Windlass Selection

[cbadmin]

From: Mike (Original Message) Sent: 11/25/2002 10:50 PM
If you have a windlass on your C-Dory, what brand and model is it, and what factors led you to select that particular one? Have you had any problems with it, and would you replace it in kind if needed?

If you have a windlass in your future, what questions do you have, and what kind of general information would help you decide on the one to buy?

From: Mike Sent: 11/25/2002 11:08 PM
I put a Simpson Lawrence Horizon 600G on the TyBoo this year. The primary reason for choosing that brand was name and reputation.

I wanted the above deck horizontal arrangement for simplicity of installation and maintenance. The model 400G is adequate in size and power for the 22' CD, and costs less than the 600G, but it comes with a composite gypsy. The 600G was chosen because it has a metal gypsy, its footprint and weight is only slightly larger, and I felt that being somewhat more powerful than needed would extend its life.

It has been in use for most of this season, and has never missed a lick. The installation was easy, including the wiring and controls. It works very well. I power the boat toward the anchor when retrieving to relieve the windlass strain if there is wind or current working against me. However, the 600 pounds of pull is more than adequate to move the hull across the water if I chose to let the windlass do all the pulling.

I was able to get as good a price for the windlass/roller/rode combination from a local supplier as I could have found online. The SL Horizon is not the cheapest, but you could spend a great deal more. If somebody swiped the thing off the bow, I would replace it with another just like it.

It sure makes sturgeon fishing more fun.

Mike

From: kenonBlue-C Sent: 11/26/2002 6:30 AM
I have the Powerwinch model 425 sportfisherman. I purchased this model primarilary due to the price and that it free falls instead powering down. "Upon further review", power down would be nice to have for positioning the boat once you have the anchor down. It is a bit bigger than the Horizion windlass and I had to chop off a bit of the forward cleat to make room for it. I'd buy another one if I was doing it again, seems to plenty enough umph, metal gypsy and generally well constructed.

From: Mike Sent: 11/26/2002 5:28 PM
B~C -

Hey, I thought you said you had to hold the down button for five seconds to get it to free fall? Shoot, that's a long time, you should be able back the boat away from the anchor good enough with 4 1/2 second shots. The free fall feature like yours is one thing I really wish I had. Especially for anchoring in the deep winter sturgy holes.

You do have to get you one of those pivoting bow rollers. It is SL Model KABR21N, and you can see one here. Like I said on our other site, I paid $137.50 for it at Englund Marine in Astoria, so keep that in mind when you shop.

Mike

From: Fishtales Sent: 12/5/2002 8:04 PM
I have a Simpson Horizon 600G with 40' of 1/4" chain and 200' of 1/2" rode. Will be installing a 2BR anchor roller this winter, so the Bruce anchor will self launch.

Roger

From: Sea Wolf Sent: 12/16/2002 8:54 PM

Mike- I'll answer the windlass question first here, then transfer it to the C-Tech site when you approve my membership there.
I really looked long and hard at all the windlass choices before I choose the Aires Quick 500. Simpson Lawrence has a very well established reputation in the US, having been around since the turn of the century (100 years!) But there are a lot of other choices around, including the American made PowerWinch, Aires Quick and Loftrans from Italy, Austrailian brands, and several others (Simpson Lawrence is from Scotland).
You can buy all of thse different Winches from various sources on e-bay, often for a lot less than their advertised prices, often from a very reputable company that is willing to put them up to bid for a lot less than their catalogue price, and then honor the sale with a full warranty, but it varies from vendor to vendor. There are also used ones for sale, usually "as is".
I bought the Quick Aires 500 because it:
1.) Was manufactured with beautiful precision and craftsmanship-as good as any other, in my opinion.
2.) Had a 500 watt motor, as opposed to the Horizon 600's 400 watt and the Sprint 600's 250 watt motors.
3.) Came with a free-fall handle included (the H-600 handle is $200).
4. I wanted a vertical format windlass with the motor concealed below deck, and the A-Q 500's motor is arranged horizontally below deck, can be mounted in any of four positions (+ it has a worm drive gear box instead of spur gears). This leaves more room for the rode and sleeping in the locker and v-berth area.
5. Unlike the Sprint 600, it has a separate low amperage up/down switch, solenoid, and curcuit breaker components (like the Horizon 600 and most others).
6. The vendor, Marisafe, Inc. would give it a full warranty.
7. They would sell it to me for $409 + $25 shipping= $434 complete (no tax from Florida).
It was very easy to install. Four 3/8" holes for the studs, one large 2" hole for the drive shaft assembly, and two 1-1/4" holes rounded together for the chain/rode passage. I used a hole saw drill bit for the larger holes, of course. Be sure to seal the balsa core off properly.
I bought the pivoting Simpson Lawrence pivoting anchor roller from the West Marine Bargain Store in Oakland for $100 plus tax, as well as a Fortress FX-16 for $122 + tax. I chose to get the West Marine combo 15 ft of 1/4" High test chain with 135 feet of 1/2" three strand twisted anchor rope rather than all chain because of the weight. This combo just fits in the locker to the top of the rim. (Did you read about the guy who was told he needed 1200 feet of rode to anchor in Prince William Sound?)
I was going to use all chain, but after reading all the various discussions about keeping the bow light and then trying to take out 100 feet of chain from the barrel at West Marine and imagining puting it in the bow of the boat, I changed my mind. Also, I've raced small dinghy sailboats for over 30 years and putting weight in the bow of a boat (or the stern, or anywhere, for that matter) doesn't come easy.
I'm very happy with the resulting set up. It cost me about $860 + wiring and connectors or about $925(not including tax). With the S-L Sprint 600 and all of the components bought straight out at West Marine, the cost would have been $1650 + tax =$1785. Not that the money's everything, but on an item this costly, it's worth the effort to save the difference and soften the impact on the 2nd Mate at home!
I had a PowerWinch 24 windlass mounted to the side at the bow that I took off to install this windlass. I actually like the little 24 (200 lbs of lift and only 15 amps of power draw instead of 60-80 amps, momemtarily) better for fishing in quiet water coves in lakes, but couldn't see it doing the job as well in heavy water in the delta rivers down here. I may mount it on the stern with the 15 lb navy or river anchor on it to help stabilize the boat in current/wind situations, but I know that a drogue chute would often be required instead or be better.
Hope this answers some of your questions.Let me know if you have more. Thanks! Joe.

From: Redƒox Sent: 12/18/2002 9:25 AM
Wow Joe, excellent and thanks, when I get more time soon, I will re-read all that, lots of stuff packed in that post.

I have the Prince William Sound cruising guide, written by this couple that gave tours in the Sound for years. They recomend for a sail boat- 600 ft of rode. Thats what I use incase I have to anchore in 100 ft of water in a blow. It's come in handy for anchoring in 200- 400 ft for holding possition over a halibut hole. I still am not convinced that I need a windlass though. I think if I did more river travel I certainly would want one. It's an auto pilot that's next on my list of trickery!
Greg

From: Sea Wolf Sent: 12/18/2002 2:47 PM
Greg- Yes, I know it can be deep just a ways off shore up in the Inside Passage and the rest of the Alaska area due to the deep troughs left over from the glaciers during the ice ages that left the long, deep passages, sounds, and bays, you guys cruise in today. I'm just having trouble imagining how to carry that much rode around on a boat the size of a CD-22! You must have to down-size the rope portion of the rode from 1/2" to 3/8 or so to get anything that would be managable and storable (?). When we were in Ketchikan this summer, they told us it was 1800 feet deep one quarter mile off the wharf which was (understandablly) horizontal to the shoreline and extended only about 100 feet out. Those of us down here in California, at least, aren't used to the vast scale of the landscape and seas of the Alaskan coast. Maybe some day soon some of us can bring our C-D's up there overland and cruise some of the best parts of the Alaskan waters. Joe

From: 2nd Byte Sent: 12/18/2002 8:35 PM
Hi Joe, the "italian stallion" windlass looks like a pretty nice unit. I have considered a windlass more than once and it was particularly interesting to see this one. Wasn't familiar with it, but I went to the MariSafe site and it sure has a lot of nice features. My only problem is the amount of 1/2" rode I would have to carry and the space that would entail. I like Greg, pack 600' of rode (3/8" rin my case) and figure that is about the minimum for my use. I use the buoy/ring and boat power to pull my anchor and it works pretty slick. Problem arises when I have to get up on the bow when the water is lumpy. I really like the idea of the windlass and staying off the bow but 600' of 1/2'" would take up a lot of space. I'm curious as to how much 1/2" rode would be practical in the rode locker of a CD, before a person would have to red-disgn a larger locker.

Nice choice Joe and thanks for the update

Mark

From: Sea Wolf Sent: 12/19/2002 11:12 AM
Mark-I can see your point! The 15' of 1/4" chain and 135' of 1/2" line just fills the locker on my boat up nicely to the top. extending the locker up higher towards the cabin top would allow another 50 feet or so. Thus you could get 200 feet in, maybe as much as 250 since the locker is an upside down triangular space and the volume gets much bigger as the base (now upside down) expands. If you were to use 3/8" instead, the smaller line, though 3/4 as large in diameter as the 1/2", only takes up about 9/16ths as much space based on the cross sectional area*.

This works out providing the smaller line doesn't waste any extra volume in the locker between the loose coils. The specs in the Marisafe catalogue say that the gypsy will work with 1/2" to 3/8" three strand line. I talked with a product advisor at Marisafe about this, and the reccomendation was based on conversions to English measurement units from the metric range given by the manufacturer. He was a little concerned that the smaller line might jam in the windlass, but Clammer, on the other site, uses his Sprint 600 with 5/16', although he says in a post there, that he has to keep some tension on the line for it not to slip.

All of these windlasses have a tension finger on the side of the gypsy that goes down into the locker that holds the rope against the gypsy and in the grove to help assure this feed in and out. Probably the 5/16" is one size too small to fit tightly against the gypsy, even with the finger-feeder (slips through underneath in the gap).

Assuming the 3/8" line only occupies 9/16ths as much volume as the 1/2", you should therefore be able to get 16/9ths as much feet of rope in the locker at the smaller diameter. This means that instead of 200-250 feet you could get

16/9 x (200-250ft) = 355-445 ft of 3/8" in an extended locker or

16/9 x 150 ft = 267 ft in the conventional unmodifed locker

These, of course, are guesses made with math that make the assumption above.

If you extended the locker with a higher wall to the rear, it would be smart, I'm guessing, to hinge the rear flap addition to get access to a snarl, and to drill a lot of small air holes in the flap to assist the drying out of the line.

*The 16/9ths ratio is based on the volume of the cross sectional area of the rope, which is what takes up the space along with the empty air between the coils. The area of this cross section (circle) is A= 3.14 x radius squared, and

Area of 1/2" rope is 3.14 x (3/8x 38) = .441562 Sq in.

Area of 3/8" rope is 3.14 x (1/2 x 1/2) = .785 sq in.

and .785 divided by .441562 = 1.777777 = 16/9ths

Sorry about the nerdy discussion, but I though I'd offer an explanation in case the figures and ratios seemed out of line or illogical.

Of course, you could also cut away the wall of the existing rode locker and add a newer one aft of the old locker which would hold a lot more rope.Too bad there isn't a fairly simple way of putting a spool down in this area as the line takes up a lot less space stored that way. The Powerwinch 24 I had before spools up 100 feet of 3/16" nylon three strand a spool about 7 inches wide by about 4 inches in diameter.

There's a nice benefit to these smaller lines, within limits, of course. The smaller lines exibit the stretch we want out of the nylon and the three-strand construction that you hardly notice with 1/2" line. The 3/16" line has a breaking strength of 1200 lbs, and when stretched to 15% of that limit (180 lbs) will stretch 16% in length, or 16 for the full 100 ft! When I put the whole shebang out, the boat rode like it was on a giant rubber band, and the elasticity actually helped the boat ride better than a stiffer, larger diameter. The unfortunate part, however, is that an anchor stuck between rocks might never come back up with only 1200 lbs of muscle, and that it would be hard to sleep at night with a 3/16" line holding you off a rocky shoreline... Maybe the 3/8" line would be a better and a good compromise for breaking strength and abrasion considerations.

Anyway, it's fun to think about! Next time a go up to my boat, I'll try to test some 3/8" line to see how the gypsy handles it. Joe.



From: Sea Wolf Sent: 12/19/2002 11:59 AM
Mark- P.S.- To get the 600 feet of 3/8" line inside the C-Dory, it would probably therefore be necessary to enlarge the locker a bit more than just adding to the height of the existing wall. Maybe you could cut it out slightly above the bottom (retaining the bottom 1/3 or so, and then adding a new wall angled backward at the top to provide the extra space.

The Windlass has to go in front of the bow cleat (unless you move the cleat back), and some space must be left for the bottom part of the windlass (gearcase and motor assembly). A top mounted horizontal windlass would get the assembly out of the cabin, but I don't think the 90 degree wrap of a horizontal windlass will work as well with rope, especially smaller rope, compared with the 180 degree wrap you get with a vertical windlass. (I also like the cleaner deck and looks better of the vertical design.)

If you angle the rear wall back this way with a hinged/drilled top flap, you can probably get the required volume easily without having to loose much usable v-berth space or modify the cushion below.

However, I've learned not to make too many assumptions until I've looked the boat over carefully and made some measurements, as what one can imagine in one's mind doesn't always work out because we only have approximations of the space, distance, and volume considerations available from our memory. Let me know what you think about all of this. At least it gives us something to do to relieve all this CABIN FEVER during the long, slow, rainy, and (for some) snowy winter!!! Joe.

From: Mike Sent: 12/20/2002 12:44 AM
Joe -

The rode locker in my 22 Cruiser holds 300' of 1/2" rope and 15' of 1/4" chain. The rope fills it about level with the top of the locker, and the chain coils on top, settling down into the surface of the rope pile. I was a little concerned when I first put it in there, because the new, dry and stiff rope filled it several inches above the wall. However, after the first couple of uses, the weight of the wet rope shoved it down some, and it has only spilled over one time. I do intend to put a hinged extension on the partition to make it a little higher, but that is to keep the water splatter inside the locker. I would imagine it would hold twice as much 1/2" rope easily with the added height.

You will be pleased with the ability of the locker to hold whatever you choose to put in it. The rope coils around very neatly, and uses almost all the available space. It is actually amazing how well the line lays in there. Never had a tangle or problem with it.

Mike

From: Mike Sent: 12/20/2002 12:52 AM
And speaking of the rode locker... When I put the windlass on and started using the locker, I had to put a drain fitting in. What I chose for the fitting is a chromed fuel tank vent, with the open side turned at about 60 dgrees aft. I took the screen out of the vent, sealed around the threaded thru-hull tube, brought the nut up tight, and then cut off the excess length of the thru-hull tube. It works great, looks great, and is sheilded from spray without the three extra screw holes required to put the standard shield over the drain.

Next up: Reports on the electronic line counter installations on at least two boats with windlasses. (Joe - Kay took your counters to the Post Office Wednesday.)

From: Sea Wolf Sent: 12/20/2002 7:21 AM
Mike- Great comments! I''ve only had the set up in my boat for a couple of weeks now, and haven't had a chance to let it "settle" in yet. The drain is a great addition that I've put off as of yet, but know I'll have to do it soon. There are, however, a few who have never put in the drain, but I think those without a drain use all chain, usually.

Mark- How about taking your 600 feet of 3/8" rode and (with a friend helping) trying to simulae gently droping it into the locker (wet, so it will compact fully) just to see if it will "fit" with the locker as is?

Guys- Another idea: how about a small blower/fan, such as the ones used in the power supply units of computers, to help dry out the rode? The amperage drain would be minimal, and would go off when you turned the main switch off at the battery when putting the boat away. To be functional, it would have to have some opening or source or vent to fresh air, otherwise the air circulation would be useless once the air in the locker area becomes saturated with moisture. On the other hand, maybe a large enough drain hole would work alone in a passive mode, since heavy moisture laden air can escape downward and thus draw in fresh air through the cabin. It's a lot simpler, too. Has anyone had any problems with mildew or odor from a wet locker? How big is the diameter of the drain hole in the fuel vent, Mike? Do those of you in salt water flush the locker/rode out with fresh water? Joe

From: Mike Sent: 12/20/2002 1:24 PM
Joe -

The fuel vent I used had a hose barb for 5/8" hose, so the hole through it is just under 1/2" diameter. We have used the rode locker for just one season, but have yet to notice any mildew or odor.

When I drilled though the hull, I used an angle drill on the inside to postion the hole as near the bottom of the locker as possible. I used a small drill first, and then went in from the outside of the hull to enlarge it.


Mike

From: Sea Wolf Sent: 12/20/2002 9:30 PM
Mike- I bought the fuel vent assembly today at West Marine. It will be a week or two until I can get up to the boat to install it because of Christmas family get-togethers, etc. Thanks for all the help, advice, and the counters! Joe

From: 2nd Byte Sent: 12/22/2002 9:32 AM
Joe, thanks for the wealth of information. I would much prefer to stay with the 3/8" 3 strand line if possible. It is encouraging to hear that MariSafe says that it will work with line down to 3/8". I guess the operative words are "how well" it will work with 3/8". You do make an excellent point on the probability of better results with the 180 degree wrap of the vertical windless. I like the cleaner deck of the vertical footprint as well. I considered the prospect of hinging a slant back flap to contain the rode and provide the extra room for it. Good idea on laying the rode in the locker now, while wet, to see how it would lay out. I should have done that this past fall. Right now we are running 10 below zero and the liklihood of temperatures to allow that particular exercise over the next 4 or 5 months are nil. It will get a lot colder fefore it gets much warmer.

Good point on not making assumptions, seems like no matter how much time I spend calculating the options/outcome of a project, adjustments and changes are the norm. My feeling is that the sloped back flap would probably contain my 600' of 3/8 and 15' of 1/4" chain. The critical ? would be how well the windlass would handle the 3/8" line.

Mark

From: 2nd Byte Sent: 12/22/2002 9:44 AM
Mike, sounds like a great way to go, using a fuel tank vent for the rode locker. I like that idea much better than the more typical installation of the three screw shield.

I'll be waiting with "baited Breath" to hear your up-coming report on the electronic line counters. Those sound like the best thing since canned beer.

Mark

From: Mike Sent: 12/22/2002 1:07 PM
I ran out in the rain and took a picture of the rode locker drain fitting on the TyBoo. I was really pleased with finding the thing when I was looking for a through-hull drain to install.

I also snapped a photo of the rode locker full of 300' of 1/2" rope and 15' of chain, as placed in it by the windlass. It holds it just fine, but I still intend to put a hinged extension on the bulkhead to keep the water contained in the locker when retrieving the line.

The pictures aren't that great, but maybe if old Red Fox stops by on his way through I can have him get some professional shots.

Mike

From: Sea Wolf Sent: 1/6/2003 7:57 AM
C-Brats- Here's an e-mail response to a question posed to me by a member. I thought the answer would be of interst too all.

Joe- I recollect you installed the Aires 500 Vertical Windless. I am in the
> process of considering my options. Did you get any photos of your
> installation? How do you like this unit by now?
>


I'm very happy with the unit. I'm absoloutly sure that it is every bit as
good as the Simpson-Lawrence 600, and actually better. The
performance is flawless. The worksmanship is first-class, as good as it
gets. The motor is a 500 watt unit, not a 250 watt, as on the 600. (The
Sprint 600 motor is 250, the Horizon 600 is 400 watts, and the Sprint 400,
500, and Horizon 400 and 500 are all 250 watts. The Aires Quick 500 has
more guts than any of them. The motor is arranged horizontally below
decks, not vertically, so it wastes less space in the v-berth and rode
locker. The controls are fully developed, with separate solenoid, on-off,
circuit breaker, and up/down switches. The gypsy has a magnet on it and
a proximity switch in the base, which, when hooked up with 12 volts and a
counter such as the one Mike Barber supplied me with, becomes a line
out meter which reads in feet. The only possible draw back I can see with
the unit is that since its not widely distributed in the U.S., parts may have
to be ordered from Italy by Marisafe, but that'[s only a thepory, I haven't had
any such need at all. The e-bay price of $409 plus $25 shipping is well
less than half the $999.99 price from West Marine (+ tax, since they have
an outlet in your state)!!!

I'm going to post pictures of the unit and the completed counter set-up on
the C-Brats Website asap. I'll include this discussion under one of the
threads as well for others to know about. Photos asap in the album. More questions? Send me a
line. Joe

>
>
>

From: Blackfinn Sent: 1/19/2003 9:03 AM
Hi Joe,
I just wanted to say thanks for all the research you did on windlass selection. I was planning to get the Horizon 600 until I read your reports. I managed to get one through Marisafe's eBay auction just as you did, which saved me a bundle. And I'm sure that I'll appreciate its smaller footprint on the bow. I'm intrigued by the rode counter you fabricated, but I'm not sure I have the space on the dash for it. I may have to wait until my bank account recovers and spring for one of their hand held remotes with built in chain counter. Anyway, thanks again for your research and excellent photos.
Al the Blackfinn

From: Mike Sent: 1/19/2003 7:24 PM
Joe -

Like Al, I wanted to thank you again for all the research and spelling it out on here in great detail like you did. It is helping people already. I had never heard of, nor stumbled across on the WWW, that brand of windlass. It looks like it might be made for the CD hull.

I still haven't started the line counter install, but things are slowing down in the world, so maybe soon.

Mike

From: Sea Wolf Sent: 1/19/2003 7:55 PM
Al and Mike- Thanks for the comments. It was fun to search all the options out and write up the reports. And thanks, Mike, for the counter(s) and the idea. I'd be glad to help anyone else out with specifics and advice if needed. Joe.

From: C-DoryCheers Sent: 1/19/2003 11:20 PM
Joe

You get a chance to get a picture of that motor installation (windless) yet?


From: Blackfinn Sent: 1/20/2003 3:05 PM
Hi Joe,
What kind of cable did you use for the windlass installation? The only stuff I've seen so far is single conductor and it seems the cable you used is two-conductor, sheathed cable, a smoother look. Also, what gauge do you feel is necessary? The specs call for 4 ga. for a 40' return run, but Les has suggested 6 is adequate. Again, thanks.
Al

From: Mike Sent: 1/20/2003 9:13 PM
Al -

I had the same problem as you finding the wire I wanted. All the local marine store had in 2-conductor sheathed was 10 ga and below. I wanted to use 8, so I went with separate marine cables. The run from the connection to the 2 ga helm feed is only about eight feet, and the windlass documentation recommended 8 ga for 30' or so. The inline circuit breaker is 50 amp rated.

You are right about the 2-conductor cable looking cleaner. It is also easier to route and secure (using fewer clips). I used a bunch of 12-2 and 14-2 marine grade when I rewired my boat.

So, you're really wanting a windlass, huh? It was sure a great addition for us. I would have looked pretty hard at the unit Joe installed if I had known about it. Have no complaints with the Horizon 600, but less machinery above deck would be a nice touch.

Mike

From: Blackfinn Sent: 1/21/2003 3:14 PM
Mike,
While I haven't finished my research, it appears Ancor makes a 6 ga. duplex, which Les had advised should be sufficient. The trouble is, given the price of $5/ft., running from the starboard lazarette to the bow will likely exceed $100! And there goes some of my hard won savings from purchasing the Aires Quick in the first place. However, we must do what we must do.
Al

From: Sea Wolf Sent: 1/21/2003 4:41 PM
Guys-
Yes, I used the duplex 6-2 sheathed Ancor Red and Black wire from West Marine at about $5.00 a foot, only I bought it for half price through the Bargain Barn W-M Outlet here in Oakland. They only had enough of it at that price to do the front end to the windlass from the solenoid, so for the back I used 6 gauge red and black Anchor battery cable and wrapped it up as a single harness with black plastic electrical tape after cutting and adding the solderless connectors, then threaded it through under the gunnels. It's almost as nice that way as with the factory duplex wire. I'll get some pictures of the control switch, circuit breaker, and solenoid wiring and front panel apperance the next time I'm up at the boat in the Delta. Joe

From: C-DoryCheers Sent: 1/22/2003 10:50 AM
My back feels better already.
Joe -
Ordered the Windless this morning ($409.00 = 21.35 shipping). You did good, Thanks - I owe you.

Now for a Self-Launch Roller. Suggestions are welcome from anyone. I'm presently looking at this one:
SIMPSON LAWRENCE P/N 66840007, which ought to work well with my Danforth.

From: Mike Sent: 1/22/2003 8:58 PM
Bob -

Now then, when you buy something that I wish I had at least found before I bought a different one, it's OK to tell us about it. But when you get it for way less than I paid, you don't have to say that part.

That anchor roller looks like the same one I have (and B~C just got), and it works great. There are two models by SL that are the same except for the width. The one designed for the fluke style anchor is a bit narrower so the flukes will plant one on either side when full in. The next time you see B~C or me, ask for a piece of that sticky-back rubber to put under the end of the pivoting section to dampen the noise and the shock when the anchor hits home.

You did good getting the windlass. You and Brian will both be glad.

Mike

From: Sea Wolf Sent: 1/22/2003 9:40 PM
Bob- I have the S-L narrow pivoting roller. It works great with the Fortress Fx-16. I think it's the very best of the pivoting rollers. The one that Windline makes is a virtual copy of the wider one with black delrin rollers rather than white. You'll be very hap.py with it. Joe.

From: 2nd Byte Sent: 2/5/2003 11:39 AM
According to Marisafe, the Airies windless will work ok with the 3/8" rode. I have my windless on the way as of this morning. $409 plus 33 bucks shipping to Fairbanks. I'm going with the S.L. pivoting roller as well. Appreciate all the info and comments on this thread.

Now, I need to get clear in my mind, the wiring scheme for this little "backsaver". I really need to review my existing wiring. Probably should put a bus bar up front. Mike did a nice looking job on his electrical but technically ......he lost me.

Joe, regarding the 1/4" chain. Is there a required or recommeded "Mfg." or "Type" of 1/4" chain for the windless application, and if so what is it?

Mike, your drain setup for the locker looks pretty slick and I'm going to go that route. Also, the counter which you came up with and which Joe embellished with his "Black box" treatment would be a mighty slick addition. How high do I have to jump to squeeze into one of those.

Mark

From: Sea Wolf Sent: 2/5/2003 5:16 PM
2nd Byte- The chain HAS to be 1/4 inch High Test, G4 or Grade 40(same thing). Proof Coil and BBB have links that are too long and won't fit in the pockets in the gypsy. Of course, it must also be hot dipped galvanized. There's also and ISO # ___ designation, but I can't find the number in my catalogues. For the 10-25 feet you'll probably need, I'd just buy the Acco brand from the local chandeldry with the right to return it it (or just take the top unit with the gypsy along to the store. The correct chian fits in the pockets just like it was made for it, absoloutly perfectly.

I tried a local rigging supply and got some 1/4 inch high test hot dipped anchor chain that was not the right configuration (links too long, even though the working load and breaking strength were the same).

the joint between the chain and the rope has to be right. No shackle, just a back weave of the three strand into itself. Simpson-Lawrence, Powerwinch, West Marine and others make chain/rope rode combinations in ready made combinations of various chain/rope make-ups. West Marine also offers custom splicing of any combination you wish. (Page 691 of the 20022 catalaogue). Joe

From: 2nd Byte Sent: 2/5/2003 6:09 PM
Thanks Joe,

Thanks for all the info. Got it logged away. I'm going to stay with the 3/8" rope that I currently have but I think I'll bump my chain up to 25'. I may have to pull my deck pipe and plug it, but will wait until the windlass gets here. At that point I can lay things out and see if it's going to be neccessary. With luck, maybe I can leave the existing deck pipe alone.

Mark

From: C-Diver (Original Message) Sent: 2/15/2003 8:44 AM
Mike-
I got a brand spankn' new S/L 600 windlass from Santa this Christmas...I ordered the wiring kit from West Marine. It came with 6 gauge wire and a very undersized crimping tool, not to mention not enough lugs...Anyway, when I install the windlass, the directions say to put the circut breaker as close to the battery as possible..I have an 86 Angler and the battery is in the starboard stern section of the well and I was wondering if I should install the breaker there (seems to be a tad exposed) or just run it to the helm?? How did you do yours????
Thanks-
C-Diver

From: Sea Wolf Sent: 2/15/2003 9:22 AM
C-Diver- Please excuse this intrusion on you question with Mike. I'll ask you to reserve your judgement until after Mike has added his answer to your question, but I couldn't help but be intrigued by your question and specifically by the S-L instruction to place the circuit breaker as close as possible to the battery.

The circuit breaker will work to limit the load on the motor and solenoid anywhere along the feed circuit from the battery to the solenoid. However, it's a lot more convenient to have it on the dash panel along with the up/down switch where it can turn off the whole circuit more easily. It's also much more out of the rain, weather, etc., there as well. So why the perscription to place it back by the battery?

The only reason that i can think of is to protect the 12-15 feet of cable from the battery to the dash from shorts and the resulting fire hazard. The 6-gauge wire (battery cable, really) is big stuff, and a short resulting from vibration wear on the insulation could cause a massive short out if grounded to a heavy metal conductor, such as a metal pipe, or metal hull.

Fortunately, with the fiberglass C-Dory and with careful routing of the cable, good rubber grometed wire supports, and nylon wire ties, this danger can easily be minimized and the circuit breaker placed up front where it is better located for those reasons mentioned above.

If you're unsure about this line of reasoning, go to the Simpson-Lawrence website, and get the telephone number of the technical sales representative and talk it over with him. (I have never discussed this specific question, however.) The one I talked to about 5 months ago told me a wealth of things that you never see discussed in their catalogues. Hope this helps sort things out.

Mike, what do you think? Joe

From: Da Nag Sent: 2/15/2003 9:29 AM
Howdy, Kurt.

From what I've read here and elsewhere, you want the circuit breaker closer to the battery when using the larger gauge wire. It's a fire concern, I believe - 6g is plenty big enough to cause some nasty damage if there's a short between the battery and the circuit breaker.

I crunched the numbers, and since I've got 6' less run than a 22, I used 8g and mounted my circuit breaker up front. While I'm fairly comfortable with this setup, I probably should have added a breaker in the back, and it's on the list to do some day...

RE your connectors - if West Marine is close by, they'll probably install them for you, or at least let you use their heavdy duty tool. My local one offered this service.

A great tip that was given to me on the windlass switch - if you have an opening front center window, a great location to mount it is on the small vertical section just under the starboard fixed window. This allows you to operate the windlass from the front deck through the window if necessary, and only results in a short stretch from the helm.

Bill

From: Mike Sent: 2/15/2003 9:42 AM
Hi C-Diver -

I ran 2 ga marine battery cable all the way from the second battery to the back of the helm station and hooked it through a single pole master disconnect switch. I also put a high capacity circuit breaker aft near the battery to protect the cable. Then I was able to wire the windlass right from the helm station. I wanted to have the breaker for the windlass at the helm and in the open so I could trip it manually when the windlass is not in use. It could be ugly if the windlass switch failed and closed the contacts (I think the S/L instructions advise tripping the breaker when not in use.) I worry a lot, you see.

It is always a good idea to have circuit breakers close to the battery. The bigger the wire, the hotter it gets before it melts in two. There is nothing wrong with using two breakers in a line. They don't do a thing until you need for them to. Just make sure you are using totally sealed marine type components. Not only do the sealed breakers last longer, they do not allow the spark to be exposed to potentially explosive vapors. I really like the Blue Sea Systems line of products. The sales people like them, too, as evidenced by the prices.

You'll really like the windlass!

Mike

From: Da Nag Sent: 2/20/2003 1:57 PM
Kurt,

Just posted a photo of the windlass switch location I mentioned above.

Bill

From: 2nd Byte Sent: 2/20/2003 11:54 PM
Bill, I was just looking at the picture of the tentative location for your toggle switch which you poste on message 5. The steering wheel is going to be in the way and probably develop into a long term nuisance. What about putting the switch on the flat right under the Yamaha gauge. You would have clear unencumbered access to the switch at that location.

Mark

From: Blackfinn2 Sent: 2/22/2003 2:03 PM
Hi Guys,
For what its worth, I plan to mount the trim tab rocker switches down and to the right of the throttle/shift lever controls. I fabricated a little box out of Starboard just big enought to house the switches and connections and fastened it to the same piece of plywood the throttles/shift controls are screwed to. There's plenty of room there, though just enough, and I think it will be convenient. Since I'm always fiddling with the throttles anyway, all I have to do is drop my right hand to tweak the rockers. And no sense using up valuable space on the dash with stuff that doesn't necessarily need to be there. Anyway, just another alternative.
Al

From: Mike Sent: 2/24/2003 8:29 PM
The last seven messages were moved from a like titled thread on another CBTech message board. I figured they would best serve everybody here.

Mike

From: tonka Sent: 3/2/2003 8:11 AM
Hi Joe,
Again, thanks for your good work on the Aries 500. Received mine via eBay and am impressed with its appearance. Looking forward to installing and using when the ice goes.

I would appreciate your thoughts and others on the best location for the solenoid. Had a chance to "visit" my boat in winter storage the other day and wasn't able to see an obvious place for it if I wanted it forward and near the helm station, where I would also place the breaker. Plenty of room in the starboard stern locker, but that might be too damp.

Thoughts, photos would all be appreciated.

Thanks!!

Duane

From: Blackfinn Sent: 3/2/2003 9:45 AM
Hi Duane,
Thanks to Joe's excellent research, I too have an Aires Quick 500 and am looking forward to ice out. I crawled in to the boat a few weeks ago to scope out places to mount the windlass, as well as other controls, and what I decided to do was to thru-bolt the solenoid to the panel down and to starboard of the steering wheel. When looking at it from the V-berth it would be directly left of the electrical panel. There seems to be enough room there. I plan to put the breaker switch and the up/down switches side-by-side directly below the steering wheel on the sloping section of fiberglass. It seems like a good spot, assuming I can avoid bumping them with my knees, because the fiberglass is thin in that spot and has no balsa behind it. I'll be interested to hear what you decide.
Regards,
Al

From: Sea Wolf Sent: 3/2/2003 6:25 PM
Hi Al, Duane: I too put the switches and solenoid in a row below the steering wheel. Starting from the left looking at the components from the rear of the panel, I have the up/down switch first. the breaker in the middle, and the solnoid on the right. They are in a line, because of other mountings nearby. This makes the best arrangement for operation as the u[/down switch is best located for right hand use, with the breaker in the center, and the solenoid, which has no control, to the left under your left hand which is on the wheel. The wiring makes good sense in this pattern as well. Hope this is helpful, Joe.

From: tonka Sent: 3/3/2003 9:17 AM
Hi Al and Joe:

Thanks very much for your responses. They will help me.

It seems like the area under the wheel is a good place for the switches. I did not see enough room there for the solenoid, but closer inspection in the spring may change that view. I thought the area to the left of the panel (looking from the v-berth side) appeared to have enough room for the solenoid, as you suggested, Al. Wiring it there might be a bit tight.

I would prefer putting all three pieces in a line, as you did, Joe. I just need to sort through all the wires there already to see if I can find room.

Thanks, guys

Duane
Tonka

From: C-DoryCheers Sent: 3/29/2003 2:55 PM
Hooray - my windless was checked out today & it works. A couple of more small projects and I'll see you at Cathlamet. Will post some pictures soon.

From: kenonBlue-C Sent: 3/29/2003 7:44 PM
EEEXCELLLENT, I'll bet Brian is a happy boater...he's going to get bored....you're going to wonder how you survived without the windlass

From: Mike Sent: 3/30/2003 8:48 PM
Hey, far out, Cheers! Does the line counter work, too? You're gonna love electric!

From: tonka Sent: 4/8/2003 7:41 AM
Hi C-Brats,

I need some of your thinking on the need for chain tensioners/anchor locks.

Every marine catalog I have suggests they are needed with a windlass and the manufacturer of my windlass, the Aries 500, recommends them. Quick (Aries 500 mfg.) says you should use a line tensioner, not the windlass, to keep the anchor snug in the bow roller as well as cleating the rode after anchoring, again to remove strain from the windlass. One big advantage for me in having a windlass is not having to go forward during the anchor excercise so one of these devices would negate that advantage.

So what is your experience? Do windlasses need help or not? Would greatly appreciate your collective wisdom.

Duane

From: Da_Nag™ Sent: 4/8/2003 2:09 PM
I'm sure somebody will point out what a fool I am, but judging from the other C-Dory owners I've seen with windlasses, I know I'm not alone...

I'm currently using nothing on mine - it's never budged, be it rough seas, or 800+ mile trips on the trailer. I have a tensioner, but never got around to installing it. When I do, there's no way I'll use it while under way, for the reasons you cite. Probably not a bad idea to use it while towing, though.

Bill

From: Mike Sent: 4/8/2003 2:36 PM
Hey Duane -

I think them windlass manufacturers state the need for the alternate holding device more for their lawyers than their engineers. The only time I use something other than the windlass to hold the line is when trailering - and then I just tie a chunk of rope between the bow cleat and the anchor shank hole. It would take a major failure of the drive components in the windlass to let go of the rope once it is under tension. My opinion: There's just as much chance of an external locking device failing.

On the other hand, if you are planning to anchor overnite or for some extended period, then it might be wise to run the rope around back of the windlass and secure it to the bow cleat. I believe that is what Roger Fishtales does when anchoring overnite down in his waters. It is simple and free if the need arises.

Mike

From: Mike Sent: 4/8/2003 5:05 PM
Duane -

Did you get that new windlass installed yet? It should be starting to thaw out a little for you back there. I was out digging around looking for something in my junk shed last weekend, and I found a couple more of the style of counters that Joe put on Sea Wolf for his Aires windlass. Here's a picture of his counter installation. Also on this thread (or one of the threads on this message board) is his very detailed installtion and connection description. If you want me to send you one of the spares, just email me your mailing address and I'll get after it for you. Your windlass already has a switch to fire the counter built in.

Mike

From: tonka Sent: 4/9/2003 6:52 PM
Thanks Mike and Bill for your responses. I feel better about not doing anything regarding a chain tensioner. Do like the suggestion of attaching a line to the anchor for trailering and I know I'd sleep better if the rode were cleated. Appreciate your advice.

Duane
Tonka

From: Mike Sent: 4/10/2003 8:43 PM
OK, Duane -

I got you all packaged up and addressed. And, oh boy, is that counter going to smell good. It's in an Irish Spring soap box! I'll get it to the P.O. ASAP.

Mike

[equip]

I have been reading all of the posts concerning windlessas. Good advice. I haven't purchased anthing yet. I have two questions for now, fist can the anchor locker vent through the windlass to dry out the rode? I plan on adding a door on the locker for more rode and to seal the odor from the berthing area. The second question is the exisiting anchor locker drain hole looks like 3/8 sufficent?

[Don and Brenda]

The boat originally had a Hawse hatch for the rode, I just installed a Lemar V700 with 50' of chain and 200' of 8 plait line. I will eventually add a door also the Hawse pipe stayed so will vent also.

[ghone]

I just installed a Lewmar pro series 700H. See my album. The boat came with a hawse pipe and now has the windlass hole I found without the windlass, the rode would dry so should be no problem. The drain hole if clear of debris is helping also.

[Sea Wolf]

[equip]

Thank you Joe for the info. Another question what do you think about "Free Fall". I am assuming that the winches I have been reading about the Aires Quick, and Simpson Lawrence Horizon do not have the "Free Fall" feature. I am thinking that with some experience it is not nessary. What do you all think?

[ghone]

Hi having just installed a windlass I asked myself the same question. I decided that I didn't want the dramatic noise and violence of a self launching system with potential for damage to the bow etc. my style of cruising is to "not be the show". I like it when I can come in and get anchored and folks then notice me there. I have always gone forward on my boats and untied the anchor from its holdback and dangled it off the bow a few feet. Then when I have my spot selected lower slowly so the rode pays out as I drift or make sternway. I think the free fall would be good for fisherman who want a quick stop, but the noise of launch may scare fish. A windlass's job is to retrieve anchors, big ships let free fall as there isn't much choice, little boats with light gear don't need to. George

[Sea Wolf]