com/products/index.aspx?lang=1&page_id=414

[Edward Thieme]

Just checked the site and was amazed with all the responses. I really appreciate it. After reading about all the problems I guess I should be happy I only have a problem deploying the anchor, not retrieving it too.

I thought of trying to add tension on the finger with some bungee cord but will have to wait for the snow to stop.

Again thank you for all your replies.

Ed on "Rambler"

[Doryman]

[Sea Wolf]

[jlastofka]

One thought I have for the people who are having winch line feeding problems is that the infomative page at the Lewmar site (linked by someone else a few messages back in this thread) talks about variability in some manufacturers' line sizes. If the 1/2" line is a little smaller than Lewmar's it can cause feeding problems.

I'm not sure where my 1/2" line came from, but it feeds very reliably, and the splice that I made by following pictorial instructions feeds reliably, too.

It's possible that comparing your rode diameter carefully with some other lines may lead you to a rode that feeds better.

I'd love to try some of the 8 plait line to maybe make room for even more rode in my locker, but my setup's working well now, so it's hard to justify spending a bunch of money on that.

Regarding the 'tossing', I think Bob meant that the top of the pile of chain will slide over to the side and drop below some of the chain that was piled under it, and then some of that remainder can slide over and end up above the chain that was previously on top. That might lead to a feeding problem later, but not necessarily. The chain feeds out fairly slowly (not with a free-fall system, I guess) and it's pretty good about sliding past itself on the way. I'll bet he didn't mean to portray the entire pile of chain jumping up in the air and then landing completely inverted, as some might interpret from the wording.

[Sea Wolf]

Jeff-

To use one of Bob's favorite words (probably that of a physician carefully wording a tentative diagnosis,)I "suspect" that you're right about the "tossing" and "inverting", and I know there was some intentional hyperbole in the way I indirectly quoted his statement to reflect my own disbelief that it could easily happen!

I really don't think there's too much of a likelyhood that the chain would foul itself, but I suppose it's a possibility. The gypsy lifts it firmly and slowly on the powered down pay out, and the chain seems to slide past itself easily. But Bob probably has many, many times the cruising experience that I have, so I'll definitely honor his opinion on the matter.

I's like very much myself to get a hold of some of that 8-plait to see how it feels, but i'm limited to a single West Marine store here and all their stores handle is New England Ropes, whereas the 8-plait is a Lewmar product.

Joe.

[thataway]

Jlastofka describes what I have experience with the chain well. I have been in conditions in the C Dory where this could have happened--but generally shorter peroids of time. Chain does tend to pile up--rope tends to flake or spiral--and does not exibit these tangles. It may not be a problem with the lighter 1/4" HT chain, but it is definately a problem with both 5/16 and 3/8" HT chain. We have rebuilt chain lockers to avoid it.

I have used both 8 and 12 plait line in Anchor rodes. It is great on the hands and to work with--but the devil to splice. You would have to do a weave in the chain type of splice after re-sizing it to 4 strands. Although there are conventional splices with 8 and 12 strand plaits, I have ended up oversewing the splice to be sure I had enough strenght.

I have not used these in a combination rope chain gypsy--but they make good anchor rodes, but with less stress and elasticity than 3 strand.

Mention of the 8 plait being less likely to jam under heavy load--I avoid putting heavy load on the combination rope chain gypsies. If you have enough chain, that it will reach the bottom where you usually anchor, then there should not be much strain as the windlass takes up the slack.

[Papillon]

I believe it was Joe that mentioned a drum method of Anchor Wench..winch....oh well you know what I mean.

My friend just added such a system to his 28 Proline after going through several different windlass installs that didn't get the job done. Being a diver, he wants to make sure the boat is still there when he returns to the surface.

He bought a product called E-Z Anchor Puller and swears even at the cost, he would have saved money if he had only gone this route in the first place. I think the rig would still be over kill on a 22 footer, but on that new Venture 29...on know the "one" they built. I am sure it would fit it great.


I am still doing fine with my $300.00 Breeze model.

My only problem with it was finding the right size and type of rode and I used the chain splice that Joe has in his photo album and goes down and comes up with no kinks, jumps or bumps along the way. Thanks Joe.

[RichardW]

I finally had a chance to analyze my windlass problems and discovered that I had two issues. I decided to replace the 3 strand Lewmar rode with 8 plait due to the shallow anchor locker and relatively stiff rode. As I studied the new rode going on, I noticed excessive runout in the gypsy which was contributing to the problem of the rope getting jammed. Upon further examination, I found that the screws that hold the stripper finger against the gypsy were both loose enough to require at least 1/2 turn to tighten them. This substantially reduced the play in the gypsy.

I tested the setup today and so far, it works perfectly. I will update any problems after I have used it for a while. I honestly believe that both fixes were required.

[flrockytop]

[quote="RichardW"]I...., I found that the screws that hold the stripper finger against the gypsy were both loose enough to require at least 1/2 turn to tighten them. This substantially reduced the play in the gypsy.

[/quote

Hi Richard. I am just now getting back to trying to solve the problem on my boat. Is the stripper finger that you are talking about Item #4 (Stripper Arm) as per Parts list and the loose screws Item #10? There are two Item#10 screws. The forward one of mine is missing. Upon closer look it appears to be broken off.

It took some effort but I finally found a phone number for Lewmar USA. It is 1-800-362-7212. I talked to Josh ( I think that was his name.) He was of no help. He in essence said that the problem of the line jumping out of the gypsy is all operator error. He said you cannot just hit the down switch and leave it at that because what we are experiencing will happen (the line will jump out of the gypsy). He said "you have to me mindful of what is going on." I interpreted that to mean all you had to do is look at the line and winch and you will have no problems. He said no you have to be "mindful" of what is going on but could give no other clue as to how to be "mindful"

I also told him that I am not the only person that is having this problem. His answer was "well I'd have to talk to these other people." I got the feeling that he thinks that no one one else is having this problem or either he gets ten calls a day about it and is tired of talking about it.

Anyway I would request that those that are having a problem give him a call. 1-800-362-7212

[RichardW]

Hello Frockytop,
I talked to Lewmar a year ago and also concluded that they would be little to no help. If you will take a look at my project album here http://www.c-brats.com/modules.php?set_albumName=album380&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php&page=2 you will see a schematic of my newly designed / installed rode counter. On that schematic, I have a pointer to one of the two screws that hold the stripper bracket. I changed the rode to 8 plait nylon as well as tightening these screws.
Pls let me know what you find.

Richard

[Edward Thieme]

Well I finally went to work on the rode jumping out of the gypsy problem. Standing on a ladder, the boat is on the trailer, I found that the rope isn't just lifting the spring loaded guide as I thought. What is happening is as the rope comes up from below and shifts side to side and if it is stiff and has a small bend it hits the edge of the gypsy not the center groove and goes over the edge of the gypsy and as the gypsy turns with the rope over the edge it lifts the spring loaded guide bar.

By holding a bar, I used a 1/2 in. socket drive extension, just blow the gypsy, fore and aft to act as a guide, I found the problem could be eliminated.

I made an adjustable guide to mount just below the gypsy to keep the rope in line with the center of the gypsy. I have pictures but don't know how to submit them.

Ed on "Rambler"