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commander bill
Joined: 05 Nov 2006 Posts: 50 City/Region: Centre
State or Province: AL
C-Dory Model: R-25 Tug
Vessel Name: LenaBell
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: sulfer in fuel |
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I will be picking up my Ranger tug soon. Marc is haqving bottom paint put on. Weather here in Tennessee valley is so poor that I look forward to the few days in Florida just to get away. My question to any Yanmar diesel owners in use of off road diesel. In Alabama & Tennessee farmers can buy dyed red off road diesel fuel about 30 cents below road fuel. Since I have 2 Kubota tractors I have a truck bed tank and another fuel storage at my farm where I keep a supply of off-road diesel. According to suppliers this fuel includes mostly old style (high or low sulfur) fuel rather than the ultra-low sulfur fuel that I ude in my powerstroke. I understand the issues of reduced lubricity and how newer designed engines are supposed to handle the lower sulfur content without damage but that is not my question. Does anyone know of a reason (wareenty or otherwise) why I should not put the old style fuel in a Yanmar marine engine. Since I am already setup for transporting fuel for my tractors I would like to use it in the boat. I have seen the warning signs that say the old style fuel may damage the newer 2007 engines but assume that is the fuel company lawyers talking. |
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tsturm
Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 1135 City/Region: Soldotna
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2003
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: JMR TOO
Photos: JMR-TOO
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: Re: sulfer in fuel |
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commander bill wrote: | I will be picking up my Ranger tug soon. Marc is haqving bottom paint put on. Weather here in Tennessee valley is so poor that I look forward to the few days in Florida just to get away. My question to any Yanmar diesel owners in use of off road diesel. In Alabama & Tennessee farmers can buy dyed red off road diesel fuel about 30 cents below road fuel. Since I have 2 Kubota tractors I have a truck bed tank and another fuel storage at my farm where I keep a supply of off-road diesel. According to suppliers this fuel includes mostly old style (high or low sulfur) fuel rather than the ultra-low sulfur fuel that I ude in my powerstroke. I understand the issues of reduced lubricity and how newer designed engines are supposed to handle the lower sulfur content without damage but that is not my question. Does anyone know of a reason (wareenty or otherwise) why I should not put the old style fuel in a Yanmar marine engine. Since I am already setup for transporting fuel for my tractors I would like to use it in the boat. I have seen the warning signs that say the old style fuel may damage the newer 2007 engines but assume that is the fuel company lawyers talking. |
The sulphur is a lubricant. The old fuel in 07 & newer will not meet emissions requirements & may plug a Cat. Converter.
I would not hesitate to use real diesel in the boat. It works fine in yanmar powered equipment. |
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Fairbro
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 313 City/Region: Prescott
State or Province: WI
C-Dory Year: 2001
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Minnie Swann
Photos: Minnie Swann
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: |
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It has always been my understanding that the agricultural use fuel is dyed in the first place to prove that it is being used inappropriately/ illegally. I think agricultural purpose fuel gets a tax break not applicable to pleasure boats or automobiles, hence the lower price. I always thought if you were caught using dyed fuel in a non agricultural engine that you could be heavily fined for tax evaision. NOT THAT I WOULD EVER CARE. If I were ever lucky enough to own a great boat like yours I'd take the zero risk route. Congrats', G _________________ Gary & Gerrie former Minnie Swann owners
It's something in the water! |
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JamesTXSD
Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 7447 City/Region: from island boy to desert dweller
State or Province: AZ
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: "Wild Blue" (sold 9/14)
Photos: Wild Blue
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:33 am Post subject: |
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Not to stray off topic, but it is my understanding that what is often called "ag use" is actually non-road use (thus, not having to pay road taxes). When putting propane in our RVs, we pay a lesser price than vehicles using propane for their main engine. That tug may be used as an RV while being towed, but that diesel sure isn't for road use. I would think that qualifies.
Down here, there is a different price for diesel at stations that have fuel for boats and land vehicles; same price for unleaded. BTW, we paid $2.89 for unleaded at the dock yesterday. |
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matt_unique
Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 1881 City/Region: Boston
State or Province: MA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: Napoleon
Photos: Napoleon
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: Diesel |
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JamesTXSD wrote: | Not to stray off topic, but it is my understanding that what is often called "ag use" is actually non-road use (thus, not having to pay road taxes). .... |
When you buy diesel from a marina, it will always be red. What you pump at the gas station for a truck is clear. (At least that is the case here in MA). I run Yanmar diesels in commercial boats and we only get the red fuel. _________________ Captain Matt
Former owner of Napoleon (Tomcat) Hull #65 w/Counter Rotating Suzuki 150's. |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 20848 City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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I am not sure what the law is currently--and it seems to vary by states. But at one time, pleasureboats had to run clear diesel, and commercial and charter boats could run dyed diesel. In some areas there was not enough pleasure boat traffic to justify separate tanks, so these fuel docks were given an exemption and all boats could use the dyed diesel.
Illinois, where my farm is, specifically states that you can not used dyed diesel in a pleasure boat (this could have been revoked, but this was what it was last time I checked.). We have dyed diesel tanks on the farm, but they are only for the tractors and agricultural use.
On the other hand, Texas state laws seem to allow dyed diesel in motor boats. Tennessee seems to have some tax on dyed diesel, for any use other than strictly agricultural use. Alabama seems to have the same minimal tax on diesel for agricultural and boats.
There is a thread on one of the yacht builders which implies that any of the currently sold diesel fuels should be OK in the Yanmar diesels. But the best course is to get it in writing from Yanmar. _________________ Bob Austin
Thataway
Thataway (Ex Seaweed) 2007 25 C Dory May 2018 to Oct. 2021
Thisaway 2006 22' CDory November 2011 to May 2018
Caracal 18 140 Suzuki 2007 to present
Thataway TomCat 255 150 Suzukis June 2006 thru August 2011
C Pelican; 1992, 22 Cruiser, 2002 thru 2006
Frequent Sea; 2003 C D 25, 2007 thru 2009
KA6PKB
Home port: Pensacola FL |
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Steamboat_Willie
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 19 City/Region: northern
State or Province: NJ
Vessel Name: Steamboat Willie
Photos: Steamboat Willie
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: RED vs CLEAR fuel in Yanmar Engines |
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I went to the Yanmar website and submitted an inquiry regarding clear vs red diesel fuel and they were kind enough to reply. I received the following reply from my local Yanmar regional rep here in NJ:
''The CLEAR, over-the -road, and the RED, off-road, diesel fuels are the same with the exception of the red dye that is added to the off- road diesel fuel. As there is no road tax paid on the off-road fuel, the red color allows it to be identified if being used illegally in an on-road vehicle. You can use either the Clear or Red diesel fuel in your Yanmar diesel
engine. We hope this information will be helpful to you.'' |
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breausaw
Joined: 18 Jan 2006 Posts: 1222 City/Region: Anchorage
State or Province: AK
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Triple J
Photos: Triple J
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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If you can’t get the old stuff keep a bottle of Stanadyne Fuel Additive handy, it puts the lubrication back in the ALSD. If you can’t find Stanadyne try Marvel mystery oil, it’s what I use in my 2000 Ford Power Stroke. _________________ Jay
2007 22ft C-Dory Triple J 2007-2012
2007 25ft C-Dory Triple J 2012-2018
Boatless for now but looking |
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Larry H
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 2041 City/Region: Tulalip,
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1991
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Nancy H
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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My understanding of this situation is...
First we had a diesel fuel which had sulfur.
Then, to clean up the exhaust, we went to Low Sulfur diesel.
Then, for still cleaner exhaust we now have Ultra Low Sulfur diesel.
In Washington, the newer fuels were first required for over-the-road vehicles, and the previous fuel was supplied for off road use.
Now the fuel docks have the newest fuel. The marine fuel was not as critical as road fuel because the marine engines did not require ULS diesel like the newest diesel cars and trucks, which cannot run on the older fuel.
I think this is the story, but my details are not guaranteed.
If I was buying a new diesel motor I would want to get the fuel specifications in writing from the factory and ask if the warranty depends on the use of a certain fuel.
Older marine and truck engines need a lubricity additive added to the newest fuel as the injectors and injection pumps were designed to be lubricated by the sulfur in the older fuel.
Please verify this information for your engine. _________________ Larry H
A C-Brat since Nov 1, 2003
Ranger Tug 27 ex 'Jacari Maru' 2017 - 2022
Puget Trawler 37 ex 'Jacari Maru' 2006-2017
1991 22' Cruiser, 'Nancy H'--1991-2006
Last edited by Larry H on Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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thataway
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 20848 City/Region: Pensacola
State or Province: FL
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 25 Cruiser
Vessel Name: thataway
Photos: Thataway
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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BigEddie,
Yanmar's reply is a bit niave, because some dyed diesels are higher sulfer content than the "on the road" clear. Eventually there may be only "one" diesel provided. However this is not the case currently in the US--nor is it the case world wide. Ulta Low Sulfur diesel costs more to refine. There are many engines which are not manditated to use ultra low sulfur diesel.
For instance in Mexico the marine and industerial diesel may still have 5000 PPM of Sulfur. Even the road diesel in Mexico is a phase in from 500 to 15 PPM and will not be complete until Sept 2009 (if then).
The question to Yanmar needs to be: "will the use of high sulfur or low sulfur diesel harm a 2007 engine"?
Then you need to find out what is the sulfur content of the dyed diesel which you might use. |
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DaveS
Joined: 01 Nov 2003 Posts: 3204 City/Region: Arlington
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 2004
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Sea Shift
Photos: Sea Shift
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:30 am Post subject: Re: RED vs CLEAR fuel in Yanmar Engines |
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BigEddieM37 wrote: |
''The CLEAR, over-the -road, and the RED, off-road, diesel fuels are the same with the exception of the red dye that is added to the off- road diesel fuel. As there is no road tax paid on the off-road fuel, the red color allows it to be identified if being used illegally in an on-road vehicle. ' |
This has always been my understanding of the reason for the "red dye".
I purchase "off road diesel" (ie: "red diesel") for my tractor and thereby am not charged road taxes for it. But I certainly would not use it in an "on-road vehicle" as I've heard that if the Wash. State Patrol find you using it the fines are tremendous! _________________ Dave S.
"Sea Shift"
C-Brat #16 |
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matt_unique
Joined: 27 Feb 2007 Posts: 1881 City/Region: Boston
State or Province: MA
C-Dory Year: 2007
C-Dory Model: 255 Tomcat
Vessel Name: Napoleon
Photos: Napoleon
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: Taxes |
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Incidentally, at least in MA if you buy fuel for your boat at an automobile service station you can submit the receipt and forms for a road tax refund. I never bothered with my former boat but with the Tomcat, if I do fill up at a service station while under tow for example I will make the effort. |
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captd
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 514 City/Region: Chain of Lakes
State or Province: MT
C-Dory Year: 1994
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Vessel Name: Kon Tiki
Photos: Hunky Dory
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: |
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Received a reply from Yanmar. They say: Any diesel sold from the pump nowadays, is ok. Diesel #2. Do not use any bio diesel.
Number 2 diesel comes from the same pot whether with dye or without. Red only identifies off road. As mentioned above, tax base ( price ) Is the big difference. Some states may try to get the road tax, but how can they if red is sold at the marinas. Off road, should be the key words.
I would fill the boat in any state with red , off the road fuel. Save the tax money.
Let God sort it out.
captd _________________ 100 ton Master
1986 Sport Craft 27 ft , 240 hrs Yanmar sold
2000 22 ft C-Dory (Hunky Dory) sold 2006
2007 25 R Ranger (Mis Dee) sold 2008
2009 25 R Ranger (Lucky Fin) sold
1994 22 ft C-Dory ( Kon Tiki ) |
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Larry H
Joined: 02 Nov 2003 Posts: 2041 City/Region: Tulalip,
State or Province: WA
C-Dory Year: 1991
C-Dory Model: 22 Cruiser
Photos: Nancy H
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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As captd said, the fuel is all the same now, except the off road has red dye.
In Washington(don't know about other states), the land gas stations emptied their diesel tanks and refilled with the new fuel and their relative large volume of sales diluted any remaining 'old' diesel with the new ULS diesel.
Marine fuel docks were not required to empty the tanks first and just put the new fuel in with the old. This, combined with lower sales volume, results in an unknown blend with unknown sulphur content. This should not be a problem for marine engines, but resist the urge to put any of that fuel(red dyed, no tax) into a new diesel truck or car. As diesel is sold and the tanks refilled, this problem will disappear. |
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